Current Events > Transgender Cyclist Wins Female Cycling World Championship

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gunplagirl 10/23/19 6:26:04 AM #101:	unpleasant_milk posted... This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports. So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it. --- https://i.imgtc.ws/x2KBsjI.png <cite>gunplagirl posted [p:929128219] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>unpleasant_milk posted...</cite> <quote>This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports.</quote> So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
unpleasant_milk 10/23/19 6:29:46 AM #102:	gunplagirl posted... unpleasant_milk posted... This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports. So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it. No. What's extreme is allowing transgender people compete against cis people, who don't have the biological strengths that are present in the former. Ruining competitive sports for the sake of trans inclusiveness is extreme, without any doubt. --- GT unpleasant milk #I want a poacher skin rug ~ http://imgur.com/a/V10yv <cite>unpleasant_milk posted [p:929128268] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>gunplagirl posted...</cite> <quote>unpleasant_milk posted...</cite> <quote>This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports.</quote> So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it.</quote> No. What's extreme is allowing transgender people compete against cis people, who don't have the biological strengths that are present in the former. Ruining competitive sports for the sake of trans inclusiveness is extreme, without any doubt.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
scorpion41 10/23/19 6:36:59 AM #103:	Women should boycott competing in individual sports that require strength and stamina every time theres a trans person entered in a game/race. That would shut stuff like this down pretty quickly. Give transgenders their own division or make them compete with men. --- PSN: scorpion_4160 Currently Playing: NCAA 14(PS3) <cite>scorpion41 posted [p:929128359] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Women should boycott competing in individual sports that require strength and stamina every time theres a trans person entered in a game/race. That would shut stuff like this down pretty quickly. Give transgenders their own division or make them compete with men.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 6:42:41 AM #104:	gunplagirl posted... unpleasant_milk posted... This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports. So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it. I think the sensible thing here is that we need to collect more evidence (not biological rational or concept), and then let the evidence guide decision making. The fact remains, there is not enough strong evidence to either end of the argument to support what should be an evidence based decision. There is just not enough well-controlled studies on this topic. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929128438] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>gunplagirl posted...</cite> <quote>unpleasant_milk posted...</cite> <quote>This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports.</quote> So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it.</quote> I think the sensible thing here is that we need to collect more evidence (not biological rational or concept), and then let the evidence guide decision making. The fact remains, there is not enough strong evidence to either end of the argument to support what should be an evidence based decision. There is just not enough well-controlled studies on this topic.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
gunplagirl 10/23/19 7:10:39 AM #105:	unpleasant_milk posted... gunplagirl posted... unpleasant_milk posted... This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports. So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it. No. What's extreme is allowing transgender people compete against cis people, who don't have the biological strengths that are present in the former. Ruining competitive sports for the sake of trans inclusiveness is extreme, without any doubt. So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though. --- https://i.imgtc.ws/x2KBsjI.png <cite>gunplagirl posted [p:929128843] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>unpleasant_milk posted...</cite> <quote>gunplagirl posted...</cite> <quote>unpleasant_milk posted...</cite> <quote>This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports.</quote> So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it.</quote> No. What's extreme is allowing transgender people compete against cis people, who don't have the biological strengths that are present in the former. Ruining competitive sports for the sake of trans inclusiveness is extreme, without any doubt.</quote> So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 7:13:42 AM #106:	gunplagirl posted... So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though. Do you enjoy hurting your credibility as a trans person who might have had some insight into this topic that could sway some opinions, because that is what you are doing, and intentionally for some reason --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929128899] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>gunplagirl posted...</cite> <quote>So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though.</quote> Do you enjoy hurting your credibility as a trans person who might have had some insight into this topic that could sway some opinions, because that is what you are doing, and intentionally for some reason</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
FursonaNonGrata 10/23/19 7:25:56 AM #107:	pinky0926 posted... gunplagirl posted... So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though. Do you enjoy hurting your credibility as a trans person who might have had some insight into this topic that could sway some opinions, because that is what you are doing, and intentionally for some reason Gotta love it when the user who consistently makes multi-paragraph posts against trans people in every single topic about trans athletes is somehow the one who gets to decide when trans peoples views arent credible. --- A.M.A.B. ~The Outlaw Country of Posting~ <cite>FursonaNonGrata posted [p:929129069] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>gunplagirl posted...</cite> <quote>So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though.</quote> Do you enjoy hurting your credibility as a trans person who might have had some insight into this topic that could sway some opinions, because that is what you are doing, and intentionally for some reason</quote> Gotta love it when the user who consistently makes multi-paragraph posts against trans people in every single topic about trans athletes is somehow the one who gets to decide when trans peoples views arent credible.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
unpleasant_milk 10/23/19 7:28:12 AM #108:	FursonaNonGrata posted... pinky0926 posted... gunplagirl posted... So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though. Do you enjoy hurting your credibility as a trans person who might have had some insight into this topic that could sway some opinions, because that is what you are doing, and intentionally for some reason Gotta love it when the user who consistently makes multi-paragraph posts against trans people in every single topic about trans athletes is somehow the one who gets to decide when trans peoples views arent credible. Did you forget to include an argument? feel free to edit and repost. --- GT unpleasant milk #I want a poacher skin rug ~ http://imgur.com/a/V10yv <cite>unpleasant_milk posted [p:929129108] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>FursonaNonGrata posted...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>gunplagirl posted...</cite> <quote>So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though.</quote> Do you enjoy hurting your credibility as a trans person who might have had some insight into this topic that could sway some opinions, because that is what you are doing, and intentionally for some reason</quote> Gotta love it when the user who consistently makes multi-paragraph posts against trans people in every single topic about trans athletes is somehow the one who gets to decide when trans peoples views arent credible.</quote> Did you forget to include an argument? feel free to edit and repost.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Esrac 10/23/19 7:28:18 AM #109:	FursonaNonGrata posted... pinky0926 posted... gunplagirl posted... So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though. Do you enjoy hurting your credibility as a trans person who might have had some insight into this topic that could sway some opinions, because that is what you are doing, and intentionally for some reason Gotta love it when the user who consistently makes multi-paragraph posts against trans people in every single topic about trans athletes is somehow the one who gets to decide when trans peoples views arent credible. He's right though. --- http://steamcommunity.com/id/Esrac/wishlist/ <cite>Esrac posted [p:929129109] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>FursonaNonGrata posted...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>gunplagirl posted...