Current Events > *literally has controls listed onscreen during gameplay*

(+) Yeah! (+)

*literally has an item button, listed onscreen*
*watches playtester after playtester slowly take damage until they game over without ever touching the item button*

:|
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your mistake was thinking anyone wants to read
needs better visual indicators without getting intrusive
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If multiple people are missing it then the people aren't the issue tbqh
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eston posted...

If multiple people are missing it then the people aren't the issue tbqh

Yeah I know.

I just don't know what to do about it.
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DevsBro posted...

eston posted...

If multiple people are missing it then the people aren't the issue tbqh

Yeah I know.

I just don't know what to do about it.

Have a tutorial sprite interrupt the gameplay and force them to press the item button as an ingame tutorial
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philsov posted...

DevsBro posted...

eston posted...

If multiple people are missing it then the people aren't the issue tbqh

Yeah I know.

I just don't know what to do about it.

Have a tutorial sprite interrupt the gameplay and force them to press the item button as an ingame tutorial

This is what I'm trying to avoid.

So far it's not working at all. ._.
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Alright how about this

All the playtesters have been able to figure out how to walk around, and most have figured out they can talk to the NPC.

Maybe the NPC gives you a repair kit. Now the player is at least aware that items are a thing and that one of them is called a repair kit. Maybe that will inspire them to ask how they use one when they start to take damage.
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Have the item button icon flash on screen when health is low maybe?

ocelot51 posted...

Have the item button icon flash on screen when health is low maybe?

Good thought.
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What kind of game is it?

Another thing to do is to maybe make early game enemies really weak, which widens the window of ppportunity to heal.

In FF7 you have to actively try to die in the opening sequence, so youll have plenty of time to worry about health.

Indicating that health is in a danger zone is also something that a lot of games do. Maybe change certain text from yellow to orange to red at different percentages of health to catch their attention.

Tbh its kinda weird how much is expected of game design these days. Back in mah day we had to read the instruction manual, uphill, both ways, if we wanted to know how the game worked. And sometimes not even then! (Seriously, What does the ring do in dragon warrior?)

Whippersnappers today probably wouldnt even know Mario can jump without a tutorial level. *grumble grumble*
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Sometimes you have folks like me that are generally too proud or can't be bothered to use items unless forced. Gamer idiosyncrasies.
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DevsBro posted...

Alright how about this

All the playtesters have been able to figure out how to walk around, and most have figured out they can talk to the NPC.

Maybe the NPC gives you a repair kit. Now the player is at least aware that items are a thing and that one of them is called a repair kit. Maybe that will inspire them to ask how they use one when they start to take damage.

Maybe have them take a significant amount of damage intentionally where they can't help but notice their health is low, then have the NPC give them the item and tell them to use it.
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If I've learned anything from Twitch becoming so popular, it's that almost everyone who plays a video game doesn't read anything. There isn't really anything you can do.
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Have an on screen prompt that says "You can use items with the X button. But if you do, youre a pussy-ass bitch"
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I know making games is hard as fuck and it's super easy to sit on the gamer side of the fence and say "just do this", but I always respond well to two things:

- Tactile feedback, or at least some kind of obvious input response, maybe visual. If pressing the button just quietly makes my stats go up but there's no clear feedback to show the change, I'll probably forget it's there. A lot of games handle this by making something flash and providing a noise to go with. Maybe the screen slightly shakes, or your character glows.

- Tutorials that encourage you to use the new functionality in order to progress. The absolute perfect example of this was Breath of the Wild. You could clearly see what you had to do, and you were just recently introduced with a new mechanic that is what they're telling you to use. In fact, all the zelda games are great at this.

I think eston's suggestion is good. Low health is a hamper to progressing further but fortunately, you just received a health kit. Now figure out how to use it.
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AlisLandale posted...

What kind of game is it?

Another thing to do is to maybe make early game enemies really weak, which widens the window of ppportunity to heal.

In FF7 you have to actively try to die in the opening sequence, so youll have plenty of time to worry about health.

Indicating that health is in a danger zone is also something that a lot of games do. Maybe change certain text from yellow to orange to red at different percentages of health to catch their attention.

Tbh its kinda weird how much is expected of game design these days. Back in mah day we had to read the instruction manual, uphill, both ways, if we wanted to know how the game worked. And sometimes not even then! (Seriously, What does the ring do in dragon warrior?)

Whippersnappers today probably wouldnt even know Mario can jump without a tutorial level. *grumble grumble*

J(inspired?)RPG.

And yeah, your health turns red when it's low.

But also I need a better way to relate the player characters to their respective health bars. It's got Phantasy Star perspective with FF health bars, which I'm finding doesn't work at all for players to figure out which character goes with which health, even though it highlights the health bar when it's said character's turn. It just needs to be restructured entirely.

