Board 8 > Pokémon Direct coming Thursday (6:30AM Pacific)

(+) Yeah! (+)

mnkboy907 posted...

Tbh I'd rather think the game was unfinished due to time constraints than think Game Freak purposely gave us a shit barebones story.

They've been doing that in like every game but one though, so it's certainly not out of character!

EDIT: And to be fair, it was probably a kneejerk reaction to how much people hated on SM/USUM for too much "story."

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HashtagSEP posted...

Obviously, people do like that, and that's cool. I don't, so I see it as more of a streamlining that I was okay with.

But its not streamlining if youre stopped every few moments for an irrelevant cutscene

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SantaRPidgey posted...

But its not streamlining if youre stopped every few moments for an irrelevant cutscene

I think people are misremembering how much rivals/etc. stopped you in previous games simply because they didn't actually have cutscenes.

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HashtagSEP posted...

They've been doing that in like every game but one though, so it's certainly not out of character!

Uh, disagree. X/Y is the only one that's maybe comparable, but the effort was still made to have a proper story (it just turned out bad).

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mnkboy907 posted...

Tbh I'd rather think the game was unfinished due to time constraints than think Game Freak purposely gave us a s*** barebones story.

Yeah, and on top of that, I'd be rather pissed if they actually thought "let's just make the first routes a lot prettier than the rest and hope the first impressions stick throughout the whole game and then release the game sooner" rather than prioritising those routes for the same reason, but not getting everything done because of time constraints.

I don't really mind the things I find lacking in the game because I believe its time constraints, but I would otherwise.

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mnkboy907 posted...

Uh, disagree. X/Y is the only one that's maybe comparable, but the effort was still made to have a proper story (it just turned out bad).

RBY: Child stops TR for reasons.
GSC: Child stops TR for reasons.
RSE: Cults fight to change the weather for ??? and child must stop them.
DPP: Child must stop new cult that has even less explained/thought out plan.

These were not good stories and not much effort was put into them.

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HashtagSEP posted...

I think people are misremembering how much rivals/etc. stopped you in previous games simply because they didn't actually have cutscenes.

Again, perhaps past few generations, but they used to only stop you when they wanted to battle. That's certainly something that we've gotten a lot more of in previous titles, so I'll go back to my point about SS mostly only being compared to the most recent previous titles in the topic.

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Yeah outside of maybe fifth gen, the story for Pokemon has always been weak

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HashtagSEP posted...

RBY: Child stops TR for reasons.
GSC: Child stops TR for reasons.
RSE: Cults fight to change the weather for ??? and child must stop them.
DPP: Child must stop new cult that has even less explained/thought out plan.

These were not good stories and not much effort was put into them.

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For your sake I hope you're just being purposely disingenuous. And even if you aren't and you really think Sword/Shield's main game is truly on the same level of those, then there's just nothing to be said to you.

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Im playing through diamond and black and white right now and its not even close to the amount youre forced to interact with hop.

Like Barry shows up out of nowhere, fights and ghosts, so it never feels tedious but always feels challenging. Black and white have multiple rivals that grow at different rates and are weaven through the story so even though they bother you a lot they're always different.

Hau is pretty much equally as bad, but somehow has less asinie things to say which is legit crazy because he only talks about how fun losing is and malasadas

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HashtagSEP posted...

These were not good stories and not much effort was put into them.

I think when people complain about lack of story, it's often tied to lack of things to do aside from battling gyms. People liked that when you came to Celadon City, you didn't only beat Erika, you also fought TR and beat their boss. People liked that when you traveled over Mt. Chimney, it wasn't just a few trainers and a new patch of tall grass, you made a difference here (and they even added "normal" trainers afterward). There is basically nothing of this in SS. I'm sure people had complained less if a bad story sidetracked you a bit now and then throughout the game. At least that's my impression.

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mnkboy907 posted...

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For your sake I hope you're just being purposely disingenuous. And even if you aren't and you really think Sword/Shield's main game is truly on the same level of those, then there's just nothing to be said to you.

Those are literally the stories. If you're arguing that there's more to do WITHIN those "stories," such as dungeons, then yes, you are correct, but that's a different argument. The overarching story in most Pokemon games is very barebones.

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Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people that don't like SwSh are wrong.

I'm merely explaining why people like me like some of the stuff SwSh did.

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ctesjbuvf posted...

I think when people complain about lack of story, it's often tied to lack of things to do aside from battling gyms. People liked that when you came to Celadon City, you didn't only beat Erika, you also fought TR and beat their boss. People liked that when you traveled over Mt. Chimney, it wasn't just a few trainers and a new patch of tall grass, you made a difference here (and they even added "normal" trainers afterward). There is basically nothing of this in SS. I'm sure people had complained less if a bad story sidetracked you a bit now and then throughout the game. At least that's my impression.

Yes, this. I feel like that should be obvious. But it is SEP and he loves to find any opportunity to argue semantics.

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mnkboy907 posted...

Yes, this. I feel like that should be obvious. But it is SEP and he loves to find any opportunity to argue semantics.

Well, semantics are important when you're discussing story.

Fighting Aqua/Magma at Mt. Chimney, for instance, is content... But what does it actually do for the story? Fighting Team Rocket underneath the Game Corner is content, but what does it actually do for the story?