</cite> <quote>So yeah, ban cis athletes until they get the tools needed to put them on even footing and if that day never arrives then keep them banned in the interest of fairness to keep them from losing. Not sure why you had to repeat yourself like that, though.</quote> Do you enjoy hurting your credibility as a trans person who might have had some insight into this topic that could sway some opinions, because that is what you are doing, and intentionally for some reason</quote> Gotta love it when the user who consistently makes multi-paragraph posts against trans people in every single topic about trans athletes is somehow the one who gets to decide when trans peoples views arent credible.</quote> He's right though.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Hudawgy 10/23/19 7:30:51 AM #110:	gunplagirl posted... unpleasant_milk posted... This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports. So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it. I just want to point out that the majority of people don't use the word cisgender. Its just male and female based on actual sex. And the reality of it is, theres not many transgenders in the world, let alone enough trans athletes to actually form any sort of real sports leagues or events. So the simple solution is, people need to make a choice. Deal with their actual biological sex and try and be the best athlete they can be.. and save their transitioning stuff for after. Female athletes need to start pushing back against this. Because whats going on here is biological males, who would never be anywhere near the top of the heap in male sports, are being instantly elevated to a top spot when competing against females. ^And that isn't happening in male sports. <cite>Hudawgy posted [p:929129145] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>gunplagirl posted...</cite> <quote>unpleasant_milk posted...</cite> <quote>This is what happens when you let the politically correct driven mobs out shout the biological facts about gender strengths and science. All for the sake of their own agenda, to the detriment of a fair and balanced competitive playing field in sports.</quote> So if I'm hearing you right, you're suggesting that we ban all cisgender athletes until they undergo a second puberty and are on hormones for a period of 2+ years prior to having their eligibility restored, all in the interest of fair and even playing ground? Seems a bit extreme but if you can get the support behind it, I say go for it.</quote> I just want to point out that the majority of people don't use the word cisgender. Its just male and female based on actual sex. And the reality of it is, theres not many transgenders in the world, let alone enough trans athletes to actually form any sort of real sports leagues or events. So the simple solution is, people need to make a choice. Deal with their actual biological sex and try and be the best athlete they can be.. and save their transitioning stuff for after. Female athletes need to start pushing back against this. Because whats going on here is biological males, who would never be anywhere near the top of the heap in male sports, are being instantly elevated to a top spot when competing against females. ^And that isn't happening in male sports.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 7:34:10 AM #111:	FursonaNonGrata posted... Gotta love it when the user who consistently makes multi-paragraph posts against trans people in every single topic about trans athletes is somehow the one who gets to decide when trans peoples views arent credible. I think you have me confused with someone else. Usually I will defend trans people to the teeth. [Edit: Actually yes, you are correct, I missed the "athletes" part. This is a topic I will usually say is not as simple as "they are people, let them compete in whatever category they like". Where you are wrong is that I am somehow against trans people. Pointing out that biological sex creates a performance difference is not an insult to trans people, or it shouldn't be.] My only issue here is whether it's fair to biological women to have them compete against MTF women in sport (probably not), and whether there's enough evidence to support the decision to stop them competing against biological women (definitely not). Ultimately, there needs to be more and better studies. So to summarise, my issue here is really about how sport should categorise things, not how trans people should have their dignity harmed or their human rights affected. It's an important topic and just because I have opinions on it doesn't mean that I hate trans people, or whatever conclusion you've drawn. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929129200] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>FursonaNonGrata posted...</cite> <quote>Gotta love it when the user who consistently makes multi-paragraph posts against trans people in every single topic about trans athletes is somehow the one who gets to decide when trans peoples views arent credible.</quote> I think you have me confused with someone else. Usually I will defend trans people to the teeth. [Edit: Actually yes, you are correct, I missed the "athletes" part. This is a topic I will usually say is not as simple as "they are people, let them compete in whatever category they like". Where you are wrong is that I am somehow against trans people. Pointing out that biological sex creates a performance difference is not an insult to trans people, or it shouldn't be.] My only issue here is whether it's fair to biological women to have them compete against MTF women in sport (probably not), and whether there's enough evidence to support the decision to stop them competing against biological women (definitely not). Ultimately, there needs to be more and better studies. So to summarise, my issue here is really about how sport should categorise things, not how trans people should have their dignity harmed or their human rights affected. It's an important topic and just because I have opinions on it doesn't mean that I hate trans people, or whatever conclusion you've drawn.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
ColdOne666 10/23/19 8:36:44 AM #112:	The world is going insane. --- FFX is the best game of all time. Comics are for kids. https://imgur.com/LJ3WSyB . Germany and Great Britain should have been on the same side in WW2. <cite>ColdOne666 posted [p:929130270] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>The world is going insane.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 8:52:30 AM #113:	@FursonaNonGrata I get passionate about it because it's an interesting and relevant topic, but there's such terrible arguments being parroted on both sides of the fence so I find it hard to ignore. On one hand you have some saying "obviously they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women", but not providing rationale for why, and when pressed they end up saying something frankly mean-spirited. "Look at that jawline and tell me thats a woman", that kind of thing. At best it lacks any kind of credible argument, at worst it's hurtful and transphobic. These people ignore the obvious harm to trans people's dignity that is being done, and sometimes seem to have a nastier agenda in mind than wanting to protect the integrity of sport. And on the other side of the fence you have people saying "trans athletes have a fundamental right to compete like anyone else", which frames the argument as a human rights issue (which it primarily is not), as if sex categorisation in sport is just like any other sex discrimination in any other context. These people also tend to altogether ignore or downplay the role of T in sports performance, or otherwise skew statistics in such a way as if to say it's somehow irrelevant (example: men with low T sometimes outperform men with high T, therefore T is irrelevant"). I'm really not trying to be an "enlightened centrist" or anything, but all in all there are very bad arguments being made on both sides, it's maddening. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929130603] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>@FursonaNonGrata I get passionate about it because it's an interesting and relevant topic, but there's such terrible arguments being parroted on both sides of the fence so I find it hard to ignore. On one hand you have some saying "obviously they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women", but not providing rationale for why, and when pressed they end up saying something frankly mean-spirited. "Look at that jawline and tell me thats a woman", that kind of thing. At best it lacks any kind of credible argument, at worst it's hurtful and transphobic. These people ignore the obvious harm to trans people's dignity that is being done, and sometimes seem to have a nastier agenda in mind than wanting to protect the integrity of sport. And on the other side of the fence you have people saying "trans athletes have a fundamental right to compete like anyone else", which frames the argument as a human rights issue (which it primarily is not), as if sex categorisation in sport is just like any other sex discrimination in any other context. These people also tend to altogether ignore or downplay the role of T in sports performance, or otherwise skew statistics in such a way as if to say it's somehow irrelevant (example: men with low T sometimes outperform men with high T, therefore T is irrelevant"). I'm really not trying to be an "enlightened centrist" or anything, but all in all there are very bad arguments being made on both sides, it's maddening.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
