Current Events > Can someone explain this conservative point of view to me

(+) Yeah! (+)

Opinion 1: When a cop tells you to do something, you do it immediately. Don't argue, don't resist. If you do what you're told you won't have a problem. If someone gets shot by a cop because they didn't comply with his orders it's their own fault.
Opinion 2: We need our guns to resist tyrannical governments

???
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not sure how those contradict each other
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The police are part of the government. If they government tells em to do a thing, they do it.
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MakoReizei posted...

not sure how those contradict each other

I'm struggling to understand that someone would resist a tyrannical government with ultimate lethal force but draws the line at politely debating a legal point with a person of authority.
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The people who say that are usually white.

And as we've seen over the last decade, if you're black the police can kill you in cold blood and get a paid vacation without you even being charged with a crime but if you're white you can gun down a church, several officers and still be taken in alive and unharmed unless you turn the gun on yourself.
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They'll refuse to even address the contradiction because they've never once thought enough about it to even notice that it exists.
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MakoReizei posted...

not sure how those contradict each other

lol
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pinky0926 posted...

MakoReizei posted...

not sure how those contradict each other

I'm struggling to understand that someone would resist a tyrannical government with ultimate lethal force but draws the line at politely debating a legal point with a person of authority.

Racism.
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Because not following the cops order is the first step of turning the Government tyrannical.
So they dont want a tyrannical Government, but they want the means to fight one in case idiots keeps forcing the Government into becoming tyrannical.
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Foppe posted...

Because not following the cops order is the first step of turning the Government tyrannical.
So they dont want a tyrannical Government, but they want the means to fight one in case idiots keeps forcing the Government into becoming tyrannical.

this is incredible, some kind of satire I guess

Actually, this one's pretty easy.

The conservative view in its simplest form is "me and mine". As long as "I'm" taken care of, the wider world can go hang. Now, each conservative has a different definition of what "me and mine" is. Sometimes it's just their household. Sometimes it's their neighborhood or their circle of peers. Sometimes it's the city, county, state, country.

In the case of the scenario you're providing, when a conservative says these two things, the police they're saying to respect are their local law enforcement. The cops of their own town or city. These are people they might know, or at least respect if they make an effort to keep "the local thugs" down.

The "government" is, in their mind, part of the "rest of the world", outside their own sphere of caring, and is a vague malevolent force that seeks to tax them dry, let in undesirables, and force them to get gay married or whatever the hot button issue is at the moment.

It is, of course, entirely hypocritical, but this is where it comes from.
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pinky0926 posted...

Opinion 1: When a cop tells you to do something, you do it immediately. Don't argue, don't resist. If you do what you're told you won't have a problem. If someone gets shot by a cop because they didn't comply with his orders it's their own fault.
Opinion 2: We need our guns to resist tyrannical governments

???

Opinion 2 is a strawman. Nobody is actually fighting or resisting any government. People -are- obeying cops' orders though.
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pinky0926 posted...

Opinion 1: When a cop tells you to do something, you do it immediately. Don't argue, don't resist. If you do what you're told you won't have a problem. If someone gets shot by a cop because they didn't comply with his orders it's their own fault.
Opinion 2: We need our guns to resist tyrannical governments

???

It's not really contradictory because they, for the most part, don't believe the government is tyrannical. Not counting the more extreme libertarian types, who aren't exactly the typical conservative.

Conservatism typically includes a respect for legitimate authority figures like police officers. That means that they believe you should be respectful toward those police and follow directions during the process, assuming the officer is also acting in accordance with the law.

That said, they also believe the citizenry should be able to own and operate firearms in the case that the government does become tyrannical. For example, if the government wanted to take away the right to own guns.
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Esrac posted...

It's not really contradictory because they, for the most part, don't believe the government is tyrannical. Not counting the more extreme libertarian types, who aren't exactly the typical conservative.

Conservatism typically includes a respect for legitimate authority figures like police officers. That means that they believe you should be respectful toward those police and follow directions during the process, assuming the officer is also acting in accordance with the law.

That said, they also believe the citizenry should be able to own and operate firearms in the case that the government does become tyrannical. For example, if the government wanted to take away the right to own guns.

If they respected these authority figures as they should, should they not also respect the liberty of citizens to question their authority? It seems to me like conservatives often take issue with merely asking a question of an officer or not immediately complying with whatever they say.
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Steve Nick posted...

Nobody is actually fighting or resisting any government.

Ammon Bundy would disagree
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They mean resist liberal/democrat tyrannical government. It's ok when Republicans act shady and tyrannical. They're fucking with elections and then there's all those illegals being treated horribly and thrown in cages. Then there's cops gunning down citizens every day, but do you hear any one of these 2nd amendment folk make even a peep? Nope.