If your argument is that previous games had more story content, then I'll agree with you. I'll just disagree how worthwhile that content is to the overall narrative/how strong the narrative actually is.

The stories/narratives are extremely barebones in most Pokemon games. Some just have more to do than others, but sometimes it feels like a checklist moreso than actually advancing a story.

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Those are probably the two scenes that add the most to the story. I would argue thats the story element the modern games miss the mark on.

Team Rocket's hideout fills out the actual world of pokemon. The villain has a hideout thats under a casino they funded. Its a tangible place you can go into and see the values and incompetency of team rocket as a whole. The story of red and blue is also maybe the best story pokemon ever did. As a kid you feel Red stops team rocket by being strong, but as an adult you realize it was Giovanni repeatedly encountering a strong trainer as a child with strong ideals that made him no longer able to ignore his own.

Its a story that cant really be told in a modern game, so its not like I'm faulting new games for not doing the same thing, but, less is more storytelling doesnt mean a gutted story, it means a story thats shaved down to the essentials.

I havent beat the game yet but I kind of doubt anything hop has said in the past 30 hours was essential

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also the more i argue with sep, the more convinced I am that he is actually masuda

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Oh and I want to address the complaint that Black and White were also "linear"

I think the problem lies in the definition of the word "linear" and how it's used
Yes, there is only one way to advance the story - it's not like in RBY and GSC that you could beat the gyms in a different order. So in this sense, it is linear
However, B/W has tons of side areas to explore. Even the main areas has many paths to take. The "Dungeons" are not just a straight path like they are in SwSh. When you get a HM, you can backtrack and discover new items, new trainers, new legendaries, new places. Places like Relic Castle are totally optional
So in this sense, it doesn't feel linear at all

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HashtagSEP posted...

Well, semantics are important when you're discussing story.

Fighting Aqua/Magma at Mt. Chimney, for instance, is content... But what does it actually do for the story? Fighting Team Rocket underneath the Game Corner is content, but what does it actually do for the story?

If your argument is that previous games had more story content, then I'll agree with you. I'll just disagree how worthwhile that content is to the overall narrative/how strong the narrative actually is.

The stories/narratives are extremely barebones in most Pokemon games. Some just have more to do than others, but sometimes it feels like a checklist moreso than actually advancing a story.

It doesn't matter. It's those little things that you remember the most
There is an example that I like to give-
In GTA San Andreas, there is a mission that you fly back to Liberty City. Now in reality this version of Liberty City is just...3 buildings? and the mission itself is in a building so it's not like you get to explore the city
Doesn't matter - it just a extra step that get stuck in your brain because they did something extra. San Andreas was a great game, so why take the extra step and model a new location? clearly, the game could score 95 on Metacritic without this mission, but they did it anyway

Another good example I can bring is the Bridge Village in Pokemon BW
You can change the background music by talking to NPC. That was some extra step that I liked very much

A little bit of effort is all I ask

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All the towns had npcs that changed the music

acculama town's extra piano riff is my favorite piece of music ever

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also, the first town in sword and shield has houses with multiple rooms and theyre kinda seamlessly designed into each other and it was such a nice touch that I was impressed with.

but nope it was just the first town

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Oh god Accumula Town music
Can't get the Furret out of my head
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih9zBLDr_ro

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The only reason I've seen to call Black and White linear is that the route through the game is a straight line, as opposed to RSE and DPP where you would go to different places on the map as they opened up. But all three had the same amount of actual freedom in progression, only being able to skip Brawly and Winona's gyms between the 3 of them. But they all had optional side areas to explore, which is something that's been missing in games recently.
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Gen 2 just straight up doesnt have a storyline
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Mewtwo59 posted...

The only reason I've seen to call Black and White linear is that the route through the game is a straight line, as opposed to RSE and DPP where you would go to different places on the map as they opened up. But all three had the same amount of actual freedom in progression, only being able to skip Brawly and Winona's gyms between the 3 of them. But they all had optional side areas to explore, which is something that's been missing in games recently.

Gen 7 has plenty of optional areas that get ignored because they dont fit the narrative, but that doesnt matter apparently.
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Oh, right. But can you blame me for blocking Haina Desert from my memory?
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Mewtwo59 posted...

Oh, right. But can you blame me for blocking Haina Desert from my memory?

Its not just the desert- Like a solid third of the first island is blocked out by needing Tauros or Lapras, and many more are scattered throughout the game.
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Mewtwo59 posted...

The only reason I've seen to call Black and White linear is that the route through the game is a straight line, as opposed to RSE and DPP where you would go to different places on the map as they opened up. But all three had the same amount of actual freedom in progression, only being able to skip Brawly and Winona's gyms between the 3 of them. But they all had optional side areas to explore, which is something that's been missing in games recently.

Yeah lol. BW actually requires you to go back at times too - you need to go back to the desert resort to advance the story at least once, I think, and I want to say you go to Nacrene Museum as well?

But yeah BW is "linear" in the sense that it doesn't really have cities with multiple exits such as Saffron or Fuchsia, but it's really disingenuous to put it on SwSh's level in terms of actual gameplay linearity.

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