I wouldn't have expected it to be a problem since 3D JRPGs move the camera all over the place and its not a problem. But I guess also they introduce player characters one at a time while this is more of a dev sandbox with multiples all at once to test it all out. So maybe that will be alleviated some as development progresses.

Phantasy Star perspective with Phantasy Star health bars would work but it's too much Phantasy Star, lol.
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fenderbender321 posted...

The players are never wrong. If they aren't seeing that they can do something, then the makers didn't do a good job if making it obvious enough for people to figure out. You can point out "hey it's right there", but the reality is that there is a reason they aren't using it and the makers need to figure that out and solve it.

Yep, exactly.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC4F6ctEO4g" data-time="
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DevsBro posted...

Maybe the NPC gives you a repair kit.

i like this. maybe include some dialog like "Hey LISTEN! You can use items with <ITEM BUTTON>"
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The best tutorial stage is the first level of Mega Man X.
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Just put in a tutorial, this is exactly why they exist.
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philsov posted...

DevsBro posted...

eston posted...

If multiple people are missing it then the people aren't the issue tbqh

Yeah I know.

I just don't know what to do about it.

Have a tutorial sprite interrupt the gameplay and force them to press the item button as an ingame tutorial

Fuck no that's the fastest way to get me to turn off a game
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what game engine are you using?
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After playing through Portal with the commentary bubbles on and listening to the troubles playtesters had, I'm convinced that there is a farm somewhere that breeds brain dead, inbred primate babies to serve as playtesters for game developers. Holy shit these people are stupid.
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For a sec I thought you were talking about Arin from Game Grumps.

Fucker's notorious for stuff like that.
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I am reminded of the frequent "how to Blitz" and noob bridge topics that used to pop up on the FFVI and Super Metroid boards.
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Id be interested in play testing, if you need more input. I used to run the fan games section of a gaming website so I have a lot of experience with this.
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eston posted...

If multiple people are missing it then the people aren't the issue tbqh

Truth. As a UX designer it's very frustrating sometimes but I nonetheless recognize that it's my responsibility to make sure the user understands how to use it. If too many users are struggling, it's on me to make it clearer to them, or reassess the feasibility of what I'm trying to implement.
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One thing I haven't seen noticed yet is to introduce a mechanic in a low pressure situation, then kind of anchoring its use in a higher pressure situation soon after. Visual clues are nice, and there are probably plenty of design patterns you could find. It might just be that your GUI isn't communicating as well as it should.
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Let me play it!
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Ever watch Game Grumps? Some people need the help

*Goes in circles ignoring hints and prompts*

"HELP WHAT DO I DO"

*10 minutes later*

"THIS GAME SUCKS"

Wetterdew posted...

eston posted...

If multiple people are missing it then the people aren't the issue tbqh

Truth. As a UX designer it's very frustrating sometimes but I nonetheless recognize that it's my responsibility to make sure the user understands how to use it. If too many users are struggling, it's on me to make it clearer to them, or reassess the feasibility of what I'm trying to implement.

But people are fucking idiots though. At what point do you stop coddling morons and accept you did all you can?
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dave_is_slick posted...

But people are fucking idiots though. At what point do you stop coddling morons and accept you did all you can?

When the number of people having problems with your app are in the vast minority.

If too many people are struggling, then it's your responsibility to fix it or ditch the feature. It's always on the designer to make things clear. If a bunch of people are messing up, you can't just go "well people are dumb," it's still your responsibility to fix the problem.
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So they test from the start of the game or have a long time with it?

I notice when I play games in conventions I'm way dumber compared to how I play at home. No idea if it's the same in a testing environment.
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BLAKUboy posted...

Just put in a tutorial, this is exactly why they exist.

But the best tutorials are incognito.
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solosnake posted...

what game engine are you using?

My own. It uses a few SDL libraries and nanosvg but otherwise all the code is mine.
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scar the 1 posted...

introduce a mechanic in a low pressure situation, then kind of anchoring its use in a higher pressure situation soon after.

Love Fromsoft for consistently doing this.
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Why you gotta call out Arin from the GameGrumps so directly?

It's hard, man! Next you might as well just bitch about people not knowing where to go, after ignoring the prompt that tells them where to go.
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DevsBro posted...

BLAKUboy posted...

Just put in a tutorial, this is exactly why they exist.

But the best tutorials are incognito.

Nope. Then you end with "wait you mean I could do this".
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dave_is_slick posted...

DevsBro posted...

BLAKUboy posted...

Just put in a tutorial, this is exactly why they exist.

But the best tutorials are incognito.

Nope. Then you end with "wait you mean I could do this".

The best ones don't end that way. Obviously it's easier with a simpler game.
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I think Super Mario Bros and Super Metroid represent the best possible tutorial a game can have. But not all games can have it like that.
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dave_is_slick posted...