On the flip side (yes I'm going to be one of those guys), the more extreme anti gun folk want guns extremely limited or outright banned, yet complain about how fascist our police and government act and how the 1% control everything. Well, how the hell you going to stop all that if you have no guns? Making memes and kumbaya circle protests won't do nothing. I'll take a slim chance over no chance.

I say all that as a liberal btw. I think the partisan view on guns in America is completely ass backwards. Liberals should embrace them while conservatives should hate them cause you can't talk back to daddy authority. Conservative worship authority and to question is being an uppity troublemaker criminal.
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Unless the officer is telling you to do something illegal, do as he says.

Easy, not sure why thered be any confusion.

pinky0926 posted...

Opinion 1: When a cop tells you to do something, you do it immediately. Don't argue, don't resist. If you do what you're told you won't have a problem. If someone gets shot by a cop because they didn't comply with his orders it's their own fault.
Opinion 2: We need our guns to resist tyrannical governments

???

I've asked this exact question before and never got a coherent response.
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SonyFan462 posted...

Unless the officer is telling you to do something illegal, do as he says.

Easy, not sure why thered be any confusion.

Are you always legally obligated to do as an officer says?
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SonyFan462 posted...

Unless the officer is telling you to do something illegal, do as he says.

Easy, not sure why thered be any confusion.

But that's not what it says in the OP.
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pinky0926 posted...

Esrac posted...

It's not really contradictory because they, for the most part, don't believe the government is tyrannical. Not counting the more extreme libertarian types, who aren't exactly the typical conservative.

Conservatism typically includes a respect for legitimate authority figures like police officers. That means that they believe you should be respectful toward those police and follow directions during the process, assuming the officer is also acting in accordance with the law.

That said, they also believe the citizenry should be able to own and operate firearms in the case that the government does become tyrannical. For example, if the government wanted to take away the right to own guns.

If they respected these authority figures as they should, should they not also respect the liberty of citizens to question their authority? It seems to me like conservatives often take issue with merely asking a question of an officer or not immediately complying with whatever they say.

No, respecting authority figures doesn't necessitate that you also respect that citizens question their authority during an encounter.

If you are being arrested or otherwise detained, you are not in a position to question the authority of the police officer. It is not the time or the place. They are, in fact, the de facto authority figure in that situation as appointed by the government, whether you want to question that or not, and you are obligated to comply with their direction in the pursuit of the law. Don't start quoting the articles of confederation or maritime law when the police pull you over for speeding and ask for your ID.

If you want to debate the level of authority of the police, do it through your local or state representatives. Elect representatives that are willing to curtail police authority. Or, if you have cause to believe your rights have been violated, seek recompense through the court system.

Beyond that, I think conservatism places a relatively high value on social order and function. Meaning they want to maintain the status quo. Part of the function of authority figures like the police is maintaining the functioning state of that social order and interfering with that is causing trouble. It's not a coincidence that conservatives are relatively resistant to change and accepting new things.
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1 should be "then votes for those who will boost the military budget"
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Esrac posted...

No, respecting authority figures doesn't necessitate that you also respect that citizens question their authority during an encounter.

If you are being arrested or otherwise detained, you are not in a position to question the authority of the police officer. It is not the time or the place. They are, in fact, the de facto authority figure in that situation as appointed by the government, whether you want to question that or not, and you are obligated to comply with their direction in the pursuit of the law. Don't start quoting the articles of confederation or maritime law when the police pull you over for speeding and ask for your ID.

And if an officer demands you to answer their question, when you know this is not wise?

Police officers are public servants. They should not be treated as all-powerful, even on the beat.
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I had an answering post but ga.eraven reloaded on me and erased all my progress and I dont feel like typing it all out again.

Long story short, conservatives arent anarchists, they believe in needing authority figures like the police to keep the peace and respecting said authority. But at the same time they realize authority figures can abuse power so they believe the people should have the means available to fight back in that case.
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im not a conservative but i think banning guns is stupid
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SonyFan462 posted...

Unless the officer is telling you to do something illegal, do as he says.

Easy, not sure why thered be any confusion.

How do you imagine a tyrannical government even manifesting?
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I'm not here to debate if it makes sense or not, but I'd say most conservatives just don't see their local law enforcement as "government." Obviously they technically are but usually you kind of have home town pride or whatever, and even if it isn't a small enough town that you know the officers all personally, if you know a couple cops you probably just think of them all as good dudes doing their job and not government agents.