FursonaNonGrata 10/23/19 9:14:50 AM #114:	Passionate about defending trans people except in the specific case of womens sports and then youre passionately against them (because its interesting) to the point where you tell trans people their arguments arent credible. Sounds good bud, Im gonna stop reading this topic. --- A.M.A.B. ~The Outlaw Country of Posting~ <cite>FursonaNonGrata posted [p:929131081] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Passionate about defending trans people except in the specific case of womens sports and then youre passionately against them (because its interesting) to the point where you tell trans people their arguments arent credible. Sounds good bud, Im gonna stop reading this topic.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Guide 10/23/19 9:17:02 AM #115:	As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing. --- formerly evening formerly guide https://youtu.be/Acn5IptKWQU <cite>Guide posted [p:929131134] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 9:17:25 AM #116:	FursonaNonGrata posted... Passionate about defending trans people except in the specific case of womens sports and then youre passionately against them (because its interesting) to the point where you tell trans people their arguments arent credible. Sounds good bud, Im gonna stop reading this topic. I'm against the arguments that say that testosterone is irrelevant to sports performance, because anyone should be against those arguments. It wouldn't be anti-women to say "women should not compete in the same category as men because of T reasons", but somehow it's anti trans to suggest the same for the same reasons? How does that work? And no, the reason gunplagirl is uncredible is because gunplagirl trolls relentlessly. Gunplagirl is not automatically credible on account of being trans. But it would be nice to get some genuine, well meaning insight from them because of their position. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929131142] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>FursonaNonGrata posted...</cite> <quote>Passionate about defending trans people except in the specific case of womens sports and then youre passionately against them (because its interesting) to the point where you tell trans people their arguments arent credible. Sounds good bud, Im gonna stop reading this topic.</quote> I'm against the arguments that say that testosterone is irrelevant to sports performance, because anyone should be against those arguments. It wouldn't be anti-women to say "women should not compete in the same category as men because of T reasons", but somehow it's anti trans to suggest the same for the same reasons? How does that work? And no, the reason gunplagirl is uncredible is because gunplagirl trolls relentlessly. Gunplagirl is not automatically credible on account of being trans. But it would be nice to get some genuine, well meaning insight from them because of their position.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 9:22:12 AM #117:	Guide posted... As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing. I agree with this. More effective data would be good. And if it was discovered that trans women have no advantage (on good rationale), I would reverse all my opinions completely. This was an interesting read below, but it's still really just the values of a single person and not conclusive to anything. https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/bk10jd/can_anyone_who_does_powerlifting_weigh_in_on_this/emysoto/ --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929131252] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Guide posted...</cite> <quote>As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing.</quote> I agree with this. More effective data would be good. And if it was discovered that trans women have no advantage (on good rationale), I would reverse all my opinions completely. This was an interesting read below, but it's still really just the values of a single person and not conclusive to anything. https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/bk10jd/can_anyone_who_does_powerlifting_weigh_in_on_this/emysoto/</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 10/23/19 9:54:29 AM #118:	jesus christ pinky you normally have pretty good takes on things but right now you just need to shut the fuck up --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:929132143] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>jesus christ pinky you normally have pretty good takes on things but right now you just need to shut the fuck up</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 9:55:53 AM #119:	averagejoel posted... jesus christ pinky you normally have pretty good takes on things but right now you just need to shut the fuck up Provide some discussion on this and we can talk it out. If you think I generally have "pretty good takes", you should respect that I will listen to your point of view, and be receptive to changing my own. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929132192] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>averagejoel posted...</cite> <quote>jesus christ pinky you normally have pretty good takes on things but right now you just need to shut the fuck up</quote> Provide some discussion on this and we can talk it out. If you think I generally have "pretty good takes", you should respect that I will listen to your point of view, and be receptive to changing my own.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
AwesomeToTheMAX 10/23/19 10:10:54 AM #120:	FursonaNonGrata posted... Passionate about defending trans people except in the specific case of womens sports and then youre passionately against them (because its interesting) to the point where you tell trans people their arguments arent credible. Sounds good bud, Im gonna stop reading this topic. Strawmen arguments usually aren't credible Also, cut the "you're either with us all of the way or against us" crap. You can be supportive of transgender women and their rights while not agreeing with them participating in pro sports with cisgender women. It's not mutually exclusive --- "shut the f*** up. There's no such thing as a "sniper rifle"." - tamagucci <cite>AwesomeToTheMAX posted [p:929132638] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>FursonaNonGrata posted...</cite> <quote>Passionate about defending trans people except in the specific case of womens sports and then youre passionately against them (because its interesting) to the point where you tell trans people their arguments arent credible. Sounds good bud, Im gonna stop reading this topic.</quote> Strawmen arguments usually aren't credible Also, cut the "you're either with us all of the way or against us" crap. You can be supportive of transgender women and their rights while not agreeing with them participating in pro sports with cisgender women. It's not mutually exclusive</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Hudawgy 10/23/19 10:12:25 AM #121:	pinky0926 posted... Guide posted... As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing. I agree with this. More effective data would be good. And if it was discovered that trans women have no advantage (on good rationale), I would reverse all my opinions completely. This was an interesting read below, but it's still really just the values of a single person and not conclusive to anything. https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/bk10jd/can_anyone_who_does_powerlifting_weigh_in_on_this/emysoto/ One glance at the total NBA roster compared to the WNBA roster pretty much sums it up. The men are better, faster and stronger. Watch any game from both leagues.. But at the end of the day. Whats happening is the result of pandering to Social Justice Activists. This is the rabbit hole. People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one. <cite>Hudawgy posted [p:929132694] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>Guide posted...</cite> <quote>As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing.</quote> I agree with this. More effective data would be good. And if it was discovered that trans women have no advantage (on good rationale), I would reverse all my opinions completely. This was an interesting read below, but it's still really just the values of a single person and not conclusive to anything. https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/bk10jd/can_anyone_who_does_powerlifting_weigh_in_on_this/emysoto/</quote> One glance at the total NBA roster compared to the WNBA roster pretty much sums it up. The men are better, faster and stronger. Watch any game from both leagues.. But at the end of the day. Whats happening is the result of pandering to Social Justice Activists. This is the rabbit hole. People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DBZFlGHTEH 10/23/19 10:13:22 AM #122:	AwesomeToTheMAX posted... FursonaNonGrata posted... Passionate about defending trans people except in the specific case of womens sports and then youre passionately against them (because its interesting) to the point where you tell trans people their arguments arent credible. Sounds good bud, Im gonna stop reading this topic. Strawmen arguments usually aren't credible Also, cut the "you're either with us all of the way or against us" crap. You can be supportive of transgender women and their rights while not agreeing with them participating in pro sports with cisgender women. It's not mutually exclusive THANK YOU --- Fools like me, who cross the sea, And come to foreign lands... Ask the sheep for their beliefs, Do you kill on God's command? <cite>DBZFlGHTEH posted [p:929132725] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>AwesomeToTheMAX posted...