Board 8 > English Literature Mafia Topic 24: Denouement

(+) Yeah! (+)

I forgot there was ever a ScareChan in this game. fucking hell we've been here a month

Obellisk posted...

See my previous post. No one is going to follow me to the right lynch. I bended the knee to puns. It yielded the wrong result, but I'd still do it again.

They didn't need to follow you. I was at -1 for a lot of the day. Ulti would just need to revote. It's very easy.
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(3) Sheep: Lopen, puns, SBell
(1) Lopen: (Ulti), Ulti, (Sheep)

Wait no

SHEEP would need to revote. You know, the guy who was lynched? Are you kidding me here.
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And we'll never know if it would have happened.

Not sure why arguing the point matters.

Bottom line here is that I am the easy mislynch because of my track record this game. It's why I am still alive even after being double scanned and you my friend are eating it up.

Puns is clearly town, and if he's not, then bully for him, very deserved.

Ulti has not been at all like the scum Ulti I've known in the past and if he is, again, bully for him, he did an amazing job masking himself and I'm proud of him.

Lopen, was fluffy early, and only when called out on it did he begin to fill the game with actual content. Unfortunately it was unhelpful because he liked to argue theory over actual game. And then he spent the rest of the game continuing to argue various theories in order to manipulate town into lynching town.
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Lopen posted...

(3) Sheep: Lopen, puns, SBell
(1) Lopen: (Ulti), Ulti, (Sheep)

Wait no

SHEEP would need to revote. You know, the guy who was lynched? Are you kidding me here.

Yeah and sheep wanted to lynch me. He wouldn't follow me onto you. Are you kidding me?
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Obellisk posted...

Yeah and sheep wanted to lynch me. He wouldn't follow me onto you. Are you kidding me?

Sheep had voted me earlier in the day

He had not voted you earlier in the day

This thinking does not follow. He would absolutely vote me if the alternative was no lynch or him.
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Lopen.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to defend anything to you. You are scum attempting to manipulate Ulti and puns into mislynching me.

I have had an absolute shit game and if I was actually scum the scum team would have probably bussed me into oblivion day one. Can you show me where that happened? Cause it didn't.
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Obellisk posted...

Lopen, was fluffy early, and only when called out on it did he begin to fill the game with actual content. Unfortunately it was unhelpful because he liked to argue theory over actual game. And then he spent the rest of the game continuing to argue various theories in order to manipulate town into lynching town.

There were two scum lynched this game that were not purely scans. I spearheaded one of them. You can't actually say I was unhelpful. I'd argue scans aside it's hard to argue I wasn't the second most helpful player in the game.

Hell most of the town lynches I argued against. Granted I argued for other town lynches that did not occur, but you are the one being manipulative to present the game in that way
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I just finished day 1 so it's time for dinner.

look how much of a fucking bro benjamin is

benjamin3740 posted...

Day 1 Townies:
Tom
Puns
Scare
Lea
Cam
HB
Dowolf

my man

UltimaterializerX posted...

You more or less ignore two things with that. One, scum may have just killed Tom directly. Did you not mention this as a possibility or did I miss it? Did you find a post from Tom anywhere where he names Stu scum?

He voted SBell several times. On day 3 he was on the SBell lynch early. On day 1 he was on the SBell push late. He hadn't voted us three ever. He also cited Chris at random the day he died, specifically in a town calling context, who called all of us as town, which I think was a hint (SBell was dead last on Chris's town list)

And scum shooting Tom directly doesn't seem likely when we had two confirmed cops on the table. Even if SBell is a super godfather the extra scans limit the mislynch pool.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

You went from calling him a flavor trap to lynching him, for reasons I still don't understand if you actually are town.

Stop beating that dead horse dude

You repeatedly saying I said something that was a very minor part of my argument does not make it a good argument
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I feel good about Puns determining SBell the most likely scum as I have. I really think if you took the "don't wanna get fooled by scum Lopen!!!" hat you would come to that as well, just based off today's interaction even. SBell's push on me has been completely absurd from the view of someone who could have lynched me yesterday very easily
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I'm around, I actually dozed off to sleep on the couch earlier

UltimaterializerX posted...

Can you HONESTLY blame me?!

I do cause I don't actually think my scum play is very good. I think my town play is stronger.

Every game you've been citing I've been third party, or mafia hunting third party. That's basically town play when you boil it down.
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Well I've only made it through day 1, I want to at least get through day 2 and 3 as well. They should probably go faster. Might do it tonight but tomorrow seems more likely.

