Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Final Part

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://snag.gy/7hvL3F.jpg

and so i continued down the correct path...

topic 5:
"Surely the magical world stuff climaxed in episode 4? You can't get any grander than that... "

*laughs in pirate ship goat library candy battle*

And there it is.

Topic 5, page 2.

My pride and joy. =P

A post so long it uses the entire message length and I have to quote it in a separate post:

For what it's worth, I've been thinking about it, and I kind of want to move Shannon up in my mastermind likelihood rankings. Or at least, I want to increase the strength of my suspicion there.

When I think about all the themes of the game and her arcs, she's the best fit, narratively.

She represents the theme of social divide and cycle of abuse really well - Social divide because, of course, she is a servant, and is therefore treated as "lesser than", even though she deserves more. Just like how all the adults got treated badly by Kinzo and all their kids get treated badly by them as a result.

And she also represents the theme of "choosing" a better world for yourself, even if it's just in your imagination and/or your perspective - We have a chapter, chapter 2, where she specifically showed how she is willing to create an imaginary narrative (her whole thing with Beatrice) to make herself feel better about her crush. And also, she continually explains to Kanon her "growth" and how she is able to see the world with color now because of her PoV change. Which is a perfect representation of the themes Ange and Maria taught us so much about in episode 4.

So she's a great intersection of both of these core themes, and beyond that, she shows really strong convictions about it, because she explains them in depth to Kanon, and also she confronts Beatrice about them in episode 2. She proves that she's someone willing to stand up for herself, and even do whatever it takes to hold on to the "better" world she's made for herself.

Remember we also have the theme of "things in life are only worth it if you struggle for them" and/or "things in life have meaning even if they don't last forever", like the rose that blooms only for a while and then dies to the rain. She represents both of these themes in episode 2 as well, when she tells Beatrice that she's happy to have had what she had with George, even if it ends. I think a psycopathic killer (if she were one) would be able to justify killing the people she loves if she believes it's for a greater purpose and/or if she believes that the time they had together still counts even if she kills them. This could be the killer's PoV even if it's not her.

And she also shows in episode 2 that she is willing to do whatever is needed to achieve her goals. She travels to an island and smashes a mirror to release an evil witch so that she can get the boy she likes. No, that's not real, Beatrice doesn't exist, but, I think the false stories we're told still highlight aspects of the characters that do matter. And also, (and this isn't my main point, since I'm really just looking at this thematically atm), even if she didn't really smash a mirror because that's fake, she did go to a small island for some reason... and do something there... maybe...?

And again, like I said, Shannon's conflict with Beatrice in episode 2 is sort of the closest any of the human characters have come to having... really the most complex relationship with Beatrice. Kanon sees Beatrice as an evil foe. Natsuhi sees her as a friendly ally. Etc etc. Shannon goes from having her as a friend to having her as a foe who she has long complex debates with about the meaning of life. And I just got the sense that there was something notable about that.

So, when you put all that together, I think she's the perfect person to have a motive that represents all the core themes of the game - If she's the mastermind, then she is perpetuating the cycle of abuse that was forced onto her her whole life, and she's doing so to create a better world for herself because she can decide her world for herself, regardless of reality, and that may mean ignoring the bad things she does, or it may mean valuing those lives but still being able to move past it.

I'm aware I could be totally wrong here and look really silly, but if I'm right I hope I seem really smart.

Now I'm a bit scared to look at the theatregoing topic because the trend I've noticed is that you guys really hated that I wasn't trying to solve the mechanics of the mysteries

But, as Will said, there is more than one way to solve a mystery.

Rather than working from the howdunnit to find the whodunnit, I basically used the whydunnit and then fit the most likely "why" to a character.

Now, that method is never going to let me be confident about my choice. It'll let me find a top suspect, but it won't let me confirm it.

And I'm sure many people who actually took notes and reread chapters could solve things sooner and better than I did (I'm seeing Popcorn's notes in the theatregoing topic showing how they did just that)

But I focused on the thematic analysis more than anything else, and it gave me the correct answer. And I feel pretty damn good about it. Even if maybe it was an easy answer to come to.

topci 5:
"the characters are all strangely even more cheerful than usual after the first set of murders, as they all playfully banter about climbing a ladder to get to kinzo's room"

ohhhhh, i get it. since ep 5 was all just a prank, that's why i said this? yeah, i get it now.

Alright, I'm gonna stop backreading there, since topics 6-8 were super recent. Still, it was fun to read back through my own thoughts.

I'll read the manga stuff next, since I literally still don't know how episodes 3 or 4 worked or what her motive was or how her dual-identity works lol

Ep 5 wasn't entirely just a prank. Krauss wouldn't have been killed if it was. However, everybody involved except Yasu believed it to be one, so thinking of it as one mostly fits. Yasu's motive shifted to revenge on Natsuhi.

geesh, no reaction from the theatregoing topic for correctly pinning the mastermind

what's a fella have to do to get some applause around here

omg, the manga gives actual answers?!

even explaining how yasu did the trick with making the servant's key appear inside her locker!

amazing!!!!!

and if i keep scrolling, it'll give me actual answers to everything like that?! ahhhh!!! fantastic!

my god this manga gets really detailed with shannon's, uh, anatomical issues huh

Dels posted...

my god this manga gets really detailed with shannon's, uh, anatomical issues huh

iirc Ryukishi said something along the lines of "it was a really adult issue, so I had to tread lightly with it" in some interview not long after the release of ep 8.