</cite> <quote>FursonaNonGrata posted...</cite> <quote>Passionate about defending trans people except in the specific case of womens sports and then youre passionately against them (because its interesting) to the point where you tell trans people their arguments arent credible. Sounds good bud, Im gonna stop reading this topic.</quote> Strawmen arguments usually aren't credible Also, cut the "you're either with us all of the way or against us" crap. You can be supportive of transgender women and their rights while not agreeing with them participating in pro sports with cisgender women. It's not mutually exclusive</quote> THANK YOU</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 10:16:05 AM #123:	AwesomeToTheMAX posted... Strawmen arguments usually aren't credible Also, cut the "you're either with us all of the way or against us" crap. You can be supportive of transgender women and their rights while not agreeing with them participating in pro sports with cisgender women. It's not mutually exclusive Not if you think being allowed to compete in the division of your choosing is a human right, and honestly that seems to be how these arguments are phrased and why there's so much divisiveness about it. In other words, this argument being framed as a human rights issue is a problem from the get go. If you treat it as a human rights issue, then any evidence you can present is entirely redundant. Personally, I don't think being allowed to compete in an elites sports division is a human right. Obviously, sport is fundamentally discriminatory, so we should approach it in a different way to say, workplace sex discrimination. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929132807] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>AwesomeToTheMAX posted...</cite> <quote>Strawmen arguments usually aren't credible Also, cut the "you're either with us all of the way or against us" crap. You can be supportive of transgender women and their rights while not agreeing with them participating in pro sports with cisgender women. It's not mutually exclusive</quote> Not if you think being allowed to compete in the division of your choosing is a human right, and honestly that seems to be how these arguments are phrased and why there's so much divisiveness about it. In other words, this argument being framed as a human rights issue is a problem from the get go. If you treat it as a human rights issue, then any evidence you can present is entirely redundant. Personally, I don't think being allowed to compete in an elites sports division is a human right. Obviously, sport is fundamentally discriminatory, so we should approach it in a different way to say, workplace sex discrimination.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
AwesomeToTheMAX 10/23/19 10:22:31 AM #124:	Yeah, it's never really been a human rights thing. Like how short people don't get selected for the NBA --- "shut the f*** up. There's no such thing as a "sniper rifle"." - tamagucci <cite>AwesomeToTheMAX posted [p:929132995] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Yeah, it's never really been a human rights thing. Like how short people don't get selected for the NBA</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 10:35:48 AM #125:	Hudawgy posted... People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one. I'll be honest, I don't really like this argument because it gets into that "they're not women" area, which I think is just kind of mean and unhelpful and tramples on their dignity. What we should just be saying is that "because of biological factors, they have a significant performance advantage that is unfair". It makes it less of a political issue imo. Testosterone is like the most perfect steroids course, and you wouldn't say a woman that takes steroids is no longer a woman. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929133410] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one.</quote> I'll be honest, I don't really like this argument because it gets into that "they're not women" area, which I think is just kind of mean and unhelpful and tramples on their dignity. What we should just be saying is that "because of biological factors, they have a significant performance advantage that is unfair". It makes it less of a political issue imo. Testosterone is like the most perfect steroids course, and you wouldn't say a woman that takes steroids is no longer a woman.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Sackgurl 10/23/19 10:43:01 AM #126:	there's been better data collected on transgendered person murder rates than "some youtuber googled 'trans percent of population' and compared FBI crime data statistics, and we should trust his argument because it reinforces beliefs we already had" since there is uncertainty in both "whether a murder victim who was transgendered was identified as such by the FBI" and "how many people are transgendered, or are trans in ways reflective of the victims of murder are", data confidence ranges have to be established here's a study that attempts to establish data ranges: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551594/ and here's one that identifies some further uncertainty not considered by the first, which advises caution about how to interpret some of its results: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551619/ the tldr is consistent with what sonicfan posted earlier: black/latin transfem people have significantly higher murder rates than black/latina cisfem people white people in general have much lower murder rates which means the noise is likely too great to make clear extrapolations about white transfem people--even a handful of miscounted cases would significantly alter the results. what we should definitely not be doing is relying on google results like "how many people are trans" and 'how many murder victims are trans', assuming those numbers have negligible uncertainty, and drawing conclusions on that basis alone. if it seems too easy that's because it is too easy. and if you trust a youtube video over published research, you're probably not interested in the truth --- LittleBigPlanet is like merging dress-up with a real game. <cite>Sackgurl posted [p:929133656] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>there's been better data collected on transgendered person murder rates than "some youtuber googled 'trans percent of population' and compared FBI crime data statistics, and we should trust his argument because it reinforces beliefs we already had" since there is uncertainty in both "whether a murder victim who was transgendered was identified as such by the FBI" and "how many people are transgendered, or are trans in ways reflective of the victims of murder are", data confidence ranges have to be established here's a study that attempts to establish data ranges: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551594/ and here's one that identifies some further uncertainty not considered by the first, which advises caution about how to interpret some of its results: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551619/ the tldr is consistent with what sonicfan posted earlier: black/latin transfem people have significantly higher murder rates than black/latina cisfem people white people in general have much lower murder rates which means the noise is likely too great to make clear extrapolations about white transfem people--even a handful of miscounted cases would significantly alter the results. what we should definitely not be doing is relying on google results like "how many people are trans" and 'how many murder victims are trans', assuming those numbers have negligible uncertainty, and drawing conclusions on that basis alone. if it seems too easy that's because it is too easy. and if you trust a youtube video over published research, you're probably not interested in the truth</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Hudawgy 10/23/19 10:44:46 AM #127:	pinky0926 posted... Hudawgy posted... One glance at the total NBA roster compared to the WNBA roster pretty much sums it up. The men are better, faster and stronger. Watch any game from both leagues.. But at the end of the day. Whats happening is the result of pandering to Social Justice Activists. This is the rabbit hole. People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one. I'll be honest, I don't really like this argument because it gets into that "they're not women" area, which I think is just kind of mean and unhelpful and tramples on their dignity. . But they are not women. Thats the reality of it all. It even says it in the title. "Trans" Woman. A real woman doesn't have the title "Trans'.. They are simply a woman. If this is about dignity. Then standing up for real woman should be the top priority, no? <cite>Hudawgy posted [p:929133723] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>One glance at the total NBA roster compared to the WNBA roster pretty much sums it up. The men are better, faster and stronger. Watch any game from both leagues.. But at the end of the day. Whats happening is the result of pandering to Social Justice Activists. This is the rabbit hole. People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one.