Current Events > I'm not anti-semitic and I don't support Israel's 'right to exist'

(+) Yeah! (+)

How the hell can a state/nation/political entity have the "right" to exist? That sounds like some imperialism bullshit
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That's Liberals for you

NeverOffended posted...

That's Liberals for you

...its conservatives who say israel has a right to exist
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but everyone has the right to exist
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Every country has a right to exist until conquered by a stronger force.
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They're carrying out apartheid, which is totally wrong and we should not be supporting it with financial aid and selling them military technology, but nor should they be eradicated from earth either - their civilians absolutely do have the right to exist!

ArchiePeck posted...

They're carrying out apartheid, which is totally wrong and we should not be supporting it with financial aid and selling them military technology, but nor should they be eradicated from earth either - their civilians absolutely do have the right to exist!

Their civilians have every right to exist, but their country does not
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They've got as much a right to exist as Nazi Germany, the Roman Empire, or Soviet Russia did. Zionists love to guilt trip anyone who doesn't buy into their propaganda

I get modded every time I give my honest thoughts on this topic
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Some Jews conquered some land and made it into a country.

Nothing that hasnt been done before or since.
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I don't support Israel and I'm not anti-semitic.
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So, we should give North America back to the Native Americans?

NeverOffended posted...

That's Liberals for you

This is one of the best or one of the worst posts Ive seen in a while and I dont know which.
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Skye Reynolds posted...

So, we should give North America back to the Native Americans?

Cause the survival of non indigenous people in North America is reliant on outside support?
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You can thank the Nazis for Israel
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Skye Reynolds posted...

So, we should give North America back to the Native Americans?

Uh what?
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Unsugarized_Foo posted...

You can thank the Nazis for Israel

Often said, but inaccurate.
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Firewerx posted...

Unsugarized_Foo posted...

You can thank the Nazis for Israel

Often said, but inaccurate.

Everyone I disagree with a Nazi tho, so it's fine
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babyeatermax posted...

Skye Reynolds posted...

So, we should give North America back to the Native Americans?

Uh what?

If Israel was stolen from Palestine and should not exist, then that same logic applies to the US.

A bunch of people believe archaic fairytales that say that specific land is theirs, thinking that is dumb is not antisemitic especially considering the 2 main groups fighting over it are both semitic...
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Disney just needs to take it over
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Paragon21XX posted...

Every country has a right to exist until conquered by a stronger force.

Here's the thing about uncritical supporters of the Zionist position, though. With one move, they'll play the "Right of Conquest" card: insisting that Israel has fully won the right to its territory through force of arms. Then from the bottom of the deck, they'll suddenly pull the "Right of Conquered Nations" card: insisting that Jews always retained a rightful claim to a state there despite the Jewish kingdoms having been conquered over two thousand years ago.

So it seems that for Zionists, there's such a thing as a "right of conquest" when it's convenient for Israel's interests, yet there's no such thing as a "right of conquest" if it's seen to work against Jewish nationalism. Come on guys, enough of the doublethink.
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Firewerx posted...

Paragon21XX posted...

Every country has a right to exist until conquered by a stronger force.

Here's the thing about uncritical supporters of the Zionist position, though. With one move, they'll play the "Right of Conquest" card: insisting that Israel has fully won the right to its territory through force of arms. Then from the bottom of the deck, they'll suddenly pull the "Right of Conquered Nations" card: insisting that Jews always retained a rightful claim to a state there despite the Jewish kingdoms having been conquered over two thousand years ago.

So it seems that for Zionists, there's such a thing as a "right of conquest" when it's convenient for Israel's interests, yet there's no such thing as a "right of conquest" if it's seen to work against Jewish nationalism. Come on guys, enough of the doublethink.

You accuse us of doublethink? Need I remind you of many of the posts in this topic ("I'm not antisemitic but I hate Zionists, and their illegitimate nation should be eradicated")?
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What's wrong with the Jewish people having a sliver of land to call their own? They had been in diaspora for almost 2000 years before modern Israel was created.
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Damn_Underscore posted...

