Current Events > Why is it so hard to do Sonic well?

(+) Yeah! (+)

When was the last time you actually liked Sonic?
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I've always liked Sonic.

Sonic's problem is that while he is about speed, precision matters more than speed. In a 3d environment, this makes him particularly difficult. Furthermore since every formula Sonic has had has basically fractured the fanbase further, there is now no general consensus on which is the best version of Sonic. Almost everyone agrees the retro 2d Sonic is good, but some people like boost, some people like adventure, some people like rush.

I think Colors and Generations basically had it best. Mix that in with some Adventure like playstyles, and you have what is Sonic's best modern iteration. Continue in the meantime to make retro Sonic games.
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There has never been a good Sonic game so you probably can't.
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The problem is people took one tiny aspect of Sonic (speed) which was more about marketing the console hardware than it was a core part of the gameplay, and decided that it was going to be the most important part of Sonic. The old platformers had speed in spurts, but that became more and more suicidal as the stages went on. This weird emphasis on speed above all else has crippled the series' design and made in nearly impossible to make a good game from it.
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Because the game makers can't wrap their heads around 3D platforming in ways that don't involve bottomless pits over everything for every missed jump. A great deal of the games also are just roller coasters with around half of every level just being you grinding on rails and only jumping left to right to change the rail you're grinding on.

It's a crappy platformer where half the level is on autopilot and for the parts that aren't if you miss a jump you're instantly dead and have to start back from a checkpoint.

Ironically, Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric had some good ideas for level design but those ideas were never really finished and the game is so buggy it's virtually unplayable.
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When I was a kid with one of those classic collections on OG Xbox. I think a lot of the classic games hold up well even today (definitely not all of them).

The 3D ones suck.
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&All-Stars Racing Transformed. Before that, Generations.

Also the first time I liked Sonic was Adventure.

The first Sonic game was an absolute train wreck and the second was better but still had problems.
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because he arrives too fast
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I hope Sonic Mania has set a new standard for SEGA to base their new Sonic games on.

I'm pretty sure it hasn't.

Superlinkbro posted...

When I was a kid with one of those classic collections on OG Xbox. I think a lot of the classic games hold up well even today (definitely not all of them).

The 3D ones suck.

Sonic 1 is honestly kind of lousy. Sonic 2 is way better, Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles are probably the best.

Also Sonic CD is pretty good, too.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl2ZVEjYBJk" data-time="

i really like this one.

they really should make everything bigger to accommodate the speed without being on-rails which also gives way to platforming opportunities without feeling restricted by forcing you to go slow and killing the pace.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Sonic 1 is honestly kind of lousy. Sonic 2 is way better, Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles are probably the best.

I agree. 1 isn't good. Green Hill is good but everything after sucks.
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YoshitoKikuchi posted...

When was the last time you actually liked Sonic?

Sonic Mania
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It depends on who is making and at what time. I hate when you ask for a Super Sonic with extra mayo and no pickles, and they put little to no extra mayo on and leave the pickles on. I send that shit right back if it has pickles on it.
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He has a cool character design but all of his games are mediocre
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Give us a Sonic Adventure 3 ffs.
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Zerocide posted...

Give us a Sonic Adventure 3 ffs.

They did. In 2006.
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I liked SA2.

Treasure hunting and Tails/Eggman levels werent too bad, but the glaring problem is theres only about 10 running levels between sonic and shadow and like 4 are fun.

There shouldve been more running levels.
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DirkDiggles posted...

It depends on who is making and at what time. I hate when you ask for a Super Sonic with extra mayo and no pickles, and they put little to no extra mayo on and leave the pickles on. I send that shit right back if it has pickles on it.

Sonic is the worst about special orders. I don't think I've ever ordered something without mayo and gotten it without mayo.
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DevsBro posted...

Zerocide posted...

Give us a Sonic Adventure 3 ffs.

They did. In 2006.

Nah that was a meme that shouldn't have happen.

My issue with the current games is it's about boosting through long corridors. Forces felt like there was some freedom restrictions.
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I'm curious how the movie is going to look.

Zerocide posted...

DevsBro posted...

Zerocide posted...

Give us a Sonic Adventure 3 ffs.

They did. In 2006.

