Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 232: Jay Inslee Is Too Pure For This World

(+) Yeah! (+)

Corrik7 posted...

Espeon posted...

Holy shit this is hilarious. Corrik literally telling a Swiss national that he doesnt understand his own country, rather than admit hes making a stupid argument.

Yeah, that never happened.

The REAL problem is the divide in our country, not GUNS. Thats why we have the same percentage of gun owners as Switzerland and THEYRE fine.

Actually, Im from Switzerland and our guns are inactive with bullets, which we heavily regulate. So its definitely not the same.

BUT YOU STILL POSSESS THE SAME PERCENTAGE OF GUNS THOUGH!
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Espeon posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Espeon posted...

Holy shit this is hilarious. Corrik literally telling a Swiss national that he doesnt understand his own country, rather than admit hes making a stupid argument.

Yeah, that never happened.

The REAL problem is the divide in our country, not GUNS. Thats why we have the same percentage of gun owners as Switzerland and THEYRE fine.

Actually, Im from Switzerland and our guns are inactive with bullets, which we heavily regulate. So its definitely not the same.

BUT YOU STILL POSSESS THE SAME PERCENTAGE OF GUNS THOUGH!

Yeah, read the posts again. I agreed with him. Lol. It isn't the number of the guns that is the issue. Countries have lots of guns and don't have our issues. We can keep our gun numbers absolutely 100% the same and not have these issues with gun violence.

The propensity to mass shooting is on divide. Not gun numbers either.
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You have no propensity to mass shoot if you don't have guns and ammunition.

There is no country with lots of guns comparable to us. You keep stating the same absolute lie.

There is -no country- with our level of guns. It is incomparable. We are the one and only outlier.
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I see Corrik ignored that article and continued to be a moron, thinking that the US and Swiss is a 1-to-1 comparison.
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TheRock1525 posted...

I see Corrik ignored that article and continued to be a moron, thinking that the US and Swiss is a 1-to-1 comparison.

I literally read that article and the one on the swedish laws before I gave my idea for gun regulation in the other topic. I know full well what their laws are. He is arguing more guns correlates to more mass shootings. Period. That is not a correct correlation.
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There are countries with lots of guns relative to other countries that are not the United States. But the amount of gun any single country has absolutely pales in comparison to the United States.

We are the outlier. There is no "lots of guns" if you are comparing to the United States.

If you consider us the bar for "lots of guns", then lower that bar by 50%.

You want to know what country is above the bar for "lots of guns".

Its just the United States. Just us.

We are that far beyond.
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Corrik7 posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

I see Corrik ignored that article and continued to be a moron, thinking that the US and Swiss is a 1-to-1 comparison.

I literally read that article and the one on the swedish laws before I gave my idea for gun regulation in the other topic. I know full well what their laws are. He is arguing more guns correlates to more mass shootings. Period. That is not a correct correlation.

Would it be better to say guns that can actually be fired? Since you seem content to die on this asinine hill of yours.
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The data in the article lotm linked conclusively shows a correlation between number of guns and number of gun related deaths (which--yes--is not the same as number of mass shootings)
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red13n posted...

A national registry has in fact been deemed illegal because we are fucking insane when it comes to guns.

FREEDUMB WOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Espeon posted...

Holy shit this is hilarious. Corrik literally telling a Swiss national that he doesnt understand his own country, rather than admit hes making a stupid argument.

TheRock1525 posted...

I see Corrik ignored that article

I mean is anyone surprised

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Espeon posted...

Corrik7 posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

I see Corrik ignored that article and continued to be a moron, thinking that the US and Swiss is a 1-to-1 comparison.

I literally read that article and the one on the swedish laws before I gave my idea for gun regulation in the other topic. I know full well what their laws are. He is arguing more guns correlates to more mass shootings. Period. That is not a correct correlation.

Would it be better to say guns that can actually be fired? Since you seem content to die on this asinine hill of yours.

There still is not a correlation. We can pick any number of countries. They almost all have relatively little if any mass shootings despite gun numbers (and population that own guns).