But yeah

that's uh

what "incapable of love" means

Yes, I see it now.

And I guess that answers the breasts question >_>

So the gender is definitely female, but with development of those areas very much stunted

And uh

I guess when she's "Shannon", she, uh... has... fake boobs...? lol.

And the reason she can appear as Beatrice sometimes is, what, just, a wig, hair dye...?

And of course, Genji and Kumasawa and Nanjo will do anything she says, so that's how she could have two lives.

And, uh

Jessica was...

really

really desperate

for a boyfriend >_>

and so didn't realize that it was literally shannon dressed as a boy

i mean, yeah, i guess so!

hm, going through will's thing in the manga now

game 1, first twilight

"eva and hideyoshi were bribed by the culprit"

...what does that mean?!

were they the ones who said they could see shannon's dead body?

ok, so for the 2nd twilight, the only ones who ever found the door with the chain were servants? and, well, cliche as it was, the servants were all in on it... so... yeah, sure.

right, so for kanon's death, only kumsawa saw him head down, then nanjo was down there and moved the body and confirmed the death.

and "someone seen running away", well, idk, maybe that was yasu herself i guess? or not? doesn't matter too much

Dels posted...

...what does that mean?!

Does the word "bribe" not exist in your vocabulary <_<

and for the 3 parlor deaths, yeah, whatever, shannon was still alive so she could just go in and do it, and maria will say whatever she wants because maria's an accomplice as well

Reg posted...

Dels posted...

...what does that mean?!

Does the word "bribe" not exist in your vocabulary <_<

it means how did they get involved and how did they carry it out. i don't remember the scene. i presume they were the only ones "close enough" to see shannon? and what, shannon approached them and bribed them... and they didn't start to think anything weird was going on? they'd do anything for money and she told them "hey, imma murder your entire family, just pretend i'm dead too"? and then they were all :shockedpikachu: when she came and killed them next, presumably? lol

i'm essentially just trying to remember what eva and hideyoshi's reactions were and how they handled the aftermath of it

i guess, in retrospect, they were pretty darn calm afterwards, and really happy when they were alone in the bedroom...?

and hey, i do remember saying that hideyoshi's reaction to the first deaths felt the most "fake" (one of the reasons i suspected he could be a killer)

Dels posted...

i don't remember the scene. i presume they were the only ones "close enough" to see shannon?

Yes (And that's why Will commented it was a dangerous game - George was not in on it, so him trying to force his way in to see the body of the person he loved would've blown the whole thing)

Dels posted...

and they didn't start to think anything weird was going on? they'd do anything for money and she told them "hey, imma murder your entire family, just pretend i'm dead too"?

They were told it was fake (Similar to how we've gone over Eps 5/6 being a prank on Erika).

Dels posted...

and then they were all :shockedpikachu: when she came and killed them next, presumably? lol

Yes.

hm. they were told it was fake... for what reason? 0_o "i'm gonna pretend to kill all your siblings, just go along with it"

i mean, i guess if she offered them tons of money, (because they NEEDED A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT AWAY), they'd go for anything...

Nominally, it was a prank/mystery for Battler, who explicitly loved mystery novels (And had bonded with Yasu/Shannon over them before leaving the family) and was returning after six years.

Rokkenjima itself is literally the story of "It's just a prank, bro"

Except the prank itself was just a prank.

whoa, genji killed kumasawa and nanjo?!

was that... with their consent? >_> since they were all in on it?

or did shannon give genji a specific instruction?

what i want to know is why she committed suicide... she wanted to punish battler with discovering even that crime scene, and didn't even care enough to stick around to see his reaction, i guess...?

Dels posted...

hm, going through will's thing in the manga now

What chapter? I want to reread it too now.
---

37 and 38

so wait, my posts during episode 2 suggested that gohda came into the living room and said (in front of battler) "We saw Kanon! It was Kanon, but not Kanon, it attacked us, etc"

Was that correct...? Or no...? Was Gohda bribed...?

Oh hey, you want my notes still? (I sleep during the day, so I just woke up). I'll find them and post them when I get on the correct computer that has them.
---

Tbh it'd still be nice since even as I read the answers in the manga, I can't remember all the details. If it's not a trouble, it'd still be good to look at them.

Dels posted...

I have now finished Umineko.

That was a really beautiful ending.

Not only did it satisfy what I wanted as a mystery story(i.e. it returned to the "mystery" of the amnesiac segment and gave me a surprising, but fitting answer) and therefore it tied its emotional beat into a twist, enriching the effect of both of them...

But it was just a very sweet scene. Battler escaped the island after all. But he also died. Fitting for this cat box themed game... He both is Battler, and is not Battler. This awkward, sad meeting between Ange and Battler in a coffee shop, decades later, with his white hair... It's incredibly bittersweet. There's no magical fantasy here, no overexagerated monologues about feelings. It's just awkward and sad.