When they say tyrannical governments they are probably thinking of New World Order black helicopters piloted by Hollywood Hogan. Or Hillary/Obama.
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Guide posted...

The police are part of the government. If they government tells em to do a thing, they do it.

But the Repubs hate the Government and fights for a smaller government as much as possible.
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Veggeta X posted...

Guide posted...

The police are part of the government. If they government tells em to do a thing, they do it.

But the Repubs hate the Government and fights for a smaller government as much as possible.

and then votes for a larger military so their guns really wont stand a chance
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liberals are so good at explaining conservative viewpoints to each other
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The Trent posted...

liberals are so good at explaining conservative viewpoints to each other

irony
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is that what irony is
the internet has me confused about the term
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A_Good_Boy posted...

SonyFan462 posted...

Unless the officer is telling you to do something illegal, do as he says.

Easy, not sure why thered be any confusion.

How do you imagine a tyrannical government even manifesting?

When government takes away rights like what Democrat presidents do.
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The Trent posted...

is that what irony is
the internet has me confused about the term

Must be nice to selectively understand it whenever you want to.
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Perhaps you should expound
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Opinion 1 isn't a conservative view, it's just sort of a common sense thing to stay out of trouble. Arguing with and trying to be smart with the cops almost never improves your situation.

I don't really know how many people actually believe opinion two. I mean, it made sense back in the 18th century but our government has aircraft carriers and nukes now. It seems to be more of a talking point with the real reasons for gun ownership being self defense and recreation.
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TC seems to be claiming that if you're pro guns, you should immediately shoot the police in any interaction with them.

Low tier IQ or low tier trolling.
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It's a counter to the liberal opinions

Opinion 1: Cops are racist and can not be trusted
Opinion 2: Only cops should have guns
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

TC seems to be claiming that if you're pro guns, you should immediately shoot the police in any interaction with them.

Low tier IQ or low tier trolling.

No

Also, I'm not anti-guns
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TomNook20 posted...

I don't really know how many people actually believe opinion two. I mean, it made sense back in the 18th century but our government has aircraft carriers and nukes now. It seems to be more of a talking point with the real reasons for gun ownership being self defense and recreation.

To be fair, a lot of the military weaponry being used against civilians is assuming that everyone in the armed forces is going to side with the government in a tyrannical gov't scenario. I've read a few articles where people talk about it and they say that the biggest things that would be used are tanks but even it's a bit of a reach to say that semi-auto could keep up... But yeah, nowadays? You'd probably need a good 1/3 to 1/2 of the military abandoning their post and siding w/ civilians. Cus like, if the military/govt goes rogue then them destroying cities won't exactly be good.. Also I'd imagine Russia or something would either supply arms to civilians, or use the divide as a chance to try taking over.

TomNook20 posted...

Arguing with and trying to be smart with the cops almost never improves your situation.

Also this. It's the equivalent of unnecessarily arguing with your teachers when they're already suspicious of you doing something wrong and then wondering why you got a week of detention instead of just staying after class for 10 min.
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the conservative boogie man is not the police, it's the federal government
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Man I thought people on ce couldnt get any dumber but tc proved me wrong on that

Yup in conservatisms 300 years, youve finally taken it down with such crisp logic

Romes187 posted...

Man I thought people on ce couldnt get any dumber but tc proved me wrong on that

Yup in conservatisms 300 years, youve finally taken it down with such crisp logic

Do you relate to and agree with the conservatism of 300 years ago
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Opinion 1: The Police are corrupt and racist and are going to kill you.
Opinion 2: You don't need guns because you have the police.

?????????
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

TC seems to be claiming that if you're pro guns, you should immediately shoot the police in any interaction with them.

Low tier IQ or low tier trolling.

This is a low iq interpretation of the OP.
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pinky0926 posted...

Romes187 posted...

Man I thought people on ce couldnt get any dumber but tc proved me wrong on that

Yup in conservatisms 300 years, youve finally taken it down with such crisp logic

Do you relate to and agree with the conservatism of 300 years ago

I do indeed relate to many ideas that come out of classic British philosophical conservatism.

Amatsukaze posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

SonyFan462 posted...

Unless the officer is telling you to do something illegal, do as he says.

Easy, not sure why thered be any confusion.

How do you imagine a tyrannical government even manifesting?

When government takes away rights like what Democrat presidents do.

But it will be via new laws or alternate interpretation of older laws, won't it?
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Sphyx posted...

MakoReizei posted...

not sure how those contradict each other

lol

They really don't. Shooting a cop when he orders you to do something you don't want to do is not the only way to fight tyrannical government. It's one of thousands of different ways, and it's definitely one of the more stupid ways to fight for sure.
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