But people are fucking idiots though. At what point do you stop coddling morons and accept you did all you can?

The point where you don't care about those people using your application. And since it's very easy to be home blind, the feedback of "morons" is often really valuable.
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You're developing a sort of jRPG? That's cool. Did you already get the plot kinda figured out? I've been having some character ideas storming in my brain for a while now. They're basic outlines but I don't even have their names atm.
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Banjo2553 posted...

You're developing a sort of jRPG? That's cool. Did you already get the plot kinda figured out? I've been having some character ideas storming in my brain for a while now. They're basic outlines but I don't even have their names atm.

More or less. Still working on the details but the overall structure and the ending are decided upon, plus the major characters and a number of major events. Lots of stuff about the world too.

It takes place in a world populated only by robots, where the first "V1" specification has been retired and the V2 is obsolete. The world is populated mostly by V3 and V4 divided by resource contention into West and East.

But, for unknown reasons, a new V1 rolls off the assembly line with the defined purpose "determine the fate of the world." His name is 53.

And yes, I changed my sig like two years ago for that reason. I had hoped more people would ask.
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DevsBro posted...

Banjo2553 posted...

You're developing a sort of jRPG? That's cool. Did you already get the plot kinda figured out? I've been having some character ideas storming in my brain for a while now. They're basic outlines but I don't even have their names atm.

More or less. Still working on the details but the overall structure and the ending are decided upon, plus the major characters and a number of major events. Lots of stuff about the world too.

It takes place in a world populated only by robots, where the first "V1" specification has been retired and the V2 is obsolete. The world is populated mostly by V3 and V4 divided by resource contention into West and East.

But, for unknown reasons, a new V1 rolls off the assembly line with the defined purpose "determine the fate of the world." His name is 53.

And yes, I changed my sig like two years ago for that reason. I had hoped more people would ask.

That's a pretty interesting premise.
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Devs, what was your pitching process? Any tips for newcomers in the industry?
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Hey Devs, there's a dormant Gamedev and programming board just dying for activity. Have you been there? I don't remember. There's also a community board about indie game dev, with a discord channel. If you wanna bounce ideas I think those places would drink it up gingerly.
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scar the 1 posted...

Hey Devs, there's a dormant Gamedev and programming board just dying for activity. Have you been there? I don't remember. There's also a community board about indie game dev, with a discord channel. If you wanna bounce ideas I think those places would drink it up gingerly.

I have but it's been a while. I thought the place was totally dead. Thanks for the tip.

LightningAce11 posted...

Devs, what was your pitching process? Any tips for newcomers in the industry?

I'm funding it myself so I've never had to pitch it. If you mean on the marketing end, the best (sounding) advice I've heard is "if it's an entertainment product, your marketing should be entertaining."

I guess my advice would be just get started. I worried forever about how I'm awful at all things graphical and visual but in the informarion age, it's easy to find tutorials and other resources or straight-up a forum where people will literally teach you techniques for no charge.

My second advice would be to overthink the crap out of everything. When I designed the element system, I had a gigantic spreadsheet filled with tables comparing the advantages and disadvantsges of every element against ever pair of elements (counting none as an element), with increasing number of elements from 1 to 7 and several different weakness structures, for example, how is the strategy effected if every elemental weakness works both ways, what if elements are weak against themselves, what if every element has two weaknesses, what if one of those weaknessed is twice as effective as the other, what if elements opposite each other in the weakness chain are weak to each other, etc etc.

I was so glad I did. The system I decided on is a thing of beauty. Red beats Orange and Yellow, Orange beats Yellow and Green, Yellow beats Green and Blue, Green beats Blue and Purple, Blue beats Purple and Red, Purple beats Red and Orange. Each of those elements has some advantage too, like having a chance of putting the enemy into a negative status or getting a small damage bonus.

It's fairly easy to learn and remember because of its simplicity, but it also tons of strategy and player preference built in. For example, an early dungeon is filled with Red and Orange enemies, so it's kind of a no-brainer to use Purple. A mid-game dungeon has Yellow and Blue. Now the the player can choose between Yellow because it beats Blue, or Orange because it beats Yellow, based on which side effect they like more or which enemy element has the side effect they like less. Then an endgame dungeon has Red and Green, in which case it's a pure risk/reward deal as Red and Green have no strengths or weaknesses while the other elements each have one strength and one weakness, then from there they always have at least two choices of element. For example, if you choose not to risk, you can still pick from Red or Green, but if you choose to risk it, you can choose from any of the others. The player can even put each character on a separate element if they want to.

I love that it lets me expand the strategy as the game progresses without straight up locking out mechanics in the early game.

Banjo2553 posted...

That's a pretty interesting premise.

Thanks!
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