Board 8 > Wwe mafia Topic 3.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Hold the phone.

UltimaterializerX posted...

2 posts from Puns. He says he went to sleep here to go to work, which I accept. A man has to sleep! As such, pages 7 and 8 have no posts from Puns (ignore the URL numbers, GameFAQs blows and they're always off by one).

Ulti was looking up stats from a game where I was town. Like, game is over, flipped, confirmed town.

Why does he make this comment as if he's somehow conceding a point in an argument about my alignment from last game which is a literal known fact?

HA HA

##Unvote
##Vote: Ulti

Nice effort but you slipped up.

Puns I don't get the gotcha. What am I not seeing
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Leafeon13N posted...

Also i know someone is going to kick me for saying this but Scare came out strong and then has been a noticeable nonpresence today. Something to keep an eye on after last game.

? Expand on all of this please?
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Obellisk posted...

Puns I don't get the gotcha. What am I not seeing

He failed to replicate what his town mindset should have been during that archive search.

See?

That remark wasn't showing skepticism as it pertains to this game. It is (quite illogically) indicative of skepticism toward me from last game. Which makes no sense.

He was putting in a bunch of effort on a scum post and got his wires crossed.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

turbopuns3 posted...

SBell I'm voting you, why is that

Han is there something you'd like to say

Nevermind the fact that several of the reads Ulti has provided in this game have been based on MYSTERY TELLS which he doesn't elaborate about. And several more are all in reference to last game.

And I actually don't buy him just sheeping Han so...easily, as he did here to vote SBell. Paired with the ultimatum language he used about SBell "nothing he can say will change my mind".

He's just scum.

Do you think that SBell is Town then?
---

I want to say I've seen this staunch refusal to be wrong in town Ulti before. I really can't picture the game though.

I'll break ranks and lynch him this game but at this moment in time his attack on me really doesn't feel like it's coming from scum. If it is he will have managed to play scum three separate ways against town sbell and fool me 2 of those 3.
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Do you think that SBell is Town then?

I wouldn't place any bets on his alignment at this point.

If SBell is town I think minimum one of Han/Ulti is scum.

If Ulti is scum I think SBell is scum.

I think Ulti is scum.

Obellisk posted...

If it is he will have managed to play scum three separate ways against town sbell and fool me 2 of those 3.

I don't mean any offense but this wouldn't exactly surprise me. When Ulti has time to devote to the game and is in a good mood he's a very fluid player.

Oh I'm now on a team with Ulti.
Well fuxk that.

Any time i have ever been scum with him I've bussed the shit out of that.
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turbopuns3 posted...

Obellisk posted...

If it is he will have managed to play scum three separate ways against town sbell and fool me 2 of those 3.

I don't mean any offense but this wouldn't exactly surprise me. When Ulti has time to devote to the game and is in a good mood he's a very fluid player.

None taken, he's not bad at mafia. Sometimes he let's his bravado get the best of him. And his first game back he was pure shit. But he is not someone I would discount to win a game for town if given the opportunity.
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turbopuns3 posted...

If Ulti is scum I think SBell is scum.

I should say, if Ulti is scum I think SBell could still be scum, but not that it's a 100% surefire thing. I'm just saying I don't think Ulti's attacks on SBell so far this game are outside the realm of bussing.

turbopuns3 posted...

turbopuns3 posted...

If Ulti is scum I think SBell is scum.

I should say, if Ulti is scum I think SBell could still be scum, but not that it's a 100% surefire thing. I'm just saying I don't think Ulti's attacks on SBell so far this game are outside the realm of bussing.

Well sure, it's all wifom buddy.
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Got some catching up to do

Okay Puns is town, reread the beginning of this topic if you doubt it. He's genuinely annoyed at how Ulti is attacking his activity. Like, look at that and tell me the mindset is anything but "what the fuck is this guy for real attacking me for this stupid shit". It does not read like fake, forced anger at all. That said I don't get the case on Ulti, how is that mixing up his suspicion between games (is this even a thing that happens?) when he's using the fact that you went to sleep to explain why you didn't post for a while to try to show you were only lower on activity last game when you were busy, unlike this game in his mind? That doesn't really add up to me.