No correlation there exists. Which is why I said it is not gun numbers or populace that own guns that is the issue. We see this clear not correlated in the numbers. So what is the correlation?

Our numbers are something I would think is more along the lines of terrorism that exists in other countries with divided governments or divided populaces. Afghanistan, Iraq, Turkey, etc. Tbqh
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We DO see a clear correlation in the numbers. America has massive numbers of guns, and a subsequently massive amount of gun violence.

Meanwhile, where is your data proving a correlation between mass shootings and divisiveness?
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Corrik, you are making an assumption that there is anywhere like the United States when it comes to guns.

We are the outlier. Every single country is incomparable to the United States situation when it comes to guns. There is no other data to view but our own.
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Corrik7 posted...

No correlation there exists. Which is why I said it is not gun numbers or populace that own guns that is the issue. We see this clear not correlated in the numbers. So what is the correlation?

the correlation does exist.

We are the outlier.

Of developed, prosperous, stable government countries, we are the ones with the extraodinary amount of guns and the one with the extraordinary amount of mass shootings.

The amount of guns are the only thing that make us unique.

It is the correlation. It is undeniable.
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red13n posted...

Corrik, you are making an assumption that there is anywhere like the United States when it comes to guns.

We are the outlier. Every single country is incomparable to the United States situation when it comes to guns. There is no other data to view but our own.

Okay. We have to adjust for populations of course and ownership.

But,

If United States has what 50 mass shootings. We should expect every country. With him ownership around our rate to do a proportionate amount relatively so to speak.

I am just gonna assume all the same numbers in population and ownership here cuz it gets way too mathy then.

But

Then Yemen has 28
Country c 25
Country d 22

Etc all the way down.

But, we don't see that. Not even close to that. Instead what we see is like.

50
1
1
1
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0

We see no correlation. We see simply a huge outlier and no correlation anywhere down the list. Instead we see basically the rare occurrence it happens. (Maybe if we added all mass killings in bombings, trucks, etc it wouldn't be so bad - though I don't know if we see a correlation with mass vehicle killings and more vehicles and more bombs with more mass bomb deaths and so on - tho we nmght with bombs - which of course are massively illegal so hard to compare).

So, we can throw out that it is just gun numbers. The number of guns itself is not the issue. The problem then becomes what is the cause then? You are going to point to gun laws. Switzerland is a great example. And, I agree. My idea was sort of looking at gun laws from other nations in my idea. I didn't go the exact Switzerland route because I feel it is harder to regulate here, but I used it as an idea on having to store guns in precincts and be signed out for usage. Having no one besides those who should have guns carrying them out openly without permit and not having unfettered access to guns, which allows usage in heat of the moment issues.

I think why we have so many mass shootings is because, yes, as you say they can inflict damage quickly, they aren't very taboo to carry around due to bad laws (I can walk down a street with an ak47 right now no issue), and because our nation is so divided that we have mass attacks that we only see in these numbers in basically countries in conflict domestically. They just use bombs more often.
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red13n posted...

Corrik7 posted...

No correlation there exists. Which is why I said it is not gun numbers or populace that own guns that is the issue. We see this clear not correlated in the numbers. So what is the correlation?

the correlation does exist.

We are the outlier.

Of developed, prosperous, stable government countries, we are the ones with the extraodinary amount of guns and the one with the extraordinary amount of mass shootings.

The amount of guns are the only thing that make us unique.

It is the correlation. It is undeniable.

Then why doesn't the nation's with the great numbers have great numbers of shootings. The ones with average numbers have average numbers of shootings and so on. That isn't how correlation works.

It isn't everyone is flat and we are an outlier in both and no one else correlates.
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Corrik, while technically correct, you're basically saying the evidence is too strong.

Do you think our political culture is so much more toxic than every other country that it explains us being such a big outlier?

As far as what we should do about it - that's another question.
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Corrik7 posted...

Then why doesn't the nation's with the great numbers have great numbers of shootings. The ones with average numbers have average numbers of shootings and so on. That isn't how correlation works.