And then the final segment with the renovated Fukuin House turned into the Dining Room, the that classic, familiar portrait of Beatrice one last time. Like I said earlier, I am a sucker for endings that bring back every character for a final goodbye - and even though episode 8 literally did this multiple times, giving every character a defining moment at the puzzle party, then another final moment in their final battle vs Erika, then another final moment as they said goodbye to Ange by the door... Well, after spending 7 months with characters (And for some, it would've been... what did you say, 4 years?), goodbyes are hard, and they take time, so I don't mind repeating them a few times anyway.

And so we get one final goodbye, as Battler's memories return (or don't - the viewer can decide what happens here) and we scroll through everyone one last time, with some more beautiful new art and each character getting one final line... truly a celebration of everything that Umineko was ultimately about. And then, as it ends, a great white space, followed by what we were all waiting for... one final picture of our beloved heroine, Beatrice. She really is one of the most beautiful characters of all time, huh?

And as her image leaves the screen and is replaced with the line of dialogue she is about to speak, you can already hear her say it in your head - because her voice has been engraved in your mind after this much time. And, just as you'd expect, she says "Battooooorrraaaaaa" in that voice, the one she always has when she does those ridiculous evil grins which were once terrifying and creepy, and then somehow became endearing and sweet in what can only be described as masterfully paradoxical writing. And the moment the words left her lips, I just completely broke down in tears, as the moment hit me and I realized that this truly was Beatrice's final goodbye... The culmination of that wonderfully written arc where we (and Battler) somehow fell in love with her despite her spending 4 chapters being nothing but over-the-top cruel and evil, making it seem natural (and not surprising at all) when they fell in love. What a ridiculous romance plot, haha. But I think just the overwhelming power of how her entire character can be summed up in that one vocal delivery is what made it such a strong moment.

Of course, Beatrice doesn't exist, and she may or may not have murdered 15 people. But that's not the point, is it?

Anyway...

Now I've unlocked the Music Box.

Thank you for following along with me for the entire first half of 2019, and let's dive in to postgame, because, well, the game's not really over until I let the internet fandom fill me in on the parts that weren't actually in the game.

I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised to see you liked the very final ending at least. And yeah, I agree that the twist was great. I am glad that Ange got to see Battler (kinda) once again and finally say goodbye to Rokkenjima.
---

I mean, like I said, I liked a lot of episode 8. The initial party section was sweet, and parts of the second half were neat as well. It was mostly a) the long action sequences after Bern's puzzle and b) yes, the lack of answers (which, as we've said, is 7's fault, not 8's) that bothered me

anyway, picking back up tomorrow as I finish going through the manga and ask a few more questions

but

before I do that:

@Everyone:

Please feel free to start sharing episode rankings and character rankings!

3 > 8 > 1 > 7 > 6 = 5 > 2 > 4

I've read through the VN once and the manga once.

6 and 5 kinda blur together in my mind. >_>
3's bait and switch was awesome and it was really the first time we get to see Battler and Beatrice's dynamics before all out meta layer madness.
I loved the ending of 8 and the Halloween parts as well. I cried a lot!
I really didn't enjoy 4's early parts.
---

If you want a more play-by-play detail example, there's an example that predates Confession, titled, aptly, Our Confession.

https://umineko.fandom.com/wiki/Our_Confession

As for ranking...eh...it's hard to do them all but let's see what I can remember off the top of my head.

Top Tier
Eva - deliciously complex and realistically conflicted, but when she's just being a sassy aunt she seems fun too
Beatrice - Hell yeah troll master, her many sides are really charming once you get to know them
Virgilia - personal bias, I like her character type and her outfit is very elegant and pretty

High Tier
Natsuhi - Like Eva, but with headaches instead of throwing shade
Hideyoshi - Cool uncle and probably the most sane of the spouses
Kyrie - Evil or not, she's got style
Will - The hottest guy in the game lol, and yeah, very cool dude with a cool sword
Battler - I guess he's here by 'default' for being the main character, but most other characters left more impression on me
Jessica - Energetic girls are nice, and her paunchs are the coolest attack between the cousins
Lambda - Once she settles into her role in late game, she's fun to see onscreen

Mid Tier
Kumasawa - I also like her archtype, not everyday you see an elderly domestic helper being (somewhat) a character
Lion - Very exciting that they are a possible fragment, and I do like their role in the Ushiromiya family, but we didn't get to see Lion all that much...
Ange - Eh, too cold and serious for me, but she does have her role
Shannon - She's shy and adorable
Rosa - Can be annoying but I think the portrayal of an abuser being in an abusive relationship is...tragically realistic
Ronove - I'm not as fond of him as most, but I do wish we get more of his back and forth with Bice
Maria - Kinda sweet when not being overly annoying
Seven Sisters - Interesting dynamics, actually, but are practically obsolete by Chiru/Answers Arc
All the Goats - Excellent set pieces
Siesta/Chiester Sisters - Actually more competent and coherent than the sisters, quite inriguing
Erika - Can be very annoying but she's a character I love to hate, so credits to that