What's wrong with the Jewish people having a sliver of land to call their own? They had been in diaspora for almost 2000 years before modern Israel was created.

generally the part where they are shooting medics and committing apartheid.
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Doublethink is low iq. Y'all need to get on my level and octuplethink tbh
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Palestine is not a real country
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Damn_Underscore posted...

What's wrong with the Jewish people having a sliver of land to call their own? They had been in diaspora for almost 2000 years before modern Israel was created.

Can think of a lot groups that have it had just as bad or worse yet they ain't getting their own country and billions in continued reparations

there is no way of accurately debating this without discussing both sides of WW2. As such you cannot get to the bottom of this topic on gamefaqs because you need actual free speech to do so.

Question: should the Romani people of Europe be allowed to form their own state in already inhabited lands of India just because their ancestors were originally from there, like 1000+ years ago?
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Paragon21XX posted...

Firewerx posted...

Paragon21XX posted...

Every country has a right to exist until conquered by a stronger force.

Here's the thing about uncritical supporters of the Zionist position, though. With one move, they'll play the "Right of Conquest" card: insisting that Israel has fully won the right to its territory through force of arms. Then from the bottom of the deck, they'll suddenly pull the "Right of Conquered Nations" card: insisting that Jews always retained a rightful claim to a state there despite the Jewish kingdoms having been conquered over two thousand years ago.

So it seems that for Zionists, there's such a thing as a "right of conquest" when it's convenient for Israel's interests, yet there's no such thing as a "right of conquest" if it's seen to work against Jewish nationalism. Come on guys, enough of the doublethink.

You accuse us of doublethink? Need I remind you of many of the posts in this topic ("I'm not antisemitic but I hate Zionists, and their illegitimate nation should be eradicated")?

Yes, I'm accusing Zionists of doublethink when they adopt mutually contradictory positions and emphasize whichever one is the more convenient for their argument depending on the circumstances. You can't have it both ways. If the Palestinian claim to statehood is illegitimate because whatever Israel wins, Israel has the right to keep and the losers should suck it up and resign themselves to defeat, then Zionist dreamers were wrong to insist that Jews should continue to fight for their inalienable and eternal right to a state that they lost thousands of years ago.

The right of Israeli Jews to live in the state of Israel -- and Israel has to be dealt with as an established fact -- has nothing whatsoever to do with Jewish kingdoms having once existed there three thousand years ago. We can't start redrawing modern maps on the basis of who once lived where a couple of millennia in the past. The descendants of the Lombards in today's northern Italy have no "right" to reclaim their 4th century ancestral lands in eastern Germany and demand their own state there. Northumbria, Yorkshire and East Anglia in England do not rightfully belong to the Danes. The plantation of Ulster and the dispossession of the Catholic Irish wasn't justified because Protestant lowland Scots settlers were descended from the original Ulaid who'd migrated across the Irish Sea a thousand years before. No, Israeli Jews have the right to live in the state of Israel because, quite simply, generations of Israeli Jews have been born there since its establishment and thus there is nowhere for them to "return" to. Let's just not have any more tragic population upheavals, on either side.

But that doesn't mean "whatever Israel wants, Israel should get". And it doesn't mean that Palestinian opposition to the Zionist colonization project during the Mandate was any less legitimate than indigenous resistance against other European colonial-settler movements in Africa and Asia at the time, like the French pieds noir in Algeria or the white British settlers in Southern Rhodesia. We need to put the history behind us, but that doesn't mean denying it.
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Let's say Isreal right to exist is revoked.

What then? Now it is palestine.

What happens to the Isrealis?

Does it just reverse and Palestine had a right to exist and Isrealis take their place as 2nd class citizen?
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darkphoenix181 posted...

Let's say Isreal right to exist is revoked.

What then? Now it is palestine.

What happens to the Isrealis?

Does it just reverse and Palestine had a right to exist and Isrealis take their place as 2nd class citizen?

personally, I am of the opinion that the colonized people should decide whether or not the colonizers can stay, what happens with the land, etc.
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averagejoel posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

Let's say Isreal right to exist is revoked.

What then? Now it is palestine.

What happens to the Isrealis?