Nah that was a meme that shouldn't have happen.

3D, hub overworld, multiple playables, what were you expecting in a Sonic Adventure 3 that Sonic 06 didn't have?
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DevsBro posted...

Zerocide posted...

DevsBro posted...

Zerocide posted...

Give us a Sonic Adventure 3 ffs.

They did. In 2006.

Nah that was a meme that shouldn't have happen.

3D, hub overworld, multiple playables, what were you expecting in a Sonic Adventure 3 that Sonic 06 didn't have?

If you want to get technical then a decent SA3 game.
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the problem with the 3d games is that sega keeps trying to find a way to adapt the 2d gameplay of sonic to a 3d world, & when that doesnt work they just shove in gimmicks.

inversely, nintendo completely re-imagined the mario franchise when translating it from 2d to 3d in Mario 64 and look how successful that was.
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Romulox28 posted...

the problem with the 3d games is that sega keeps trying to find a way to adapt the 2d gameplay of sonic to a 3d world, & when that doesnt work they just shove in gimmicks.

inversely, nintendo completely re-imagined the mario franchise when translating it from 2d to 3d in Mario 64 and look how successful that was.

Yeah they really need to stick with a formula. They shouldn't tried this in Forces, it was an welcome addition in generations but it should've ended there.
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ledbowman posted...

There has never been a good Sonic game so you probably can't.

Fact.
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DevsBro posted...

Zerocide posted...

Give us a Sonic Adventure 3 ffs.

They did. In 2006.

No they fucking didn't. Stop parroting this blatantly wrong meme created by Redditors.

Sonic 06 was never intended to be Sonic Adventure 3
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The thing that makes 2D Sonic good is level design that rewards exploration and a patient approach. You can go fast, but it won't necessarily be on your first run through the level.

This was basically lost in the transition to 3D; the upper and lower paths of levels were now just one. Which makes it feel very linear and less satisfying as a platformer.
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Tappor posted...

because he finishes too fast

Antifar posted...

This was basically lost in the transition to 3D; the upper and lower paths of levels were now just one. Which makes it feel very linear and less satisfying as a platformer.

They had it right with the Adventure games. It was just ruined with Unleashed and their garbage Boost gameplay
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Also worth mentioning is the story lines that they put so much effort into completely fall off the rails.really there's some truly God awful crap in these stories.

SA2 probably being the only good story line in a sonic game. The first four sonic games have a simple basic plot, not really a storyline exactly.

The endless barrage of terrible side characters deserve a mention too. I'd be happy with everyone but sonic, shadow, tails, knuckles and Eggman dying in a fire never to be seen or heard from again.

GrindcoreShark posted...

Antifar posted...

This was basically lost in the transition to 3D; the upper and lower paths of levels were now just one. Which makes it feel very linear and less satisfying as a platformer.

They had it right with the Adventure games. It was just ruined with Unleashed and their garbage Boost gameplay

You spend a lot of time either figuratively or literally on rails in the Adventure games though. Not to mention the camera is awful and the physics suffer from weird hiccups. I mean, they're not bad, don't get me wrong, but they're not great either.
I actually liked most of the Modern levels in Generations, because it felt like they finally managed to make Sonic somewhat maneuverable. That's one of the huge problems of the Modern formula in 3D: it's really hard to both have Sonic screaming around at the speed of sound and allowing the player to meaningfully control him.
The 2D games have much less of a problem with it in part because there's one less dimension the player has to move in, and also in part because they spend a lot more time on platforming sections and gadgets that encourage the player to slow up a little while usually allowing an experienced player to navigate these things quickly.

because there's not a whole lot of interesting things with a character that goes fast. The levels are all a mix of "on rails" going through loops and doing interesting fast things auto pilot, and slower platforming sections. you can't see far enough ahead to avoid traps so it boils down to these two types of level sections. There's not really anywhere to go with that after several games.
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It's only me and you. Who is gonna save you now?
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Sonic Mania shows Sonic can be done right. Just Sonic Team has no clue how to make a good Sonic game.
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creativerealms posted...

Sonic Mania shows Sonic can be done right. Just Sonic Team has no clue how to make a good Sonic game.

it also shows that the problem isn't the characters but people ignore that.
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GrindcoreShark posted...