Low Tier
Bern - Meh
Dlanor - See above
Nanjo - Inoffensive, but irrelevant. Still best walrus in the game.
George - Kinda cookie cutter. If he had shown more of his true colors that would make him more memorable!
Rudolf - Nothing too wrong with him, but he gets outshone a lot.
Krauss - Got some cool moments but mostly just a jerk
Kinzo - See above
Genji - One trick pony
Kanon - Boooring
Gohda - Doesn't do anything

Bottom Tier
Gaap - ew what even is that dress...and her personality is just neither here nor there
---

Okay, got my notes. I thought I did Ep 4, but apparently I haven't, so this is just for Ep 2 and 3. I'll probably write out notes later for Arria, since she's almost at the point where I want her to read them.

It's harder for me to say what's in red and what's not since there's more of it from here on out. If you need clarification, I'll give it. GameFAQs used to have a script or something to allow red text, but I lost it with some update. Anyone know if it's still possible somehow?

SUMMARY AND NOTES FOR EPISODE 2 MURDERS AND MYSTERIES

When I speak the truth, I will use red.
Everything I speak in red is the truth

Maria and Rosa were each given a letter by someone that they recognized as Beatrice. She told Maria not to open her letter, and that it would become an invitation to the Golden Land. She told Rosa to read her letter during dinner. However, she did not.

The First Twilight was all of the parents except for Rosa: Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie

Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door
Only one key to the chapel exists
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit
Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'
This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel (This morning refers to the morning of the second day.)
The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria
The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing
The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person

Those six were shown (to us, the audience, NOT from Battlers perspective) to be in the chapel at midnight, along with Rosa and Beatrice. All seven non-Beatrice adults confessed that they acknowledged Beatrice as a witch.
In the morning, Genji woke up Rosa and told her that the chapel had been vandalized
Rosa and Genji went to the chapel. Gohda, Shannon, and Kanon were already in front of the door
The door had Happy Halloween For Maria! written on it in red paint, along with a magic circle.
Rosa panicked because Marias name was in the creepy writing, so she ran to check on her. She told the servants to tell the other adults, but then they told her that she was the only one they could find.
Rosa got the chapel key in Marias envelope
Inside the chapter, the bodies of the six victims were found. They were seated around a table with Halloween candy stuffed inside their bellies and spilling out like intestines.
Kanon and Gohda ran to the guesthouse where the cousins and Nanjo were. Kanon asked Nanjo to come to the chapel. Gohda went into the servants room to try and contact a hospital
Battler and the cousins chased after Kanon and Nanjo
Battler saw all the dead corpses
Nanjo confirmed their deaths

Red truth:
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!! (This is referring to the chapel murder in Episode 2.)
No door with an auto-lock exists other than Kinzo's study!
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
There was no simultaneous murder!!
There was no one hiding in the chapel.
By this, a shut-in murder like you say does not work!
---

Second Twilight was Jessica and Kanon
Jessica lost her shit after seeing her dead parents in the chapel. She ran back to the mansion, to confront the witch in the VIP room.
Kanon and Gohda followed her
Jessica demanded that one of the two open the VIP room with the master key
Gohda said that would be rude. Kanon opened the door, saying that Beatrice needs to explain herself
Nobody was inside the VIP room. They found a letter. Jessica had a fit and tossed a lamp. The letter was just trolling (nothing that would help solve the mystery). It made Jessica throw even more of a fit, her asthma worsened
Kanon led Jessica to her room so she could get her inhaler
Gohda went back to be with Rosa
A magical fight occurred in Jessicas room. Kanon fought Asmodeus and some goats
The stake of Asmodeus went for Kanon, but Jessica jumped in front of it
The Stake of Satan then killed Kanon
When the living people went back to look for Jessica and Kanon, they found a magic circle on Jessicas door
The door was locked
They (including Battler) found Jessicas body pierced by a stake
Kanon was nowhere to be found

Red truth:
there are absolutely no types of hidden doors (The location in discussion refers to Jessica's room.)
This door is the only way in or out
The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant
the window is locked from the inside
Kanon was killed in this room
When locked, entry is not possible by any means
No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key
There are no hidden doors in this room
There is no way to get in or out other than the door and the window
There are no hidden doors
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included
Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that are you were not aware of
No one is hiding
No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key
Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside
There are only 5 master keys
They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!
---