Does it just reverse and Palestine had a right to exist and Isrealis take their place as 2nd class citizen?

personally, I am of the opinion that the colonized people should decide whether or not the colonizers can stay, what happens with the land, etc.

this logic makes 0 sense.

When the ottoman empire collapsed the following countries were formed from its remains: Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia.

Why is it of those you only take issue with Israel?
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s0nicfan posted...

When the ottoman empire collapsed the following countries were formed from its remains: Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia.

Why is it of those you only take issue with Israel?

I don't think anyone takes issue with any of those countries on the basis of their being formed from the remains of the ottman empire
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averagejoel posted...

s0nicfan posted...

When the ottoman empire collapsed the following countries were formed from its remains: Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia.

Why is it of those you only take issue with Israel?

I don't think anyone takes issue with any of those countries on the basis of their being formed from the remains of the ottman empire

Right, so why Israel? Independent of what you think of their current government's practices, the boundaries that form them are no less legitimate than any of those other countries.
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Unsugarized_Foo posted...

You can thank the Nazis for Israel

No thank a much higher power.

s0nicfan posted...

averagejoel posted...

s0nicfan posted...

When the ottoman empire collapsed the following countries were formed from its remains: Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia.

Why is it of those you only take issue with Israel?

I don't think anyone takes issue with any of those countries on the basis of their being formed from the remains of the ottman empire

Right, so why Israel? Independent of what you think of their current government's practices, the boundaries that form them are no less legitimate than any of those other countries.

how many of those other countries are, as concepts, ethnostates? how many of them are, in practice, apartheid states?
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averagejoel posted...

s0nicfan posted...

averagejoel posted...

s0nicfan posted...

When the ottoman empire collapsed the following countries were formed from its remains: Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia.

Why is it of those you only take issue with Israel?

I don't think anyone takes issue with any of those countries on the basis of their being formed from the remains of the ottman empire

Right, so why Israel? Independent of what you think of their current government's practices, the boundaries that form them are no less legitimate than any of those other countries.

how many of those other countries are, as concepts, ethnostates? how many of them are, in practice, apartheid states?

All of them except Israel, since of them Israel is the only one that confers equal rights to both Muslim and Jewish citizens.

But you've established many times before that even though a full 21% of Israel's citizenry is Arab Muslim, that you will continue to call it an ethnostate.
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s0nicfan posted...

averagejoel posted...

s0nicfan posted...

averagejoel posted...

s0nicfan posted...

When the ottoman empire collapsed the following countries were formed from its remains: Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia.

Why is it of those you only take issue with Israel?

I don't think anyone takes issue with any of those countries on the basis of their being formed from the remains of the ottman empire

Right, so why Israel? Independent of what you think of their current government's practices, the boundaries that form them are no less legitimate than any of those other countries.

how many of those other countries are, as concepts, ethnostates? how many of them are, in practice, apartheid states?

All of them except Israel, since of them Israel is the only one that confers equal rights to both Muslim and Jewish citizens.

But you've established many times before that even though a full 21% of Israel's citizenry is Arab Muslim, that you will continue to call it an ethnostate.

I think most Palestinians disagree with your assessment
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averagejoel posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

Let's say Isreal right to exist is revoked.

What then? Now it is palestine.

What happens to the Isrealis?

Does it just reverse and Palestine had a right to exist and Isrealis take their place as 2nd class citizen?

personally, I am of the opinion that the colonized people should decide whether or not the colonizers can stay, what happens with the land, etc.

Who do you count as native?

Canannites?

Everyone else comes from conquest.

Arabs conquered it in 600 or so a.d.

Then egypt.

Then turks. Etc.etc.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

averagejoel posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

Let's say Isreal right to exist is revoked.

What then? Now it is palestine.

What happens to the Isrealis?

Does it just reverse and Palestine had a right to exist and Isrealis take their place as 2nd class citizen?

personally, I am of the opinion that the colonized people should decide whether or not the colonizers can stay, what happens with the land, etc.

Who do you count as native?

Canannites?

Everyone else comes from conquest.

Arabs conquered it in 600 or so a.d.

Then egypt.

Then turks. Etc.etc.

I don't care about what counts as native, which is why I said "colonized people" instead
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