SBell has been super defensive and kind of defeatist this game, like the majority of his posts are getting frustrated at suspicion of him and lamenting it (what was with that post about not being vengeful enough to be okay with being mislynched?). That said it's starting to feel more like an attitude thing than an alignment thing. I don't want to lynch him today as it stands, but I do like several of the people on him, so could Han, Ulti or Puns (I know you just unvoted but you're there in spirit) reiterate the case on him beyond just him being kind of frustrated/mopey?

Not liking IGCD pretty much saying he doesn't feel the need to provide any thoughts, I know people are saying that he's like this in general but that's kind of an easy excuse to hide behind. IGCD, you said at one point that you felt like people were just posting a whole bunch of nothing. What about the discussions that had been going on made you think they weren't particularly relevant? Right now that's feeling like just a way to give yourself an excuse for not posting much by acting like it's not worth your attention anyway.

Still pretty sold on Death being scum. I want to draw attention to this post to add to what's been said before.

htaeD posted...

actually Eaed could replace Puns on that list
If only for this confusing waffle of a sentence I just came across.

-Corrik feels like scum, at the time it seemed like he had a true contraction on Death. It makes me like Corrik but I like Corrik early last game too.

He later backed off on it when Eaed said he'd mistyped and meant to say "feels like he's hunting scum" (lot of words to forgot, but okay). When I saw this post, I got confused for a moment and then realized Eaed just typed the wrong thing. I do not trust putting Eaed on the Gladiator target list over this when it's so easy to realize what was meant. If he said he disliked the post for the hedge on Corrik, sure, but he only went to that after Eaed clarified what he meant to say. This feels like someone just going for an easy/obvious contradiction to push instead of really thinking things through to figure them out.

Ulti, you said you think Death *is* trying to figure the game out and that as scum, he fakes activity. I don't see him trying to figure things out, and he's posted a lot while being pretty non-committal and got caught up in the Corrik argument for ages (in fairness, Corrik is good at distracting people). What are you seeing here differently than I am?

Pez, how recent is your experience playing mafia with Tom? You seem very sure he hasn't changed his play. In particular, why was his little flavour trap thing against Corrik a play you can't see him making as scum?

Death is scum. Don't like IGCD much. I'm seeing a lot of talk about Red being a scummy lurker but no one seems to want to do anything about it, which is fine by me because I don't really see it (Red is often lurky as town and he has reason to be busy here). Tom has been very fluffy. Actually Tom why were you treating Han/SBell as if it had to be scum/town and not town/town, but thinking that either could be the scum (though you lean more to SBell obviously)?
---

Panth.

Thoughts on 5tar?
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Obellisk posted...

Panth.

Thoughts on 5tar?

He hasn't done all that much besides declare you bad town and argue that Scare is protecting Death. Then he seemed to soften his stance on Death being scum but kept thinking Scare was despite I think his original argument for Scare as scum being that he was defending a teammate in Death? Going to reread his content, I feel like I should have taken more note of him than I have so far
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ScareChan posted...

? Expand on all of this please?

All?

Because most of it is last game you just showed up to tunnel sultan and then would vanish. The rest i dont think i need to expand much on. First 24 hours you came out swinging, last 24 hours not so much.

( the 24 hours are approximation my timing is all messy)

Just caught up and have a few minutes before lessons. I can't beleive we're literally at the same point. Like we've spent hours just going round in circles.

I thought originally scare was white knighting death because of the timing of his posts and because he jumped on a 5tar must be scum because he's being too soft despite the fact that I wasn't being soft. Death was.
Han has offered nothing in way of any read on me other than to say yeah I agree with Scare's terrible read based on the opposite of what was happening.
SBell I actually still think is playing poor town and is focusing on me because he's worried that he is himself going to get lynched and instead of looking at the people driving the votes on him he's looking at me because I argued with him a lot.
Ulti is starting to look more peculiar the more he posts. First of all begging Corrik to use the dayvig on him doesn't make sense, if you think he is town then why are you trying to call him out and expose his claim that he was using to exert pressure on people he was suspicious of. Like in what way does asking for the dayvig help the other town players. Nobody has 100% reads on D1 even the best players. Han himself even admitted he makes mistakes sometimes like he is with me.
Red and IGCD it's hard to tell for different reasons. IGCD has basically just shown up to throw a vote with little reasoning behind I think they're scum. Red has been patchy which is explainable by his Disney visit but also gives him a ready made excuse to hide out and lurk if he wants too I wouldn't push for a lynch on either of them yet because there simply isn't enough evidence of them being scum for me to push yet but I will be watching both closely going forward.
Pez I had as a hard town lock bnecause I bought his reasoning and explanation for Tom suspicions and more importantly he stated his reason but also said that's my read you should all make your own decisions and I feel like he was posting to help town make their own decisions instead of trying to tell everyone do this now.
Death I'm in the air about. I feel like my reads on him are so heavily influenced by what I think of others. Like his play with Corrik seems to me to be more town but the scare thing is still confusing me. Like if Scare isn't white knighting Death then I have no idea what on earth is going through his Scare's head.