</quote> I'll be honest, I don't really like this argument because it gets into that "they're not women" area, which I think is just kind of mean and unhelpful and tramples on their dignity. .</quote> But they are not women. Thats the reality of it all. It even says it in the title. "Trans" Woman. A real woman doesn't have the title "Trans'.. They are simply a woman. If this is about dignity. Then standing up for real woman should be the top priority, no?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 10:50:41 AM #128:	Hudawgy posted... But they are not women. Thats the reality of it all. It even says it in the title. "Trans" Woman. A real woman doesn't have the title "Trans'. They are simply a woman. If this is about dignity. Then standing up for real woman should be the top priority, no? Framing this argument towards the politics of gender ethics instead of towards physiological sex advantages in sport is how we got into this mess in the first place. For example, why should standing up for "real" women (I take that to mean biological women) take precedent over standing up for trans women? That conversation is entirely political, and not one you can easily answer, and one that will honestly just upset people and divide on the basis of personal values. The entire problem with this conversation is conflating sex and gender. Two things that are not the same at all but are often argued to be the same, confusing the debate. Whereas "Does T have an effect on sports performance?" is a much simpler question to answer and shouldn't hurt anyone's pride to acknowledge the single clear answer. From there you can make the next few arguments, "if T has an effect on sports performance, does it have enough of an effect to make categorisation reasonable?", and then "Is male/female an adequate level of categorisation, should there be more/less?" and so on. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929133941] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>But they are not women. Thats the reality of it all. It even says it in the title. "Trans" Woman. A real woman doesn't have the title "Trans'. They are simply a woman. If this is about dignity. Then standing up for real woman should be the top priority, no?</quote> Framing this argument towards the politics of gender ethics instead of towards physiological sex advantages in sport is how we got into this mess in the first place. For example, why should standing up for "real" women (I take that to mean biological women) take precedent over standing up for trans women? That conversation is entirely political, and not one you can easily answer, and one that will honestly just upset people and divide on the basis of personal values. The entire problem with this conversation is conflating sex and gender. Two things that are not the same at all but are often argued to be the same, confusing the debate. Whereas "Does T have an effect on sports performance?" is a much simpler question to answer and shouldn't hurt anyone's pride to acknowledge the single clear answer. From there you can make the next few arguments, "if T has an effect on sports performance, does it have enough of an effect to make categorisation reasonable?", and then "Is male/female an adequate level of categorisation, should there be more/less?" and so on.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 10/23/19 10:58:49 AM #129:	Sackgurl posted... there's been better data collected on transgendered person murder rates than "some youtuber googled 'trans percent of population' and compared FBI crime data statistics, and we should trust his argument because it reinforces beliefs we already had" since there is uncertainty in both "whether a murder victim who was transgendered was identified as such by the FBI" and "how many people are transgendered, or are trans in ways reflective of the victims of murder are", data confidence ranges have to be established here's a study that attempts to establish data ranges: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551594/ and here's one that identifies some further uncertainty not considered by the first, which advises caution about how to interpret some of its results: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551619/ the tldr is consistent with what sonicfan posted earlier: black/latin transfem people have significantly higher murder rates than black/latina cisfem people white people in general have much lower murder rates which means the noise is likely too great to make clear extrapolations about white transfem people--even a handful of miscounted cases would significantly alter the results. what we should definitely not be doing is relying on google results like "how many people are trans" and 'how many murder victims are trans', assuming those numbers have negligible uncertainty, and drawing conclusions on that basis alone. if it seems too easy that's because it is too easy. and if you trust a youtube video over published research, you're probably not interested in the truth @joe40001 look. this person was nice enough to do your homework for you --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:929134206] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Sackgurl posted...</cite> <quote>there's been better data collected on transgendered person murder rates than "some youtuber googled 'trans percent of population' and compared FBI crime data statistics, and we should trust his argument because it reinforces beliefs we already had" since there is uncertainty in both "whether a murder victim who was transgendered was identified as such by the FBI" and "how many people are transgendered, or are trans in ways reflective of the victims of murder are", data confidence ranges have to be established here's a study that attempts to establish data ranges: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551594/ and here's one that identifies some further uncertainty not considered by the first, which advises caution about how to interpret some of its results: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551619/ the tldr is consistent with what sonicfan posted earlier: black/latin transfem people have significantly higher murder rates than black/latina cisfem people white people in general have much lower murder rates which means the noise is likely too great to make clear extrapolations about white transfem people--even a handful of miscounted cases would significantly alter the results. what we should definitely not be doing is relying on google results like "how many people are trans" and 'how many murder victims are trans', assuming those numbers have negligible uncertainty, and drawing conclusions on that basis alone. if it seems too easy that's because it is too easy. and if you trust a youtube video over published research, you're probably not interested in the truth</quote> @joe40001 look. this person was nice enough to do your homework for you</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Hudawgy 10/23/19 11:00:36 AM #130:	pinky0926 posted... Hudawgy posted... But they are not women. Thats the reality of it all. It even says it in the title. "Trans" Woman. A real woman doesn't have the title "Trans'. They are simply a woman. If this is about dignity. Then standing up for real woman should be the top priority, no? Framing this argument towards the politics of gender ethics instead of towards physiological sex advantages in sport is how we got into this mess in the first place. For example, why should standing up for "real" women (I take that to mean biological women) take precedent over standing up for trans women? That conversation is entirely political, and not one you can easily answer, and one that will honestly just upset people and divide on the basis of personal values. Does it matter if people get upset? Besidesm Im not even trying to be political but it is politics that got it messy in the 1st place Transwoman are not woman by the exact definition. Which is defined as a "MALE' to female transsexual. Keyword is 'male'. And when it comes to male vs female. Something as simple as comparing WNBA games to NBA games easily sums it up. <cite>Hudawgy posted [p:929134265] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>But they are not women. Thats the reality of it all. It even says it in the title. "Trans" Woman. A real woman doesn't have the title "Trans'. They are simply a woman. If this is about dignity. Then standing up for real woman should be the top priority, no?</quote> Framing this argument towards the politics of gender ethics instead of towards physiological sex advantages in sport is how we got into this mess in the first place. For example, why should standing up for "real" women (I take that to mean biological women) take precedent over standing up for trans women? That conversation is entirely political, and not one you can easily answer, and one that will honestly just upset people and divide on the basis of personal values. </quote> Does it matter if people get upset? Besidesm Im not even trying to be political but it is politics that got it messy in the 1st place Transwoman are not woman by the exact definition. Which is defined as a "MALE' to female transsexual. Keyword is 'male'. And when it comes to male vs female. Something as simple as comparing WNBA games to NBA games easily sums it up.