Fourth and Fifth Twilight was Nanjo and Kumasawa
All living people gathered in a parlor room. Ill group them into two groups: (Rosa, Maria, George, Battler) and (Shannon, Genji, Gohda, Nanjo, Kumasawa)
Rosa gets paranoid that the servants are killers and forces them all to leave
Shannon, Genji, Gohda, Nanjo, and Kumasawa go to the kitchen
They hear a knock on the kitchen door leading outside
They gather their weapons and Kanon comes in, bleeding
They take him to the servants room to try to help him
Kanon claimed that Rosa killed Jessica and wounded him. Nanjos examination of Kanons wound is that he should have been dead. The wound went as deep as his lungs. Kanon believed that Rosa intended to massacre everyone for the gold
Kanon acts creepy as fuck, plays with his wound. Shannon thinks hes possessed by Beatrice.
Shannon gets a spider web from the boiler room and tries to put it on him
Kanon flips out and murders Nanjo and Kumasawa
During the ensuing fight, Genji throws a knife and pins Kanons hand to the wall
Shannon gave the spider web to Genji, and he touched Kanon with it. Kanon disappeared into golden butterflies, which in turn vanished into thin air.
After the deaths of Nanjo and Kumasawa, the remaining servants (Shannon, Gohda, and Genji) went back to the parlor where the Ushiromiyas (Rosa, Maria, Battler, George) were.
Rosa insists on everyone going to the servant room together to check their bodies
The corpses were missing

Red truth:
[The key to the servant room was] kept in the key box in center of the servants' room
[There are several keys to the servants' room, but] all of those are inside the key box
Entry or exit is impossible except for the single door and single window
And those were both locked
The door and the window do not permit any kind of entry or exit when they are locked
it is impossible to unlock the door without a key to the servants' room or the master key
No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon
There are only 5 master keys
---

Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Twilights were George, Gohda, and Shannon
George insists on staying with Shannon overnight
Rosa has all master keys
Rosa, Maria, and Battler return to the parlor and lock themselves in
Shannon believes that finding Natsuhis mirror will help keep Beatrice away
Genji stays in the kitchen close to the phone in case Kinzo calls
George, Shannon, and Gohda head for the chapel to retrieve the key to Natsuhis room from her corpse
As Shannon took the key from Natsuhis body, gold butterflies appear, then skirt-Beato
Butterflies chase them back to the mansion
They make it to Natsuhis room, get her mirror, then realize they stupidly left the fucking door open
Goats appear in the hallway when they go to close the door
Gohda closes the door, locks it, and pushes his body up to it to keep it shut
Beelzebub reaches through the door and kills Gohda
While George tries to get the mirror, gold butterflies attack him
Shannon gets her barrier set up to protect herself and George
A goat turns into Kanon and Beatrice makes him fight Shannon
Beatrice tears apart the barrier
Beatrice kills George and Shannon
Later, when Battler is investigating and before he got shit-faced drunk, he opened the door with a master key
He found Gohda, George, and Shannons bodies in Natsuhis room
Gohda was right in front of the door with a stake in his chest
George was against the far wall with a stake in his stomach
Shannon was face-down over the dresser. The stake was next to her. Battler knew that she had to be the gouge head and kill based on locations. He grabbed her head to check, and she did have a gaping wound in her forehead

Red truth:
Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual (In this case, usual refers to the closed room scenarios prior.)
The door and the windows were locked from the inside
There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place
Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off
Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them
And let me say this, the parlor's the same
The original key to the parlor is sealed in the servants' room
So unlocking it without the master key is impossible! The definition of a closed room is the same as always!
---

My style of writing changes with each of these episodes since I wrote them at different times. Hope it's not too distracting. >_>

EPISODE 3

30 years ago: mansion and Kuwadorian are built

19 years ago: Rosa discovers Kuwadorian and takes Beatrice beyond the walls. Beatrice then dies when she falls from a cliff.
A hidden mansion called Kuwadorian does exist in the forest of Rokkenjima (Used by Ronove in Chapter 5: Rosa and the Witch of the Forest.)
In the past, the pair actually had a conversation like that in this place (Those two refers to Kinzo and Human Beatrice.)
This is the world of 1967
In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human
It's definitely dead (Used by Beatrice. She is referring to her human self.)

Beatrice: Closed room refers to a room where the inside and the outside are completely cut off from each other. Naturally, it will be impossible to even affect things across that boundary line, much less enter or escape across it. This includes an all-inclusive denial of the existence of hidden doors, as well as all possibility of intervention from the outside. Henceforth this shall be referred to as Beatrices Closed Room Definition.

Battler: How do you define all possibility of intervention from the outside?

Beatrice: I refer to all types of direct intervention from the outside, such as using a fishing line or a long, thin rod. In conclusion, there are no gaps in the doors and windows through which such tricks will work Very well, Ill add to this definition that interference due to radio waves and related methods of remote control shall be impossible All direct and indirect methods of interfering with the inside of the closed room from the outside of the room are impossible.

FIRST TWILIGHT (Shannon, Kumasawa, Gohda, Genji, Kinzo, Kanon):

