Board 8 > Which of these opinions of Michael Scott do you agree with more?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I recently discovered there is large portion of people who absolutely despise Michael Scott.

Not in a, they dont find him entertaining way, but that they hate him as a person.

I love Michael but apparently I (may) have the more uncommon opinion.
---

Loveable guy, yet an asshole.
---

Man I'm really torn.

Like look how he is say, the only one who comes to support Pam at her art show and tell her he is proud of her.

But then look at how he treats Phyllis and especially Toby on a regular basis.
---

Who?
---

Underleveled posted...

Toby

You misspelled the Scranton Strangler.
---

he's honestly just hugely inconsistent

like he has plenty of lovable moments

but for every moment like him buying Pam's art, there are even more moments of him being racist and sexist and reckless and sometimes just flat out mean

it's usually played for laughs but like, he's attempted to just outright grope both employees and his improv classmates. the one episode has him refusing to do literally any work out of laziness to the point that all the employees have to stay late and forge his signatures to get the work done for him. flashes pam and brags about fucking her mom. literally hits meredith with his car. held a teenager hostage for not accepting his pizza coupon.

My opinion kind of changes episode to episode because he really is just terribly inconsistent to the point he's barely the same character half the time, but overall I'd say he definitely does more bad than good.
---

Okay, flashing Pam was a clear mistake, and so was hitting Meredith with his car. And the film crew actually should be held responsible for that because they SHOULDN'T FUCKING INTERVIEW HIM WHILE DRIVING.
---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePbipufCPYw" data-time="&start=97
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Okay, flashing Pam was a clear mistake, and so was hitting Meredith with his car.

they're "mistakes" that are illegal acts that should've gotten him fired

You call your female employee into your office and then "Oops, my penis is out, how'd that happen?" That's not something that can be chalked up to a goofy mistake
---

Season 1 and 2, asshole.
Everything after, loveable guy.

I mean, they clearly had an about face and made him much more likeable in the later seasons, like all his really bad traits were just played for jokes and not to be taken seriously. The only real exception is Toby....

If this havent happened, no one would have cared during 9,986,000 minutes. Wed still hate him
---

Johnbobb posted...

You call your female employee into your office and then "Oops, my penis is out, how'd that happen?" That's not something that can be chalked up to a goofy mistake

I mean that's a pretty big misrepresentation of what happened
---

Hitting someone with your car accidentally is not an illegal act, and it wouldn't get you fired either.

Johnbobb posted...

You call your female employee into your office and then "Oops, my penis is out, how'd that happen?" That's not something that can be chalked up to a goofy mistake

Not even close to what happens in that scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF5HCUmINE4" data-time="

She goes to the door, he says, "Don't come in," she doesn't here the first part (it's audible if you turn up the volume), and it's clearly an accident.

You not only have no grasp of law, but also no grasp of what happens in a scene.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

Hitting someone with your car accidentally is not an illegal act, and it wouldn't get you fired either.

it would if it's your employee, in the parking lot of your office
---

Johnbobb posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Hitting someone with your car accidentally is not an illegal act, and it wouldn't get you fired either.

it would if it's your employee, in the parking lot of your office

No, it wouldn't. It was an accident, and it was caused by a distraction that was instigated by a film crew that would have to take the credit for causing the accident. I worked at a place where someone backed up and ran over someone else's foot. The first person offered to pay for the medical bills, the second person refused it, the company never got involved.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

She goes to the door, he says, "Don't come in," she doesn't here the first part (it's audible if you turn up the volume), and it's clearly an accident.

I think you're imagining the "don't." even at full volume it doesn't say it, and later in the episode it's even readdressed that he said "come in" specifically. His argument isn't even that he didn't say to come in, it's that she should've waited and not come in anyway for dumb reasoning

that on top of the fact that there is literally no reason to ever have your dick out in your office. That's not something that should have to be taught to the manager of all people
---

Johnbobb posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

She goes to the door, he says, "Don't come in," she doesn't here the first part (it's audible if you turn up the volume), and it's clearly an accident.

I think you're imagining the "don't." even at full volume it doesn't say it, and later in the episode it's even readdressed that he said "come in" specifically. His argument isn't even that he didn't say to come in, it's that she should've waited and not come in anyway for dumb reasoning

that on top of the fact that there is literally no reason to ever have your dick out in your office. That's not something that should have to be taught to the manager of all people

You do realize people change in their offices, right.

Like, that's not an uncommon thing.
---

Later in the episode it's readdressed and he says he said "Don't come in."