TL;DR Ulti leaning Scum. Han leaning scum. Scare is scum.
Tom i'm not sure about he seems off I'll agree with that. Death I'm also not sure about at the moment.
IGCD, red, Mzero no idea their activity hasn't really given me anything to go on.
Panth, pez, corrik, ea, sbell I think are town.

Okay 5tar

First off before he ever posted I see Corrik's argument that he can't be scum with Death because Death was too unclear about who he was. This isn't definitive but it's a solid argument, so I'm inclined to buy him because I think Death is scum.

His first post was reiterating other points on SBell/Death, but he made a point I remember liking at the time that Death knows Corriks style well enough to not let it get to him as town...though thinking about it, he should also know to not let it get to him as scum, so I'm not sure that really means much. He says these two are deflecting attention which...is not how I'd describe it. SBell had been frustrated by attacks on him, but didn't seem to be trying to avoid them. Same for Death, he was more just denying than deflecting (though 5tar's point that Death was more focused on defending himself at the time than on finding scum rings true).

His shift to SBell as bad town seems kind of abrupt. Okay he didn't soften his read on Death as much as I thought, said he was still leaning scum on him, just a bit less so. I find it a bit odd that he then moved on to focusing more on Scare without acknowledging his original reason for suspecting Scare was dependent on Death being scum though, there should be little reason not to want Death first. Actually, let me check the timeline of Scare defending Death...

First time he said Death was town after Corrik started going for him was a few hours later and it was just putting his name on a town list, no explanation. References Death being town a few more times, doesn't expand much until he's talking to Corrik and explains he feels Death would scramble more if he fucked up as scum. This isn't even directly in response to Corrik, seems more like he's just explaining a read he'd mentioned a few times. He even gives SBell an answer for Corriks suspicion on Death instead of giving it some sort of dismissive response. Not seeing this big defense...

Yeah okay this logic for disliking Scare doesn't add up. He brought up reading Death as town, yeah, but didn't really defend him exactly. He said he didn't want Death to be Gladiator'd, but only after Corrik was grilling him on how to use the role. 5tar's big point here seems to be that he dislikes Scare calling his pressure on Death soft, and then he extrapolates from there to make the whole Scare Defends Death conspiracy a thing. 5tar is basically banking on Scare attacking him being to protect Death, but Scare first called him scum before Death was under meaningful pressure.

Based on this reread, I don't feel good about him. It kind of looks like he replied to Scare saying he was playing kind of timid by looking for an excuse to go after him, but the process he followed to there doesn't really add up. His last post was saying his priority was to look over Scare's posts when he had the chance, but again, he got onto Scare's case to begin with by thinking Scare was attacking him to defend Death. If I'm wrong about Death being scum, then 5tar is definitely scum. If Death is scum, it's harder to say because Corrik was right that Death seeming to think 5atr is new is a tougher sell if they're teammates. Leaning scum on him regardless, as Death has played with the guy before (as Corrik noted) so any mixup in who he is could just be genuine regardless of alignment.
---

Who did I miss?
Oh Puns I think is town. His indignation at Ulti seems legit and I think Ulti is scum and setting up puns for a future lynch.

Panthera posted...

Pez, how recent is your experience playing mafia with Tom? You seem very sure he hasn't changed his play. In particular, why was his little flavour trap thing against Corrik a play you can't see him making as scum?

Both Tom and I last played 2 years ago. I dont see him doing this as scum because I dont think he tries any gotcha stuff like that period as scum. Especially not so cinfrontationally. But as town it is the kind of thing I'd expect him to wonder about. As scum I'd expect him to be working with scum buddies on how to deal with Corrik.
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Panthera posted...