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Guide 10/23/19 11:01:44 AM #131:	Hudawgy posted... pinky0926 posted... Guide posted... As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing. I agree with this. More effective data would be good. And if it was discovered that trans women have no advantage (on good rationale), I would reverse all my opinions completely. This was an interesting read below, but it's still really just the values of a single person and not conclusive to anything. https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/bk10jd/can_anyone_who_does_powerlifting_weigh_in_on_this/emysoto/ One glance at the total NBA roster compared to the WNBA roster pretty much sums it up. The men are better, faster and stronger. Watch any game from both leagues.. But at the end of the day. Whats happening is the result of pandering to Social Justice Activists. This is the rabbit hole. People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one. Aside from the unnecessary political bent, you have no comprehension of how stats work. --- formerly evening formerly guide https://youtu.be/Acn5IptKWQU <cite>Guide posted [p:929134304] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>Guide posted...</cite> <quote>As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing.</quote> I agree with this. More effective data would be good. And if it was discovered that trans women have no advantage (on good rationale), I would reverse all my opinions completely. This was an interesting read below, but it's still really just the values of a single person and not conclusive to anything. https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/bk10jd/can_anyone_who_does_powerlifting_weigh_in_on_this/emysoto/</quote> One glance at the total NBA roster compared to the WNBA roster pretty much sums it up. The men are better, faster and stronger. Watch any game from both leagues.. But at the end of the day. Whats happening is the result of pandering to Social Justice Activists. This is the rabbit hole. People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one.</quote> Aside from the unnecessary political bent, you have no comprehension of how stats work.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Hudawgy 10/23/19 11:04:08 AM #132:	Guide posted... Hudawgy posted... pinky0926 posted... Guide posted... As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing. I agree with this. More effective data would be good. And if it was discovered that trans women have no advantage (on good rationale), I would reverse all my opinions completely. This was an interesting read below, but it's still really just the values of a single person and not conclusive to anything. https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/bk10jd/can_anyone_who_does_powerlifting_weigh_in_on_this/emysoto/ One glance at the total NBA roster compared to the WNBA roster pretty much sums it up. The men are better, faster and stronger. Watch any game from both leagues.. But at the end of the day. Whats happening is the result of pandering to Social Justice Activists. This is the rabbit hole. People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one. Aside from the unnecessary political bent, you have no comprehension of how stats work. ....What stats? Im talking about the actual game. The speed and force that men play at compared to woman. <cite>Hudawgy posted [p:929134389] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Guide posted...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>Guide posted...</cite> <quote>As with all these topics, I'd like to see the collected and parsed statistics of all transgender placements in all female events. The placement stats will speak the truth. Everything else here is bigotry, empty defense, and posturing.</quote> I agree with this. More effective data would be good. And if it was discovered that trans women have no advantage (on good rationale), I would reverse all my opinions completely. This was an interesting read below, but it's still really just the values of a single person and not conclusive to anything. https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/bk10jd/can_anyone_who_does_powerlifting_weigh_in_on_this/emysoto/</quote> One glance at the total NBA roster compared to the WNBA roster pretty much sums it up. The men are better, faster and stronger. Watch any game from both leagues.. But at the end of the day. Whats happening is the result of pandering to Social Justice Activists. This is the rabbit hole. People want to accept this person as a real female? Well, then they should be treated like one. But we all know that person sure as hell isn't one.</quote> Aside from the unnecessary political bent, you have no comprehension of how stats work.</quote> ....What stats? Im talking about the actual game. The speed and force that men play at compared to woman.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 11:13:21 AM #133:	Hudawgy posted... Does it matter if people get upset? Besidesm Im not even trying to be political but it is politics that got it messy in the 1st place Transwoman are not woman by the exact definition. Which is defined as a "MALE' to female transsexual. Keyword is 'male'. And when it comes to male vs female. Something as simple as comparing WNBA games to NBA games easily sums it up. Avoiding upsetting people isn't really my key point. I'm saying arguing on a political or personal values level does not make for a very strong argument if the goal is to figure out an evidence based conclusion. Telling people their personal values are wrong (e.g. "trans women should not be treated as women") is a much murkier and less sure argument than telling them that the science shows a different results set in sports performance between XX and XY people (e.g. "T has a marked effect on performance across the board, and should be weighed as a considerable advantage regardless of how you feel about it"). I think it should be possible to acknowledge that trans women deserve respect and dignity and should be allowed to compete like any other person can compete without being a dick about it, while also acknowledging that they may have a marked performance advantage due to biological advantages over cis women and therefore classification may be necessary. Put it another way. If you said a small skinny guy can't compete in the heavyweight boxing division because of the sheer performance difference, that would be fair enough to most people. But if you said "skinny guys shouldn't fight against big guys because they're not real men", well then that's just a poor argument and generally not a nice thing to say. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929134696] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>Does it matter if people get upset? Besidesm Im not even trying to be political but it is politics that got it messy in the 1st place Transwoman are not woman by the exact definition. Which is defined as a "MALE' to female transsexual. Keyword is 'male'. And when it comes to male vs female. Something as simple as comparing WNBA games to NBA games easily sums it up.</quote> Avoiding upsetting people isn't really my key point. I'm saying arguing on a political or personal values level does not make for a very strong argument if the goal is to figure out an evidence based conclusion. Telling people their personal values are wrong (e.g. "trans women should not be treated as women") is a much murkier and less sure argument than telling them that the science shows a different results set in sports performance between XX and XY people (e.g. "T has a marked effect on performance across the board, and should be weighed as a considerable advantage regardless of how you feel about it"). I think it should be possible to acknowledge that trans women deserve respect and dignity and should be allowed to compete like any other person can compete without being a dick about it, while also acknowledging that they may have a marked performance advantage due to biological advantages over cis women and therefore classification may be necessary. Put it another way. If you said a small skinny guy can't compete in the heavyweight boxing division because of the sheer performance difference, that would be fair enough to most people. But if you said "skinny guys shouldn't fight against big guys because they're not real men", well then that's just a poor argument and generally not a nice thing to say.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 10/23/19 11:17:42 AM #134:	The only real resolution I can see to this problem is abandoning gender segregated Sports entirely and doing something similar to boxing where you use testosterone measures like weight class and people compete in whatever weight class matches the level of T in their system. That's going to cause all sorts of problems in the short-term, and you probably need to eliminate Title Nine to make it work, but it's the only way I can think of to make everybody happy while still being fair. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:929134857] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>The only real resolution I can see to this problem is abandoning gender segregated Sports entirely and doing something similar to boxing where you use testosterone measures like weight class and people compete in whatever weight class matches the level of T in their system. That's going to cause all sorts of problems in the short-term, and you probably need to eliminate Title Nine to make it work, but it's the only way I can think of to make everybody happy while still being fair.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Questionmarktarius 10/23/19 11:20:16 AM #135:	s0nicfan posted... like weight class A promotion & relegation system would work. Or, you know, just simple weight classes. <cite>Questionmarktarius posted [p:929134944] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>like weight class</quote> A promotion & relegation system would work. Or, you know, just simple weight classes.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Hudawgy 10/23/19 11:21:25 AM #136:	pinky0926 posted... Hudawgy posted... Does it matter if people get upset? Besidesm Im not even trying to be political but it is politics that got it messy in the 1st place Transwoman are not woman by the exact definition. Which is defined as a "MALE' to female transsexual. Keyword is 'male'. And when it comes to male vs female. Something as simple as comparing WNBA games to NBA games easily sums it up. Avoiding upsetting people isn't really my key point. I'm saying arguing on a political or personal values level does not make for a very strong argument if the goal is to figure out an evidence based conclusion. Telling people their personal values are wrong (e.g. "trans women should not be treated as women") is a much murkier and less sure argument than telling them that the science shows a different results set in sports performance between XX and XY people (e.g. "T has a marked effect on performance across the board, and should be weighed as a considerable advantage regardless of how you feel about it"). I think it should be possible to acknowledge that trans women deserve respect and dignity and should be allowed to compete like any other person can compete without being a dick about it, while also acknowledging that they may have a marked performance advantage due to biological advantages over cis women and therefore classification may be necessary. Put it another way. If you said a small skinny guy can't compete in the heavyweight boxing division because of the sheer performance difference, that would be fair enough to most people. But if you said "skinny guys shouldn't fight against big guys because they're not real men", well then that's just a poor argument and generally not a nice thing to say. Meh.. Skinny men are men. Thats why they have lightweight divisions right? Men are stronger and faster than woman. Again look at the NBA vs WNBA. These are the top athletes. The men, on average are bigger, faster, stronger. You could take the 5 worst male nba players and stick them in the WNBA and they would dominate. <cite>Hudawgy posted [p:929134982] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>Does it matter if people get upset? Besidesm Im not even trying to be political but it is politics that got it messy in the 1st place Transwoman are not woman by the exact definition. Which is defined as a "MALE' to female transsexual. Keyword is 'male'. And when it comes to male vs female. Something as simple as comparing WNBA games to NBA games easily sums it up.</quote> Avoiding upsetting people isn't really my key point. I'm saying arguing on a political or personal values level does not make for a very strong argument if the goal is to figure out an evidence based conclusion. Telling people their personal values are wrong (e.g. "trans women should not be treated as women") is a much murkier and less sure argument than telling them that the science shows a different results set in sports performance between XX and XY people (e.g. "T has a marked effect on performance across the board, and should be weighed as a considerable advantage regardless of how you feel about it"). I think it should be possible to acknowledge that trans women deserve respect and dignity and should be allowed to compete like any other person can compete without being a dick about it, while also acknowledging that they may have a marked performance advantage due to biological advantages over cis women and therefore classification may be necessary. Put it another way. If you said a small skinny guy can't compete in the heavyweight boxing division because of the sheer performance difference, that would be fair enough to most people. But if you said "skinny guys shouldn't fight against big guys because they're not real men", well then that's just a poor argument and generally not a nice thing to say.</quote> Meh.. Skinny men are men. Thats why they have lightweight divisions right? Men are stronger and faster than woman. Again look at the NBA vs WNBA. These are the top athletes. The men, on average are bigger, faster, stronger. You could take the 5 worst male nba players and stick them in the WNBA and they would dominate.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 10/23/19 11:22:12 AM #137:	Questionmarktarius posted... s0nicfan posted... like weight class A promotion & relegation system would work. Or, you know, just simple weight classes. I think doing it just by weight is still going to run into issues when you start crossing the sexes to make this whole new system work. You're also going to end up with similar problems to boxing, were you have people starving themselves of T right before weigh-in to make it into a division before doping themselves back up, but these are the kind of details that would have to be worked out going forward. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:929135016] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Questionmarktarius posted...</cite> <quote>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>like weight class</quote> A promotion & relegation system would work. Or, you know, just simple weight classes.</quote> I think doing it just by weight is still going to run into issues when you start crossing the sexes to make this whole new system work. You're also going to end up with similar problems to boxing, were you have people starving themselves of T right before weigh-in to make it into a division before doping themselves back up, but these are the kind of details that would have to be worked out going forward.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Hudawgy 10/23/19 11:24:31 AM #138:	s0nicfan posted... The only real resolution I can see to this problem is abandoning gender segregated Sports entirely and doing something similar to boxing where you use testosterone measures like weight class and people compete in whatever weight class matches the level of T in their system. That's going to cause all sorts of problems in the short-term, and you probably need to eliminate Title Nine to make it work, but it's the only way I can think of to make everybody happy while still being fair. This would basically ruin all woman athletes. Hell, they would be extinct. <cite>Hudawgy posted [p:929135095] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>The only real resolution I can see to this problem is abandoning gender segregated Sports entirely and doing something similar to boxing where you use testosterone measures like weight class and people compete in whatever weight class matches the level of T in their system. That's going to cause all sorts of problems in the short-term, and you probably need to eliminate Title Nine to make it work, but it's the only way I can think of to make everybody happy while still being fair.</quote> This would basically ruin all woman athletes. Hell, they would be extinct.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 11:25:04 AM #139:	Hudawgy posted... Meh.. Skinny men are men. Thats why they have lightweight divisions right? Men are stronger and faster than woman. Again look at the NBA vs WNBA. These are the top athletes. The men, on average are bigger, faster, stronger. You could take the 5 worst male nba players and stick them in the WNBA and they would dominate. Right, and I agree, I just took a bit of issue with the "trans women are not women" argument, which is a messy one and tangled up in politically charged language. "men outperform women in sports because of T" is not messy though. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929135121] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote> Meh.. Skinny men are men. Thats why they have lightweight divisions right? Men are stronger and faster than woman. Again look at the NBA vs WNBA. These are the top athletes. The men, on average are bigger, faster, stronger. You could take the 5 worst male nba players and stick them in the WNBA and they would dominate.</quote> Right, and I agree, I just took a bit of issue with the "trans women are not women" argument, which is a messy one and tangled up in politically charged language. "men outperform women in sports because of T" is not messy though.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
onedarksoul 10/23/19 11:26:20 AM #140:	This will keep happening until folks face reality. <cite>onedarksoul posted [p:929135173] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>This will keep happening until folks face reality. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