Like, you're not wrong that he shouldn't have been changing necessarily in there without locking his door, but he also didn't purposely flash her or purposely hit Meredith with his car. You are grossly mischaracterizing his behavior. You could call him negligent and a bad manager with no capability of understanding the managerial structure of an office, but to attempt to characterize him as a sexual predator or a murderer is truly sickening.
---

Especially when there is an ACTUAL murderer in that office, and I don't see you calling for justice against Toby.
---

He is definitely an asshole and gets a pass for most of it because he's an idiot
---

WrestIeMania posted...

Season 1 and 2, asshole.
Everything after, loveable guy.

This, I don't think they really found his voice completely yet at the start, he was a lot more mean then. After that he was just ignorant about a lot of things.
---

bryans7 posted...

WrestIeMania posted...

Season 1 and 2, asshole.
Everything after, loveable guy.

This, I don't think they really found his voice completely yet at the start, he was a lot more mean then. After that he was just ignorant about a lot of things.

Well, one reason is they didnt have to at that time.

Jim and Pam were CLEARLY the engine the first few seasons. When that didnt have the strength to carry the show anymore they had to finally get something out of their main character. And thats when they finally played around with Michael
---

The debate rages on
---

People who hate Michael Scott are just "woke" now. He was loved when the office was on and the show died without him. Everyone has to judge the past to feel good about themselves in the now. Nothing different.

Steve Carrell has flat out said The Office as a show couldn't exist in today's society now. That says enough.
---

Corrik posted...

People who hate Michael Scott are just "woke" now. He was loved when the office was on and the show died without him. Everyone has to judge the past to feel good about themselves in the now. Nothing different.

Steve Carrell has flat out said The Office as a show couldn't exist in today's society now. That says enough.

Oh I agree he really made the show, but that doesnt mean he wasnt an asshole.
---

Underleveled posted...

Corrik posted...

People who hate Michael Scott are just "woke" now. He was loved when the office was on and the show died without him. Everyone has to judge the past to feel good about themselves in the now. Nothing different.

Steve Carrell has flat out said The Office as a show couldn't exist in today's society now. That says enough.

Oh I agree he really made the show, but that doesnt mean he wasnt an asshole.

Yeah, it's weird people can't acknowledge his character is objectively awful while still being an important and funny part of the show.

I mean, does anyone think Dwight is a good person?
---

10 years from now people will call the show unwatchable, problematic, and call for it's takedown on Netflix.

Hell, 5 years from now.
---

These results are exactly what Ive been getting previously.

I think Michael does assholeish things, but I dont think hes an asshole altogether. He also is rarely stuck in his beliefs. He usually seemed willing to improve himself or learn from others.

With that said, I couldnt debate someone who thinks hes a jerk as they have plenty of evidence to work with that I cant refute.
---

We get to see him sad and lonely and feel for him because of it, but he's still an asshole.
---

It's almost like he's a character with more than one dimension.
---

Like I guess we could categorize Jim as a bully for continually harassing his marginally autistic co-worker if we're gonna go this route.
---

Umm no one on the show is a "good" person thats the entire fucking point.
---

He's a usually well-meaning, but also sometimes selfish, lovable asshole.
---

Eddv posted...

Umm no one on the show is a "good" person thats the entire fucking point.

Erin?
---

WrestleManiaXII posted...

Eddv posted...

Umm no one on the show is a "good" person thats the entire fucking point.

Erin?

Kevin as well.

Even Oscar and Phyllis are hard to find too much fault with.
---

Phyllis is a total jerk at times. She can be very condescending.
---

wg64Z posted...

10 years from now people will call the show unwatchable, problematic, and call for it's takedown on Netflix.

Hell, 5 years from now.

If it hasn't really happened with Friends yet then I think The Office is safe.
---

Kenri posted...

wg64Z posted...

10 years from now people will call the show unwatchable, problematic, and call for it's takedown on Netflix.

Hell, 5 years from now.

If it hasn't really happened with Friends yet then I think The Office is safe.

I mean, it HAS happened to Friends so...
---

Underleveled posted...

WrestleManiaXII posted...

Eddv posted...

Umm no one on the show is a "good" person thats the entire fucking point.

Erin?

Kevin as well.

Even Oscar and Phyllis are hard to find too much fault with.

I mean sure, the more minor the character the more subtle their flaws.

Erin is pretty stupid and a bit petty (admittedly mostly towards Pam)

Kevin is a pervert.

Oscar is fairly conceited and greedy, it just doesn't come up that often.

Phyllis is condescending and mean at times.

There are no heroes here - they're all flawed humans with major personality quirks. That's the whole point.
---

Eddv posted...

Underleveled posted...

WrestleManiaXII posted...

Eddv posted...

Umm no one on the show is a "good" person thats the entire fucking point.

Erin?

Kevin as well.

Even Oscar and Phyllis are hard to find too much fault with.

I mean sure, the more minor the character the more subtle their flaws.

Erin is pretty stupid and a bit petty (admittedly mostly towards Pam)

Kevin is a pervert.