We (the audience/meta world) see Beatrice going around at midnight killing the servants through magical means. Kumasawa turns into Virgilia and fights back.
In the morning, the Ushiromiya adults wonder where the servants are at and go to investigate. This group includes Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Rosa.
Kyrie and Hideyoshi notice a terrible smell (they are unsure where it is coming from). Natsuhi says they should get Genji to take care of it rather than investigate it themselves, so they go looking for Genji, who they say should be in the servant room.
Rudolf investigates on his own anyway and discovers the smell is coming from the boiler room, but its locked and he cant get in. He joins the others.
On the way to the servant room, they pass the parlor room and see a magic circle written on the door. The door was locked, which the adults considered to be strange because it was usually never locked.
The adults split into groups: Rosa goes to check on the kids+Nanjo in the guesthouse. Rudolf continues to explore the mansion. Kyrie and Hideyoshi continue to look for the servants. Krauss goes to ask Kinzo what the heck is going on.
Kyrie, Hideyoshi, and Rosa meet in the guesthouse to confirm that the servants are missing and the kids are okay. Nanjo wakes up and joins them
Hideyoshi and Nanjo go to the mansion.
We see Krauss, Natsuhi, Rudolf, and Eva together. Krauss says he got no response when he knocked on Kinzos door. The adults discuss that they found five magic circles in the mansion: boiler room, parlor, two on the second floor, and one on the third floor.

continued...
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Rudolf suggests going to the boiler room first because a fire could start. Natsuhi says they can unlock it with a master key (carried by each servant) or the individual room keys, which are in the servant room. They look, and cant find it. They note that all the keys to rooms with magic circles are missing.
Hideyoshi and Nanjo join this main group.
Eva decides they need to enter a locked room no matter what and suggests breaking a window. Because the easiest one to break would be the parlor on the first floor, they break it first. There they find Shannon.
At this point, the game returns to the meta world and a lot of time is spent on the magical side of the story.
When we return to the gameboard, the kids are awake and crying. The adults have guns and state they found six dead bodies in a circle of closed rooms. We are told that Nanjo did an autopsy and believes they were stabbed with something like a spear, or shot by a gun.
A letter was found in the boiler room, and in it Beatrice taunts them as usual, and suggests they solve the epitaph riddle. She says she will grant gold and the headship to whoever can solve it.
In the meta world, Virgilia reconstructs the crime scene for Battler.
For the following, all closed rooms follow Beatrices closed room definition. The adults as a group collect each master key.
-Shannon was in the living room with a master key and the key to the next room in the circle. A locked room was established
-On the second floor guest room was Kumasawa, a master key, and the key to the third floor waiting room.
-In the third floor waiting room was Gohda, a master key, and the key to the second floor VIP room.
-In the second floor VIP room, they found Genji, a master key, and the key to the boiler room.
-In the boiler room, they found Kinzo, Beatrices letter, and a key to the chapel
-In the chapel, they found Kanon, a master key, and the key to the parlor.

Red truth:
There are no more than 18 people on this Rokkenjima (The Rokkenjima of 1986.)
There are five, one for each servant. (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 9: Skirmish. It refers to the master keys in this game.)
Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal. (The six rooms in this statement refers to the parlor, the chapel, the boiler room, the honored guest room, the waiting room, and the guest room.)
No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock (The manga words it differently: There is no means of locking the doors and windows of those six rooms without the keys.)
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
There is no one hiding in the six rooms!
The six people died instantly!
Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms. (Used by Ronove.)
The six people were not killed by traps (Used by Beatrice.)
None of the six people committed suicide!
There are no more than 18 people on this island
---

SECOND TWILIGHT (Rosa, Maria)
This occurs after Eva found the gold
Rosa confronts Eva in the passageway leading to the gold. They talk about how to split the gold
They go their own ways for a while and are seen with other characters in the guesthouse. By this point, the living characters as a group have decided not to stay in the mansion.
Later, Rosa takes Maria to the garden because Maria is having a fit about her rose and wants to find it.
Eva confronts Rosa and they continue their discussion from earlier
Eva turns into Evatrice, but at the same time, were shown Eva is in her guesthouse room with Hideyoshi, screaming and apparently feverish.
We are shown an great/horribly gruesome scene as Evatrice kills Rosa and Maria in torturous ways
Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Natsuhi, Battler, Jessica, and George start to wonder where Rosa and Maria are. Rudolf knocks on Eva+Hideyoshis door, and Hideyoshi tells him that Eva is sick and sleeping, but they havent seen Rosa/Maria.
Rudolf decides to go outside to look for Rosa and Maria. Battler offers to go with him, but Rudolf insists he stays back.
Eva wakes up and talks to Hideyoshi about how worried she is for Rosa and Maria. She claims to have dreamed that she became a witch and killed them.
We are told from Virgilias crime scene reconstruction that Rudolf confirmed Rosa and Marias deaths and Nanjo did an autopsy. Rosas medulla oblongata was punctured, and Maria was strangled.

Red truths:
Rosa and Maria died. The causes of death were as Nanjo diagnosed (The diagnosis for Maria and Rosa were bare handed strangling and a stab to the medulla oblongata with the pointed gate of the fence, respectively.)
Rosa's and Maria's deaths were homicides (Used by Ronove in Beatrice's stead.)
I was in the room the whole time. Both before and after the time of the crime (Used by Hideyoshi Ushiromiya in EVA-Beatrice's stead in Chapter 17: The Witch's Courtroom. The room is refering to the guesthouse second floor room.)
---

FOURTH, FIFTH, AND SIXTH TWILIGHTS (Kyrie, Rudolf, Hideyoshi):