I'm seeing a lot of talk about Red being a scummy lurker but no one seems to want to do anything about it, which is fine by me because I don't really see it (Red is often lurky as town and he has reason to be busy here). Tom has been very fluffy. Actually Tom why were you treating Han/SBell as if it had to be scum/town and not town/town, but thinking that either could be the scum (though you lean more to SBell obviously)?

Its not just being busy. It's that he's actually lurking. He pops in and makes no effort to seriously contribute. This is a very common scum tactic by Red. The only I'm not voting him is that I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt on being busy.
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5tarscream posted...

Who did I miss?
Oh Puns I think is town. His indignation at Ulti seems legit and I think Ulti is scum and setting up puns for a future lynch.

please vote for Ulti

Oh speak of the devil

5tarscream posted...

.
Death I'm in the air about. I feel like my reads on him are so heavily influenced by what I think of others. Like his play with Corrik seems to me to be more town but the scare thing is still confusing me. Like if Scare isn't white knighting Death then I have no idea what on earth is going through his Scare's head.

TL;DR Ulti leaning Scum. Han leaning scum. Scare is scum.
Tom i'm not sure about he seems off I'll agree with that. Death I'm also not sure about at the moment.

Alright, so, how did you get to this point where Scare is scum and Death is unsure? You admit you don't know what else Scare could be doing if he's not trying to defend Death. So why don't you feel like Scare's alignment is dependent on Death rather than the other way around? And why would Scare attack you to defend Death, but not anyone else that was after Death (he didn't attack Corrik, and while he said he leaned scum on me, he didn't dwell on it much, and we were both going for Death too) while also not making his town read on Death much of a focus? You don't know what's going through Scare's head if he isn't defending Death, but then how can you read him as scum if you don't know Death is scum (your wording on his defense of Death seems to imply a defense on a teammate rather than buddying up to town, and buddying again calls into question why he wouldn't argue the town read on Death more)?
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pezloco posted...

Both Tom and I last played 2 years ago. I dont see him doing this as scum because I dont think he tries any gotcha stuff like that period as scum. Especially not so cinfrontationally. But as town it is the kind of thing I'd expect him to wonder about. As scum I'd expect him to be working with scum buddies on how to deal with Corrik.

I guess this comes back to how sure you are that you still know his play so well after 2 years.

pezloco posted...

Its not just being busy. It's that he's actually lurking. He pops in and makes no effort to seriously contribute. This is a very common scum tactic by Red. The only I'm not voting him is that I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt on being busy.

He's contributed a few reads in his few posts. He's shaded Scare a couple of times, said Corrik is town (for reasons he wants to keep to himself, which is annoying but some players love that "I know something but will never say it" routine), didn't like SBell's response to Corrik not Gladiator'ing anybody. I feel like most of his posts have at least been putting some sort of opinion out there, so even with some that are just kind of posting to post I don't think he's just going pure lurk only post vague theory/fluff to look like he's paying attention mode.
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That's the issue I'm struggling with. I initially thought that was the reason for Scare picking me. I felt that he was using the soft touch reasoning because the only people I remember being active at the time where death, Corrik and I. He wasn't going to go after Corrik because it was really obvious but going after me is easier. I guess I keep making the mistake of trying to look at scum players as individuals instead of as a group. I've literally never rolled scum in any game I've played so it's hard for me to not look at everyone as a stand alone player at the start of the game. I can't think of any other reason why Scare would be pushing me as scum.
Scum reads
Ulti
Scare
Death
Han

5tar, vote ulti if you think he's scum

At this point I feel like voting Ulti reveals the most about this group and I feel Corrik and puns have been two of my stronger town reads.
Panth/Pez what are your thoughts on Ulti? Do you really believe that he rolled his favourite flavour 2 games in a row?

##Vote: Ulti

turbopuns3 posted...

turbopuns3 posted...

If Ulti is scum I think SBell is scum.

I should say, if Ulti is scum I think SBell could still be scum, but not that it's a 100% surefire thing. I'm just saying I don't think Ulti's attacks on SBell so far this game are outside the realm of bussing.

I feel like Ulti's attack on SBell, if Ulti is Scum, is predicated on me going after SBell. I think a ScumUlti only joins me on that if SBell is Town.
---

Also 5tar I literally gave reasoning for why I thought you were Scummy so quit lying about shit.
---

I can see getting caught up in a read and only later realizing it was dependent on something else you're now not sure about...hmm. Not sure whether to buy it or not yet.