It isn't everyone is flat and we are an outlier in both and no one else correlates.

because every country is incomparable to us.

There is us and then there is everyone else. You can compare the others. But they are incomparable to us. We are such an outlier that every country 2 to last may as well be the same. There is no comparison to make except us vs literally everyone else. We are unique in a horrible way.

You keep trying to make comparisons where comparisons cant be made.
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Yeah. The UK literally had a vote where half the country voted to force the other half (and themselves) out of the EU, yet they have nowhere NEAR the same level of violence that we do. Because he had an inordinate number of guns.
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The guns are literally the only thing different from us and basically every other developed nation when it comes to mass shootings.

This is literal correlation. It is again, undeniable.
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red13n posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Then why doesn't the nation's with the great numbers have great numbers of shootings. The ones with average numbers have average numbers of shootings and so on. That isn't how correlation works.

It isn't everyone is flat and we are an outlier in both and no one else correlates.

because every country is incomparable to us.

There is us and then there is everyone else. You can compare the others. But they are incomparable to us. We are such an outlier that every country 2 to last may as well be the same. There is no comparison to make except us vs literally everyone else. We are unique in a horrible way.

You keep trying to make comparisons where comparisons cant be made.

This isn't true. We greatly outnumber many, but it isn't they are all flat and we are way above and beyond. The correlation simply doesn't exist and it is why you keep saying outliers because nothing exists to support that.

That's why I made a point to use Switzerland who has similar numbers of gun ownership in the population. It isn't the amount of guns. It is what I described above.
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red sox 777 posted...

Corrik, while technically correct, you're basically saying the evidence is too strong.

Do you think our political culture is so much more toxic than every other country that it explains us being such a big outlier?

As far as what we should do about it - that's another question.

I can't profess to know every countries situation, but I think we have one that is increasingly getting worse. I'd imagine our numbers have been getting higher over the years since Virginia Tech.
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Corrik7 posted...

true. We greatly outnumber many, but it isn't they are all flat and we are way above and beyond. The correlation simply doesn't exist and it is why you keep saying outliers because nothing exists to support that.

We are literally above and beyond. Stop saying we arent. We are miles beyond anyone else when it comes to the amount of guns.
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https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

Numbers somewhat.

You could argue 2015 is where the spike really begins. Which of course is where the beginning of the presidential election gets into swing.

But what you can see is the void of mass shootings that happen after 9/11 when we were unified as a country.
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Corrik7 posted...

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

Numbers somewhat.

You could argue 2015 is where the spike really begins. Which of course is where the beginning of the presidential election gets into swing.

No one is saying the rhetoric doesn't help cause mass shootings.

What we are saying is that even with the rhetoric, if the guns are not available, the mass shootings don't happen. Other countries have the rhetoric, they don't have the mass shootings.

The guns are the difference.
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why is political divide the cause of the mass shootings in the US if most of those shootings aren't politically motivated
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

why is political divide the cause of the mass shootings in the US if most of those shootings aren't politically motivated

I think it divides the public and creates hostility in general. People are always complaining. Judging people. Etc.
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Again, political divide is always going to exist. It exists everywhere. It is hardly unique to the United States. In fact we arguably have a much more civil government than many developed countries, even in our current state.

Leafeon13N posted...

Again, political divide is always going to exist. It exists everywhere. It is hardly unique to the United States. In fact we arguably have a much more civil government than many developed countries, even in our current state.

I think the 2 party system hurts us because it makes our divides much larger and makes the population so polarized.

Like, if you look above to my edit. There was nothing for almost 2 years after 9/11.
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Corrik, you are trying to find a key reason that in addition to the guns has resulted in our propensity for mass shootings.

But regardless of whatever reason you imagine that might be... they could still be prevented by removing/restricting the guns.

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Corrik7 posted...