The still-living adults and the kids discuss what is going on. They think another person is on the island. Eva becomes feverish again and faints, so Hideyoshi takes her back to their room.
There is a break with meta-world stuff, but when we return, Rudolf is talking about going to the mansion to get food. The cousins are no longer in this scene, either.
Kyrie has one master key to use as needed in the mansion. Rudolf and Hideyoshi have a gun each.
Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi go to the mansion, under the pretense of finding food
Evatrice appears in the mansion with the stakes.
Kyrie, Rudolf, and Hideyoshi go to the kitchen and gather supplies. Kyrie asks Hideyoshi to pull the cart and so she takes his gun.
Kyrie has a bad feeling that someone is waiting to ambush them.
They try to go through the kitchens back door, which is locked. They suspect a trap. Rudolf is unable to unlock the door, so they go back through the front entrance
They are confronted by the stakes. They split up and run through the mansion, chased by stakes.
Rudolf sees Evatrice and asks if she is Eva. She says it used to be her name, but now shes Beatrice. Rudolf says he had a general idea of what was going on, ever since Rosa died.
Rudolf points his gun at Evatrice, but Belphegor jumped in the way and fought him.
Kyrie fights Leviathan in a hallway and wins
Rudolf has a duel with Belphegor in the main lobby, and he shoots her. She attacks back, but Rudolf wins
Kyrie dashes back into the room where Rudolf just shot Belphegor. Kyrie points her gun at Evatrice and runs to help Rudolf.
Evatrice summons the Chiester sisters who kill Rudolf and Kyrie as they run away.
Evatrice tortures Rudolf and Kyrie a bit, until Hideyoshi returns, picks up one of the fallen guns, and tells her to stop. Hideyoshi accuses her of killing Rosa, Maria, Rudolf, and Kyrie, and he asks why she did it. They argue about the murders, and Hideyoshi grabs Evatrice and smacks her head. He dropped his gun prior to this
Gunfire rings out and kills Hideyoshi. The gun which went off was in the corner by Rudolfs body. We are told it was floating in midair.

Back in the guesthouse, Natsuhi and Krauss discuss what theyll do if the others dont return. Eva wakes up and joins them. She asks where Hideyoshi is, to which they tell her that he went to the mansion to get supplies.
The cousins+Nanjo hear the commotion from upstairs and come down to see whats happening.
Eva suggests going to search for the ones who went into the mansion. George and Battler agree to follow Eva, as well as Nanjo once Eva asks him to come along. Jessica, Natsuhi, and Krauss stay in the guesthouse.
The four (Eva, Battler, George, Nanjo) go to the mansion and confirm the bodies/deaths of Kyrie, Rudolf, and Hideyoshi. They did not find the master key or two guns left behind, and assume they were taken by the culprit.

Red truths:
Eva did not kill Hideyoshi! (Manga only)
Kyrie didn't think that they needed food. Since going for food without a day wouldn't kill them, she claimed that they should not leave the guesthouse. And yet, she herself suggested that they leave the guesthouse to get food (Used by EVA-Beatrice. The scenario in question is the event where Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi went outside to get food.)
Too bad, the reason she changed her mind was not passed on to anyone, nor was it written down
Until the last instant before she died, Kyrie's behavior pattern of 'not going to get food = not going to the mansion' was maintained
Kyrie did not leave anything written down
---

SEVENTH AND EIGTH TWILIGHTS (Natsuhi, Krauss):

(this ties in with the ninth twilight, but it happens now, so Im putting it here): Back in the guesthouse, the remaining seven people barricade themselves inside. Eva, Natsuhi, and Krauss guard the first floor. Jessica, George, Battler, and Nanjo are in the upstairs cousins room.
George is looking over photos of Shannon and crying. He decides he wants to see her corpse for himself.
We, the audience, are shown a magical scene, where George goes outside the cousins room, meets Beatrice, and opens a second-floor window. He flies to the living room where Shannons body was. Shannon is temporarily revived and has a conversation with George.

In the guesthouse, Eva is still sick/feverish. She dozes off and then chokes when she wakes up. She says she will go wash her face, and then make some coffee for everyone on the way back. While shes in the bathroom, Evatrice orders the Siesta sisters to kill Natsuhi and Krauss, and they do so.

Battler, Jessica, and Nanjo come downstairs to see where George went. The three of them dozed off, so it has now been a few hours since he left. Nanjo mentions that George asked if he wanted coffee before he left the room. At this time, Battler, Jessica, and Nanjo learn that Natsuhi and Krauss have gone missing.
Eva and Jessica effectively lose their shit, calling out for the missing relatives. They decide to go search the mansion. On the way, they find Natsuhis and Krausss bodies in the garden arbor. Nanjos autopsy suggested they were strangulated by something like a cord around their necks. The stakes were imbedded into a knee and leg.