s0nicfan 10/23/19 11:30:21 AM #141:	Hudawgy posted... s0nicfan posted... The only real resolution I can see to this problem is abandoning gender segregated Sports entirely and doing something similar to boxing where you use testosterone measures like weight class and people compete in whatever weight class matches the level of T in their system. That's going to cause all sorts of problems in the short-term, and you probably need to eliminate Title Nine to make it work, but it's the only way I can think of to make everybody happy while still being fair. This would basically ruin all woman athletes. Hell, they would be extinct. How so? They'd just be in the "super lightweight" low T division. --- "History Is Much Like An Endless Waltz. The Three Beats Of War, Peace And Revolution Continue On Forever." - Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz <cite>s0nicfan posted [p:929135317] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>The only real resolution I can see to this problem is abandoning gender segregated Sports entirely and doing something similar to boxing where you use testosterone measures like weight class and people compete in whatever weight class matches the level of T in their system. That's going to cause all sorts of problems in the short-term, and you probably need to eliminate Title Nine to make it work, but it's the only way I can think of to make everybody happy while still being fair.</quote> This would basically ruin all woman athletes. Hell, they would be extinct.</quote> How so? They'd just be in the "super lightweight" low T division.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Questionmarktarius 10/23/19 11:33:44 AM #142:	Hudawgy posted... This would basically ruin all woman athletes. Hell, they would be extinct. Welterweight boxing and farm-league baseball still exists. <cite>Questionmarktarius posted [p:929135439] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>This would basically ruin all woman athletes. Hell, they would be extinct.</quote> Welterweight boxing and farm-league baseball still exists.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Hudawgy 10/23/19 11:40:53 AM #143:	s0nicfan posted... Hudawgy posted... s0nicfan posted... The only real resolution I can see to this problem is abandoning gender segregated Sports entirely and doing something similar to boxing where you use testosterone measures like weight class and people compete in whatever weight class matches the level of T in their system. That's going to cause all sorts of problems in the short-term, and you probably need to eliminate Title Nine to make it work, but it's the only way I can think of to make everybody happy while still being fair. This would basically ruin all woman athletes. Hell, they would be extinct. How so? They'd just be in the "super lightweight" low T division. Its not just about T, its also about bone structure. Woman are weaker and slower then men. They are built differently. For example. Ever see a skeleton of a woman compared to a man. <cite>Hudawgy posted [p:929135699] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>Hudawgy posted...</cite> <quote>s0nicfan posted...</cite> <quote>The only real resolution I can see to this problem is abandoning gender segregated Sports entirely and doing something similar to boxing where you use testosterone measures like weight class and people compete in whatever weight class matches the level of T in their system. That's going to cause all sorts of problems in the short-term, and you probably need to eliminate Title Nine to make it work, but it's the only way I can think of to make everybody happy while still being fair.</quote> This would basically ruin all woman athletes. Hell, they would be extinct.</quote> How so? They'd just be in the "super lightweight" low T division.</quote> Its not just about T, its also about bone structure. Woman are weaker and slower then men. They are built differently. For example. Ever see a skeleton of a woman compared to a man.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
gunplagirl 10/23/19 11:49:27 AM #144:	can't see most of the last 20 posts lemme guess, lots of "they aren't real women" bullshit? --- https://i.imgtc.ws/x2KBsjI.png <cite>gunplagirl posted [p:929136026] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>can't see most of the last 20 posts lemme guess, lots of "they aren't real women" bullshit?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
OnWingsOfMisery 10/23/19 11:51:52 AM #145:	Women need to stand up and fight back against this stuff. It's their battle to have. Their achievements and spaces are being dominated now and the aura of fear and misery is forcing them to just accept it. <cite>OnWingsOfMisery posted [p:929136121] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Women need to stand up and fight back against this stuff. It's their battle to have. Their achievements and spaces are being dominated now and the aura of fear and misery is forcing them to just accept it.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/23/19 11:53:38 AM #146:	OnWingsOfMisery posted... To the surprise of absolutely no one --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair! https://imgtc.com/i/bHqCLJF.png https://i.imgtc.com/YnvkpvU.png <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:929136197] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>OnWingsOfMisery posted...</cite> <quote>To the surprise of absolutely no one</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pinky0926 10/23/19 11:54:25 AM #147:	OnWingsOfMisery posted... Women need to stand up and fight back against this stuff. It's their battle to have. Their achievements and spaces are being dominated now and the aura of fear and misery is forcing them to just accept it. I'd pull back a little bit tbh. There are a few instances of trans athletes performing better than expected like in this story, but I dunno about the apocalyptic scenario you're suggesting. There is not currently a pandemic of trans athletes overwhelming women's sports. The conversations at this stage are mostly hypothetical, i.e. about what should be allowed to continue. --- CE's Resident Scotsman. https://imgur.com/ILz2ZbV <cite>pinky0926 posted [p:929136224] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>OnWingsOfMisery posted...</cite> <quote>Women need to stand up and fight back against this stuff. It's their battle to have. Their achievements and spaces are being dominated now and the aura of fear and misery is forcing them to just accept it.</quote> I'd pull back a little bit tbh. There are a few instances of trans athletes performing better than expected like in this story, but I dunno about the apocalyptic scenario you're suggesting. There is not currently a pandemic of trans athletes overwhelming women's sports. The conversations at this stage are mostly hypothetical, i.e. about what should be allowed to continue.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
#148	Post #148 was unavailable or deleted.
Twin3Turbo 10/23/19 11:58:13 AM #149:	pinky0926 posted... I'd pull back a little bit tbh. There are a few instances of trans athletes performing better than expected like in this story, but I dunno about the apocalyptic scenario you're suggesting. There is not currently a endemic of trans athletes overwhelming women's sports. The conversations at this stage are mostly hypothetical, i.e. about what should be allowed to continue. I get that we still need more data but just at a glance, given how low the trans population is, I think it says quite a bit when we have story after story of MtF's absolutely dominating female competition. By the same token, given how low the population is, I doubt there is going to be an epidemic but still. --- https://imgur.com/PHWbltB <cite>Twin3Turbo posted [p:929136390] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>pinky0926 posted... </cite> <quote>I'd pull back a little bit tbh. There are a few instances of trans athletes performing better than expected like in this story, but I dunno about the apocalyptic scenario you're suggesting. There is not currently a endemic of trans athletes overwhelming women's sports. The conversations at this stage are mostly hypothetical, i.e. about what should be allowed to continue.</quote>I get that we still need more data but just at a glance, given how low the trans population is, I think it says quite a bit when we have story after story of MtF's absolutely dominating female competition. By the same token, given how low the population is, I doubt there is going to be an epidemic but still. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
averagejoel 10/23/19 12:02:18 PM #150:	Twin3Turbo posted... I think it says quite a bit when we have story after story of MtF's absolutely dominating female competition. I think it would say quite a bit if we did have story after story of "MTF's" [sic] absolutely dominating female competition. however, we do not. --- peanut butter and dick <cite>averagejoel posted [p:929136532] in Transgende... [t:78101732]...</cite> <quote>Twin3Turbo posted...</cite> <quote>I think it says quite a bit when we have story after story of MtF's absolutely dominating female competition.</quote> I think it would say quite a bit if we did have story after story of "MTF's" [sic] absolutely dominating female competition. however, we do not.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > Transgender Cyclist Wins Female Cycling World Championship (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > Transgender Cyclist Wins Female Cycling World Championship