I have notes but honestly I don't want to comment a lot as I go and have people react and influence my thoughts as I go.

Struggling some with the mindset of what I should draw on from last game final 3 and what I should ignore.

Guess I'll comment on the no kill though.

The only person SBell should want to kill would be me. However, because nobody else would want to kill me, SBell can't kill me so he'd have to no kill.

Similarly...

The only person Lopen should want to kill is Ulti. However, because nobody else would want to kill Ulti, Lopen can't kill him so he'd have to no kill.

That's how that seems to me, which is why I think it tells us nothing.

And I also feel that trying to talk about Tom and who he may have targeted is a fool's errand.

In fact yeah, with 1 scum left after death's lynch, Tom can hard confirm someone as town every night where a kill happens. Of course scum would shoot him directly.

UltimaterializerX posted...

turbopuns3 posted...

In fact yeah, with 1 scum left after death's lynch, Tom can hard confirm someone as town every night where a kill happens. Of course scum would shoot him directly.

Right.

And Im miffed that Lopen didnt think of this. Like wouldnt town realize this immediately?

I don't know maybe we're all scum because no one thought of it immediately? I was just 'corrected' on this and I've been running at it since last game day.

That wasn't intuitive to me that Tom would autoclear every night he didn't draw the kill successfully but yeah I guess that does make sense. However I will tell you that it's still not that good as puns is implying. Conventional wisdom until yesterday was that it was two scum. It only becomes obvious by the end of the game that there are only one scum. Many of the clears by that time are dead, particularly since Tom is generally going to be thumbing suspicious folk. Scans are still better clears cause it prevents a mislynch now since town was speculating two scum.
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Doesn't matter. Tom obviously could clear people more effectively than either Ben or 5tarscream (most likely anyway)

turbopuns3 posted...

The only person SBell should want to kill would be me. However, because nobody else would want to kill me, SBell can't kill me so he'd have to no kill.

Similarly...

The only person Lopen should want to kill is Ulti. However, because nobody else would want to kill Ulti, Lopen can't kill him so he'd have to no kill.

Also I disagree with this.

While you can argue I'd only want to kill Ulti I'm not sure this is much better. SBell has been lightly (not as heavily as Ulti, despite his claims, else I'd be dead) anti-me this whole game too. As scum trying to reason out both of them seems less reasonable than trying to just sell puns on SBell, to me. I think saying I'd no kill is overthinking it and I'd gamble the risk of people trying to pin it on me that Ulti. But maybe that would be a misplay.

And I think Ulti and SBell could both justify killing you puns to the point where I don't think SBell is giving himself up by doing so. I do think it fits SBell's personality to not want to argue me to death in a death match though, which is what he'd have to do in a three way with me and Ulti even if he had an advantage coming in.

I am not saying what you're saying has no merit but I think you're being a bit hasty to discard ideas you did not come up with between this and the Tom thing. The Tom thing in particular doesn't really make sense when you think about it. If 5tarscream got one less scan off I still think there's 2 scum yesterday, and the rest of you were one day behind me, so Tom's information he can give is really limited if it's only useful at final 3/4.
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turbopuns3 posted...

Doesn't matter. Tom obviously could clear people more effectively than either Ben or 5tarscream (most likely anyway)

Not really

Consider a hypothetical where Tom used his ability on Lea and Sheep and lived two more nights. Do you think town avoids lynching them based on that with the fear of two scum still out there?

We're at this point and Tom's clearing has done nothing

There is a chance it could matter, but it's unlikely it matters in time
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Still. There is no argument to be made about Tom which makes it worth looking at *potential* breadcrumbs, of which there are multiple, each from which we can't be sure who he would have chosen, on top of the fact we have to assume scum didn't shoot him to put any stock into it.

There's just next to zero merit in trying to base a decision on Tom.

I mean I guess there could be something more blatant, frankly I haven't looked so I'm taking your word at the best guess which can be made. Which is poor by me if you're scum but at the same time I'm saying I'm not going to factor it in so like whether your reporting on Tom is complete and truthful doesn't matter much to me.