5tarscream posted...

At this point I feel like voting Ulti reveals the most about this group and I feel Corrik and puns have been two of my stronger town reads.
Panth/Pez what are your thoughts on Ulti? Do you really believe that he rolled his favourite flavour 2 games in a row?

Not really but maybe? I don't want to base anything on what flavour name he claimed, that way lies madness. Especially when Ulti is involved. And using the "2 games in a row" argument is flawed, he did get a flavour he loved last game and that's that. The odds of him getting one he loves in this game are the same regardless of what happened in the last game.

Based on his actual content, I'm a bit unsure. I don't like that he made a point of talking about sheeping Han early on to vote SBell, but later focused more on him being able to read SBell well in general. Corrik made a good argument for why a scum Ulti might dare him to use the Gladiator on him, but I can still see town Ulti doing it. He talked about it confirming Corrik because he considers Mafia Gladiator to be stupid and would write off the game as town being fucked by the host if it exists. Anyone with more Ulti experience know if this is a line of thought he uses as town? I know I've seen someone saying stuff like "if X role exists the game was a write off anyway" before but I can't remember if it was Ulti or not. I like the effort he put into his activity attack on Puns even if his conclusion is one I very much disagree with.

More than anything I'm waiting on his explanation for why he sees Death so differently than I do here.
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turbopuns3 posted...

UltimaterializerX posted...

Kill this man with FIRE on day 2 after we kill Stu today

Chill. I was equally (in)active last day 1, too. You probably didn't notice because you were scum.

This implies Ulti is not scum this game because he did notice. But now you're calling him scum! Why did you think he was town before?
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head hurts, can't so much with all the words, is there anything happening that can't wait until tomorrow for me to respond to?
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MZero11 posted...

This implies Ulti is not scum this game because he did notice. But now you're calling him scum! Why did you think he was town before?

Actually it doesn't imply that. Logic fail.

But nonetheless, I didn't necessarily decide he was town I just wasn't reading him as scum either. There's no specific reason I can point to for why I didn't think he was scum before.

It kind of does because if he's scum again he shouldn't have noticed this time either. But anyway you went from no read on him to scum awfully quick.

Panthera posted...

That said I don't get the case on Ulti, how is that mixing up his suspicion between games (is this even a thing that happens?) when he's using the fact that you went to sleep to explain why you didn't post for a while to try to show you were only lower on activity last game when you were busy, unlike this game in his mind? That doesn't really add up to me.

Could you respond to this puns? I agree with it and I feel like your base for switching your read on Ulti to scum is flawed
---

Holy shit. I thought for sure I had posted in this topic already. I see we are lynching Ulti, I am ok with that as well.

##Unvote
##Vote:Ulti
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MZero11 posted...

It kind of does because if he's scum again he shouldn't have noticed this time either.

No, it does not. See you're using the implication itself to justify why the implication exists, which it doesn't.

But anyway.

I explained it already but I'll try again.

Hypothetical scenario:

> Town Ulti
> notices Puns is inactive
> believes Puns being inactive = Puns is scum
> Puns states he was equally active last game as town
> Ulti, decides to research last game
> during research, mindset should be "puns is 100% town here, certifiably proven, not up for debate or scrutiny. Let's see what his activity was like"
> why then, does he feel the need to clarify that he "accepts" my stated reasoning for being inactive for a couple pages?

There is no question, or relevance, to whether he "accepts" it. He must accept it. It's history. It is fact.

When he was writing up his notes/summary here in this game, he fell back into his scum mindset of "I'm building a case against Puns, but I can't go whole hog, I need to show some degree of authentic doubt of myself"

But his doubt came through in a context that has no logical reason to be doubted. He flubbed his faux authenticity.

turbopuns3 posted...

There is no question, or relevance, to whether he "accepts" it. He must accept it. It's history. It is fact.

When he was writing up his notes/summary here in this game, he fell back into his scum mindset of "I'm building a case against Puns, but I can't go whole hog, I need to show some degree of authentic doubt of myself"

But his doubt came through in a context that has no logical reason to be doubted. He flubbed his faux authenticity.

He was trying to prove a point that you were more active last game than in this one, so of course he felt the need to justify your absence for that stretch of time. You said you were just as inactive last game, and he's trying to explain while your activity level was acceptable last game and unacceptable this game. This clearly fits into what he was arguing from the start
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5tarscream posted...