I think it divides the public and creates hostility in general. People are always complaining. Judging people. Etc.

ok, so your argument is "political divide creates a general culture of hostility, which causes the mass shootings."

i think that's pretty weak. first of all, this is an incredibly complex topic. if you're trying to narrow it down to just one "cause," you're starting off on the wrong foot already. second of all, there's quite a big difference between "i'm hostile and aggressive" and "i'm going on a fucking killing spree." third of all, like red just said, political divide exists everywhere. while you're right about most western countries not having just two major paties fighting each other, here in the netherlands there's definitely always a left vs. right fight going on - they just don't crystalize into just two political parties. (hell, i'd argue this doesn't happen in the US anymore either. just look at the divide that exists between moderate democrats and the squad or [to a lesser extent] traditional conservatives and the alt-right.) but the rhetoric here is often just as toxic as in US politics. yet we don't have lunatics shooting up places every other week.

i actually think sephy's argument from the other topic was a lot more compelling: that in the US, there seems to be a culture that idolizes gun-toting action heroes. movies with those characters are pretty popular here too, but maybe not as popular? plus they're not actually made here (maybe with a few exceptions), while they ARE made in large numbers in the US. the same goes for video games with those kind of characters.

i think another explanation is the way the mainstream media handles the shootings - they're giving potential shooters a perverse incentive to become "famous." again, to some extent this happens over here too, but our mainstream media aren't as sensationalist as fox news or whatever.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Corrik, you are trying to find a key reason that in addition to the guns has resulted in our propensity for mass shootings.

But regardless of whatever reason you imagine that might be... they could still be prevented by removing/restricting the guns.

I wanted to expand upon this after giving it some more thought with an analogy I've come up with.

.

Imagine there is a doctor in an office.

And in walks a patient. And the patient is bleeding profusely from a cut.

And the doctor does not immediately put a band-aid on the cut.

Instead the doctor starts to theorize some of the reasons why the patient might be bleeding so much. Maybe the patient does not have enough platelets in his/her blood so the blood isn't clotting as well. Maybe the patient regularly takes blood thinners and will regularly have trouble in this area. Maybe the patient has some complex issue affecting how his/her spleen functions and this is a side effect of that. Maybe the patient has a history of bone marrow disorders in their family which can also affect blood clotting. Maybe a hundred other potential reasons or causes...

The doctor ponders and ponders and ponders... Meanwhile, the patient is bleeding out.

.

Yes, it's good to consider what the root cause of something might be, but when you have a band-aid solution to a significant problem, for fucks sake put the band-aid on first and diagnose the situation after.

Especially if there is a chance that the cut itself was the only root cause. Maybe the patient was slicing a watermelon and the knife slipped. And maybe the overwhelming access to guns really is the main contributing factor to gun violence. But whether it is or isn't, we have a band-aid solution that will guarantee positive results, and you can poke around for root causes once the bleeding stops.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Corrik, you are trying to find a key reason that in addition to the guns has resulted in our propensity for mass shootings.

But regardless of whatever reason you imagine that might be... they could still be prevented by removing/restricting the guns.

Well, yes, absolutely. I am just saying other countries do have guns and a lot of them, but not these issues either.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Corrik, you are trying to find a key reason that in addition to the guns has resulted in our propensity for mass shootings.

But regardless of whatever reason you imagine that might be... they could still be prevented by removing/restricting the guns.

I wanted to expand upon this after giving it some more thought with an analogy I've come up with.

.

Imagine there is a doctor in an office.

And in walks a patient. And the patient is bleeding profusely from a cut.

And the doctor does not immediately put a band-aid on the cut.

Instead the doctor starts to theorize some of the reasons why the patient might be bleeding so much. Maybe the patient does not have enough platelets in his/her blood so the blood isn't clotting as well. Maybe the patient regularly takes blood thinners and will regularly have trouble in this area. Maybe the patient has some complex issue affecting how his/her spleen functions and this is a side effect of that. Maybe the patient has a history of bone marrow disorders in their family which can also affect blood clotting. Maybe a hundred other potential reasons or causes...

The doctor ponders and ponders and ponders... Meanwhile, the patient is bleeding out.

.

Yes, it's good to consider what the root cause of something might be, but when you have a band-aid solution to a significant problem, for fucks sake put the band-aid on first and diagnose the situation after.