REMAINING DEATHS (George, Nanjo, Battler, Jessica):

In the mansion, the last four look for survivors. Eva goes to the parlor where Shannons body was found earlier. Now there is a number (07151129). They go inside, and find Georges body. Shannons body is gone.
Jessica thinks Eva killed her parents, so she grabs her and they fight. During the scuffle, Evas gun goes off and she blinds Jessica.
Eva rushes off into the mansion, and Battler follows her
Nanjo takes Jessica to the servant room to bandage her eyes.
Nanjo goes outside to see if anyone is coming back, and he sees someone (We are shown Evatrice). This person shoots him, and this initiates the Red Web meta-world battle. Throughout all this, Jessica (still blind) hears Kanons voice and he guides her to safety. He says he cannot touch her, so she must follow his vocal instructions.
Theres a meta-world scene involving the red web. At the end, we return to the game board to see Eva shoot Battler.
We never see how Jessica dies
We are only told that everyone but Eva died.
In Ep 4, Ange comes to the island long after the incident occurred and she notes she is unable to go to the mansion because it is gone. She is standing at the top of a cliff and she cannot go down to investigate.
---

The Red Web:

After Jessica was injured, Eva was always under Battler's supervision.
Battler is neither the culprit nor an accomplice.
By this, we can establish a perfect alibi for Eva
There are no more than 18 people on this island
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead
Battler is alive
Eva is alive
Jessica is alive
Eva was with you the whole time.
So committing a crime was impossible for her.
Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit.
He wasn't forging an alibi for her, and he took the possibility that she was the culprit into account, watching her actions carefully.
No chance existed for her to do anything suspicious!
In short, at the time of the crime, only Nanjo and Jessica were in the servants' room
Ushiromiya Jessica did not commit murder!
She was not involved with Nanjo's murder
Her eyes were completely blocked.
It's impossible for her to carry out a murder like that
Neither Eva nor Battler killed Nanjo, nor were they involved
The culprit who killed Nanjo was neither Battler nor Eva nor Jessica
Jessica's eyes were completely blocked, and murder was impossible for her (This is in response to Battler's statement about Jessica having multiple personalities.)
No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo
This also applies to Battler and Eva
neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo
Nanjo was killed by another person
Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap
A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him!
The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him
The red only tells the truth
Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board (This is in response to any factor such as animals or robots that might have been involved.)
The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human
A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it!
Right before his eyes!
---

And that's all I got for notes.

Here's Arria's ranking as of episode 5. I haven't made a ranking of my own yet:

Kyrie (A: Still a gorgeous crazy bitch, you keep your spot but only for now.)
Dlanor (A: I have a weakness for executioners okay Dont judge me or my bad judiciary puns.)
Natsuhi (A: Well dear we all knew one of my pets would be put on trial for something looks like you drew the short straw, it did however get you a higher ranking.)
(A: As an aside the top three this time basically exemplify the plot of my favorite novel this both says a lot about me and makes me a little uncomfortable.)
Rudolf
Genji
Chiester 00
Ronove
Ange
Mammon
Beatrice (A: Rest in peace you crazy bitch)
Chiester 556
Satan
Shannon (A: Due to my new pet theory)
Chiester 45
Belphegor
Virgilia
Gohda
Amakusa
Beelzebub
Gaap (A: I still cannot deal with your shoes, Gaap but you did amuse me more this time round.)
Asmodeus
Battler
Chiester 410
Lucifer
George
Hideyoshi
Kanon
Maria
Eva
Jessica
Leviathan
Krauss (A: You are a spineless little worm and Natsuhi is too good for you, you little bastard.)
The Walrus
Sakutaro
Bernkastel
Erika (A: Bitch is creezy. Half creepy, half crazy, entirely Put that thing back where it came from or so help me)
Kumasawa
Lambdadelta
Rosa
Kinzo
Kasumi
Eva-Beatrice
---

Eerieka posted...

EPISODE 3

FIRST TWILIGHT (Shannon, Kumasawa, Gohda, Genji, Kinzo, Kanon):

Red truth:

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

I don't get it then. The manga says that Shannon and Kanon's bodies were faked.

But then it also says that Eva commits the rest of the murders (mostly), so what is Shannon doing after that? Just killing Nanjo...? And then dies anyway?

Dels posted...

I don't get it then. The manga says that Shannon and Kanon's bodies were faked.

The red truth interacting with Shannon and Kanon's life/death status is by far the least satisfying part of that solution imo, and why I dismissed it outright when theorizing post-ep 4/while waiting for Ep 5's translation.

I am pretty sure that for those two specifically it's referring to them as characters within the narrative that Yasu constructed (i.e whenever Yasu appears/does anything within the rest of the story, it will not be as Shannon or Kanon, but instead as Beatrice since that's the only remaining option)

(And yes, Yasu is just hanging around the mansion out of sight during most of ep 3. IIRC, she stopped her own plans because the epitaph was solved and had no idea more murders were going on until she saw Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideyoshi's corpses at which point the stakes were placed and she started doing things)

Shannon and Kanon are characters invented by Yasu. Whether they're alive or dead is something Yasu determines by fiat. The red truth doesn't have any bearing on whether Yasu is alive or dead.

The biggest illustration of this is EP3, where Shannon and Kanon are revived for their loved ones; in other words, Yasu chooses to play those characters a bit longer to satisfy George and Jessica. The references to theater that are emphasized from ep6 on are probably also hinting at this.
---

oh, and also in episode 2:

Red truth:

Kanon was killed in this room