No they fucking didn't. Stop parroting this blatantly wrong meme created by Redditors.

Sonic 06 was never intended to be Sonic Adventure 3

if the game was made to be sonic adventure 3 in everything but name, why does it matter what it was "intended" to be? the gameplay is so wildly inconsistent and scatterbrained that the only thing you can latch onto is the fucking name

AdviceMan posted...

Sonic's problem is that while he is about speed, precision matters more than speed. In a 3d environment, this makes him particularly difficult.

i honestly actually don't care if they slow down sonic for a 3d game
i just want the platforming and controls to actually not suck for once (sa1 was an admirable first attempt but it didn't hit the mark, and it only got blander and more basic from there)

oh, and the reason why they haven't done the series well is that they're literally not even trying to, they're just trying to make mindless trash that just so happens to have a sonic-themed skin

They tried to slow down for Lost World and people hated it
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tremain07 posted...

They tried to slow down for Lost World and people hated it

slowing it down wasn't in service of the gameplay or level design
it lacked proper flow, it had shitty controls, and it had plenty of bland empty spaces that made sonic's reduced speed stick out very badly
the bizarre level design and mechanics were killer flaws

you're just as bad as sega: "we fucked something up once so we should abandon the entire thing altogether instead of trying to actually do it right"

s0nicfan posted...

The problem is people took one tiny aspect of Sonic (speed) which was more about marketing the console hardware than it was a core part of the gameplay, and decided that it was going to be the most important part of Sonic. The old platformers had speed in spurts, but that became more and more suicidal as the stages went on. This weird emphasis on speed above all else has crippled the series' design and made in nearly impossible to make a good game from it.

I mean idk about that distinction. Seems to me it is both. The only thing that separated sonic from the myriad of other platformers of the era was go fast. Although I will be honest and say that I've never much cared for sonic for exactly this reason. The game just isn't a very good platformer in later levels where you have to slow down

all imho of course
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Balrog0 posted...

s0nicfan posted...

The problem is people took one tiny aspect of Sonic (speed) which was more about marketing the console hardware than it was a core part of the gameplay, and decided that it was going to be the most important part of Sonic. The old platformers had speed in spurts, but that became more and more suicidal as the stages went on. This weird emphasis on speed above all else has crippled the series' design and made in nearly impossible to make a good game from it.

I mean idk about that distinction. Seems to me it is both. The only thing that separated sonic from the myriad of other platformers of the era was go fast. Although I will be honest and say that I've never much cared for sonic for exactly this reason. The game just isn't a very good platformer in later levels where you have to slow down

all imho of course

Going fast is easy in early levels. Going fast without getting punished is difficult in later levels. The reason why I can replay sonic games is that my level of mastery allows me to play better.
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While I'm sure making a Sonic game is hard I just don't think that Sonic Team are capable of making a good one anymore. Especially if they can't rely on old Genesis levels and ideas.

It's weird how they've never tried making an open world Sonic game. Running around with total freedom would likely be a huge improvement on its own. The 3D platforming in Sonic has been total garbage.
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One issue I'd always heard was that, because of the speed at which Sonic can travel, creating bigger 3D levels posed a logistical challenge, at least in the Dreamcast/GC era. That is, levels had to cover greater distances, requiring more objects and resources, than say an equivalent Mario level.
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So, Sonic needed to be reimagined for the 3D consoles?
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Sonic Adventure 2 was the last one I enjoyed, but to be fair I haven't given it another shot since Heroes.
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Mario is what Sonic failed to be

a masterpiece
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AdviceMan posted...

I've always liked Sonic.

Sonic's problem is that while he is about speed, precision matters more than speed. In a 3d environment, this makes him particularly difficult. Furthermore since every formula Sonic has had has basically fractured the fanbase further, there is now no general consensus on which is the best version of Sonic. Almost everyone agrees the retro 2d Sonic is good, but some people like boost, some people like adventure, some people like rush.

I think Colors and Generations basically had it best. Mix that in with some Adventure like playstyles, and you have what is Sonic's best modern iteration. Continue in the meantime to make retro Sonic games.

This right here is why Nintendo is afraid to take risks with Mario.