The one night Tom had a chance to confirm someone town and live to tell it, he used it on a guy everyone already thought was town. :(

I definitely disagree there. You say scum kills Tom before scanners and I'm just not thinking that makes sense. If we knew for sure or if anyone was even pitching 5 scum that'd be one thing but everyone was saying 6. Scans are useful for clearing people before they get mislynched. Tom only clears people at this step, and if scum is smart with kills they can weed out the ones that are not lynch targets. Say for example yesterday we thought it was two scum and we lynch sheep and say Tom scanned me and a dead person. Scum kills me and yeah, information not being actionable till final 3 or 4 is a huge drawback. Huge. I'd be shocked if scumteam thought he was a concern before the two scanners

And it's not even a matter of breadcrumbs necessarily (though I do think those were breadcrumbs because it was such a non-sequitur) as much as "which of us did Tom suspect most" and the answer is SBell easily there.
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Ok well you can disagree I'm still not entertaining it

Anyone can discard any useful information they want. I'm just saying you're not thinking it through well enough if you don't think there's value in it.
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k

I guarantee you it's probably more valuable than rereading all of day 1 but you do you. Follow your process. Dr House would not be so heavy handed in discarding things though let me tell you.
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Ulti is the House fan, you're pandering to the wrong player

Though I'm pretty sure from the little bit I've seen that House loves to dismiss things which he deems boring

I think you're being a bit conceited in general, really. Like, you're up on your island, deliberating, looking down on my ideas cause you didn't come to em.

I think there's probably been better scumhunting to be had during this day by discussing with people. Yeah one of us are scum but two of us are town. Whatever you're doing, it taking so long and you getting no reactions while doing it, is probably not nearly as helpful as you think it is.

Honestly, to vent a bit, this town in general has been conceited. It's probably why we've had so many mislynches. No one is willing to listen to arguments anymore. So many in this game saying "but mah gut" and won't move votes around for anything it's like "okay your gut says this but can you respond to this point here" and they're like "good point BUT I don't agree with it"

I mean it's telling when I feel I've compromised the most out of players in this game, between putting votes on dowolf to get him to claim and wavering on my conviction with you yesterday. Historically I feel I've been more conceited than most in this game but man these days it seems a lot worse.
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Like if SBell actually is scum I think over time he's had the best argument for voting him other than maybe sheep

But it's like naw we gotta lynch the unscanned. Gotta play them percentages, even if we think Cam is town. Gotta do it.

Bleh, whatever. You have fun dude.
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No frankly Lopen it's not about being conceited, it's about the fact I already know in my view that Town Thumb-Biter mortally, iron clad confirms town players beyond shadow of a doubt with 1 scum left, and that is rather more threatening to a mafia team whose last team member is obviously a godfather role.

But I did not feel like debating this with you as it has no value it being debated because you're not going to agree with it.

turbopuns3 posted...

Thumb-Biter mortally, iron clad confirms town players beyond shadow of a doubt with 1 scum left,

It only works when town knows there is one scum left.

If Tom bit his thumb at Sheep, Lea, Cam, they're not confirmed till today and they're already dead. He bites his thumb at one of us, scum course corrects and just kills one of us

Like I said you're just not thinking it through well enough if you dumb it down that much. Mortal lock scans that are not useful till the last day of the game are often not useful because the targets have been weeded out.
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Like say Tom had bit his thumb at Lea instead of 5tar. You think 50% chance she's not scum keeps her alive? I don't
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See? pointless to debate.

It's only pointless to debate because you're poor at representing your side or you know I'm right (or at least have "some merit") after I've unpacked it more and don't want to admit it.

Information being actionable is important. The last role being godfather is nice and all but even if you know people aren't cleared 100% you can avoid mistakes. 5tar getting one more scan than expected is what let me determine only one scum was left and play yesterday a bit differently than normal. Also I think if we have Cam or Lea cleared by one or more scans before they died we probably lynch sheep or hell SBell before them and finish the game off sooner rather than playing percentages.

Thumb bites just don't do that for you if the town is wrong about the number of scum left until it's too late.
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Thumb bites mortally confirm town.

Cop does not. Flavor cop does not.

I know what you're saying

I'm saying they don't until you know 1 scum is left, though, which 2/4 of us didn't until today.

If you think Tom thumbing someone with multiple scum left "confirms" them I should be confirmed since Tom bit his thumb at me when only 3 scum were left. It's as much like 2 as 1 is like 2.
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And to reiterate, I'm not saying that SBell is town nor am I saying Tom didn't successfully intercept a shot which was headed at someone else.

I'm saying it's a bigger unknown and less reliable data point than other things.

turbopuns3 posted...

I'm saying it's a bigger unknown and less reliable data point than other things.

and as such I don't see value in spending my time discussing it today.