At this point I feel like voting Ulti reveals the most about this group and I feel Corrik and puns have been two of my stronger town reads.
Panth/Pez what are your thoughts on Ulti? Do you really believe that he rolled his favourite flavour 2 games in a row?

I think his claim was bad for town. If he's scum he's trying to lie to us. If he's town he claimed, and that's bad D1 as I said.

But doing something bad for town doesn't make you scum. I'm not voting for him today. But I certainly understand why a person would.

As for rolling your favorite flavor two games in a row, speaking as a math professor, I've seen weirder statistical things happen. turbopuns3 posted...

MZero11 posted...

It kind of does because if he's scum again he shouldn't have noticed this time either.

No, it does not. See you're using the implication itself to justify why the implication exists, which it doesn't.

But anyway.

I explained it already but I'll try again.

Hypothetical scenario:

> Town Ulti
> notices Puns is inactive
> believes Puns being inactive = Puns is scum
> Puns states he was equally active last game as town
> Ulti, decides to research last game
> during research, mindset should be "puns is 100% town here, certifiably proven, not up for debate or scrutiny. Let's see what his activity was like"
> why then, does he feel the need to clarify that he "accepts" my stated reasoning for being inactive for a couple pages?

There is no question, or relevance, to whether he "accepts" it. He must accept it. It's history. It is fact.

When he was writing up his notes/summary here in this game, he fell back into his scum mindset of "I'm building a case against Puns, but I can't go whole hog, I need to show some degree of authentic doubt of myself"

But his doubt came through in a context that has no logical reason to be doubted. He flubbed his faux authenticity.

He has to accept you were town. He doesn't not have to accept your stated reason in a mafia game just because you were town in that game. Town lies too.
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Tom Bombadil posted...

head hurts, can't so much with all the words, is there anything happening that can't wait until tomorrow for me to respond to?

I feel this, I do. But this is another flag for me here. Town Tom contributes more I think.

I unvoted you because of the Corrik thing. I'm seriously wondering if it was something you saw because you were looking to fish for his role and not looking to trap him.
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Votals
Sbell(4): han, (scare), Ulti, Tom, (IGCD), Puns
Ulit(3): eaed, Corrik,IGCD
5tar(2): Scare, SBell
Tom(1): (Puns), (igcd), (Pez), Red
Death(1): (Corrik), Panth
NoLynch(0): (Tom), (Tom), (Pez)
Pez(0): (IGCD)
Han(0): (Corrik), (Sbell)
mzero(0): (Tom) (Corrik)
Corrik(0): (Ulti)
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MZero11 posted...

He was trying to prove a point that you were more active last game than in this one, so of course he felt the need to justify your absence for that stretch of time. You said you were just as inactive last game, and he's trying to explain while your activity level was acceptable last game and unacceptable this game. This clearly fits into what he was arguing from the start

I disagree entirely but that's OK.

I also followed up the vote with multiple other points, btw. Any comment on those?

Sultan you missed my vote switch in post 51

turbopuns3 posted...

Nevermind the fact that several of the reads Ulti has provided in this game have been based on MYSTERY TELLS which he doesn't elaborate about. And several more are all in reference to last game.

And I actually don't buy him just sheeping Han so...easily, as he did here to vote SBell. Paired with the ultimatum language he used about SBell "nothing he can say will change my mind".

He's just scum.

I agree Ulti's reads have been lackluster, although revealing a tell is often a bad idea because then they can change it. Also he seems inconsistent about whether he reads SBell like a book or is trusting Hangut. I'm not entirely sure which it is.

I don't feel great about Ulti either honestly
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MZero11 posted...

Also he seems inconsistent about whether he reads SBell like a book or is trusting Hangut. I'm not entirely sure which it is.

Does it have to be one or the other?

That post was 2 rather wishy washy statements for you to just say ulti was scummy.

@Leafeon13N have you shared your thoughts on Ulti?
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Leafeon13N posted...

MZero11 posted...

Also he seems inconsistent about whether he reads SBell like a book or is trusting Hangut. I'm not entirely sure which it is.

Does it have to be one or the other?

That post was 2 rather wishy washy statements for you to just say ulti was scummy.

No but it seems at times he is relying on one or the other
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I am around but have nothing to say
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