Especially if there is a chance that the cut itself was the only root cause. Maybe the patient was slicing a watermelon and the knife slipped. And maybe the overwhelming access to guns really is the main contributing factor to gun violence. But whether it is or isn't, we have a band-aid solution that will guarantee positive results, and you can poke around for root causes once the bleeding stops.

What is the band-aid solution to you? I offered one. No one really liked it. What is yours? I am all for limiting guns. I don't think they should be allowed to be publicly carrier unless an officer, military, security etc. And so on. I am for gun reform.
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Come on everybody, we all know guns don't cause gun violence. People cause gun violence. If we just get rid of all the people in the US then we can end the problem without having to limit access to guns. Since the Constitution protects the right to own guns, it's really the only reasonable solution.
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Lasa, are you in a roundabout way blaming movies and video games?
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Corrik7 posted...

Lasa, are you in a roundabout way blaming movies and video games?

i think they may contribute to the mass shootings but i'm not "blaming" them like jack thompson, no. again, i don't think there's one singular cause for the mass shootings. and i don't have a great answer for why they're so common in the US either.
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Personally I'd prefer no civilian ownership of guns at all. But I know that's not realistic so...

For the public? Pistols only. Small magazines only. Every single gun registered. Strict limits on who is allowed to sell guns. Strict limits on requirements to be allowed to purchase guns as well as a requirement to established a need to own multiple guns. Waiting periods between ordering/buying a gun and taking it home. Special exceptions could be made for hunting rifles with extra requirements for licensing, but also hunting rifles should not be possible to load with more than 1 or 2 bullets at a time.

There is no reason to have a gun capable of firing more than a handful of shots before needing to be reloaded. Similarly there is no reason to own a ridiculous number of guns. If you are a "collector" and they are for the "collection" then have the firing pins removed/etc and only own one gun capable of firing.

Throw a ton of restrictions at the wall and see what sticks.

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The same people who are for the massive proliferation of guns in this country are also against any attempt to address a single one of the issues people theorize contribute to our violent culture. So when they tell you that you cannot just take away the guns, and you cannot actually solve any of the problems with our competitive, uncaring, misogynistic, racist, alienating, scared and lonely society, they aren't seriously concerned with fixing the issue. The facists right rejects the idea that our problems are with our society itself, and choose to push the blame on the other. Just like they think the solution on immigration is dehumanize, to lock everyone up, and brutalize them, the solution to Islamic terror is to dehumanize, to lock everyone up, and brutalize them. The solution to poverty is to dehumanize, to lock everyone up, and brutalize them. The solution to gun deaths is to dehumanize the mentally ill, to lock them up, and brutalize them. They never have any other solution to any problem. They think crimes are something you defeat, not something you can prevent. They think guns make them more safe because they feel safer having one, not because they actually think it makes society more safe. They don't care about society. You will never make corrik give a shit about anyone elses life.

It's time people. We should just put everyone in prison. Then there'll be no more mass shootings.
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Imprison and confiscate the guns of anyone posting hate speech online.

In the words of Hillary and Donald, the American people have become a nation of super predators. We can figure out in the future how we got this way, but first we have to bring us to heel. By locking us all up until we can figure out what is going on.
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For fucks sake, Corrik is for more restrictive gun control than half the left is, why are people busting his chops on this of all issues?
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Because he wants to argue semantics about root causes?

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One of the reasons we dont have gun control is people floating the yes guns but argument.

I mean sure. That whole discussion would've went a lot better if it wasn't half arguing about the amount of violent attacks and half about the form/damage of the attacks.

But as Corrik said he's pro gun control, so why on earth are people saying Corrik doesn't want to do anything about the matter?
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People always want to talk about culture, but what about gun culture? People idolize guns in a way that's not really natural in the United States. They're like a sacred cow.
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red sox 777 posted...

It's time people. We should just put everyone in prison. Then there'll be no more mass shootings.

You joke, but this is the thought process of fascists. You can only get rid of the other while ignoring your problems for so long before you have nothing left to confront but yourself.