Oscar is fairly conceited and greedy, it just doesn't come up that often.

Phyllis is condescending and mean at times.

There are no heroes here - they're all flawed humans with major personality quirks. That's the whole point.

Toby if he isnt the strangler?
---

Phyllis is very much a "wolf in sheeps clothing" kind of person imo. Oscar isn't a bad person he just is kind of condescending, which I mean, everyone has their faults.

Michael imo is just a big manchild who just really wants friends and nothing more. The things he does are because he just doesn't know any better, or he doesn't know how to cope with his emotions, rather than him just being mean-spirited like uh, what's-his-face, his friend who only shows up for a couple of episodes. How he treats Toby is like exhibit A of this. He doesn't hate toby so much as a person, but rather he hates the position that toby represents, that the position is there to make sure he doesn't make his workplace fun (in his mind), and sure enough, once Holly Flax takes over for toby, Michael initially shows her the same hostility he showed toby. But the various times where he exhibits genuine, heartfelt advice to someone who's down shows that he really does care about others. That childlike innocence is both his greatest asset (easily related to others when he was a salesmen) and his greatest weakness (is easily taken advantage of, treats certain people badly). He's definitely not fit for a management position, but that doesn't make him an asshole.
---

Of course they are more than one dimensional characters with flaws, nobody is denying that. Im just asking do you think Michael leans more to good or bad.
---

Yeah I got long winded there.

I think he leans more good.
---

WrestleManiaXII posted...

Toby if he isnt the strangler?

Irrelevant; he is the strangler
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

Like I guess we could categorize Jim as a bully .

Jim is 100% more of an asshole than Michael.

-Essentially psychologically tortures Dwight for years because he finds Dwight mildly annoying. Some of the stuff he does is absolutely bonkers insane. He writes an entire fake book about garden parties on the off chance Dwight buys it on Amazon. Do you know how long that must take? He tricks Dwight into thinking he had a walk on role on a tv show, which costs Dwight who knows how much in air fare to California and hotel fees. He gas lights Dwight into thinking he's been Asian for his entire life, going as far to get a friend of theirs to kiss his own wife just for the sake of making Dwight feel like he's going crazy for a couple of hours. He does stuff like this for years and Dwight hardly ever fights back.

-He's profoundly shitty to the women he dates. He essentially strings along Katy and Karen only as long as his infatuation with Pam will let him. He has Karen move to Scranton and then dumps her just to be with Pam. "True love" and all of that, but if you look at it from their perspectives it is an incredibly awful thing to do. Katy he basically ignores and treats her like she is some drooling idiot because she likes Legally Blonde and was a cheerleader. Karen clearly has strong feelings for Jim, and Jim dumps her the moment Pam winks at him.

-His thing for Pam in early seasons goes way beyond a normal crush. Like, he's a stalker. Pam is engaged to someone else, but this dude basically stalks her. She put hot sauce on her hot dog by accident a couple years ago...so he kept the other packets to give to her for Christmas? That's bonkers. He's hoarding her garbage. If Jim looked like Dwight, Pam would get a restraining order.

-Ignores Pam's wishes and starts his own business without asking her about it, then is basically oblivious about it for half a season as Pam sobs to the production guys. This is way worse than what Roy did and we were supposed to root against Roy in the early seasons.

-He's a bully to Kevin in the episode where they make the Cookie Monster video. Kevin is clearly bothered by it but Jim keeps doing the Cookie Monster voice right in front of his face. Worst part is unlike Michael or Packer who poke fun at Kevin's weight, jim is supposed to be his friend.

Jim is an asshole to everyone the entire show, and we let him get away with it because he's attractive. We all think we're the jim at our work, but we're not. We'd be the oscar - someone just trying to do their job while the idiot two desks over is wrapping someone's desk in wrapping paper and lazily goofing around at reception ten minutes later.

Oh and I forgot the most annoying thing of all. Multiple times in the show he steals someone else's mug and tries to make them feel bad about him using it. Imagine if the weird guy at work took your mug and started drinking out of it because he was too damn lazy to bring his own. Darrell has every reason to be mad you lazy bastard, you don't even wash your dishes.
---

Jim is also acting manager for a day - ONE DAMN DAY - and tries to change the entire office birthday policy by cramming six birthdays into one day without consulting anyone about it. Michael doesn't get fired or go on vacation - he heads out of the office for one day with Dwight (he's actually back the same day) and Jim tries to force a major policy change on the entire office because of how much time birthday celebrations waste.

The same dude who organized an Office Olympics where people put boxes of paper on their feet and tried to walk. The same dude the spent who knows how long wrapping air in the shape of the desk so Dwight would fall. This dude is now "oh no more birthdays get to work peons" the second he gets a sniff of power.

Fuck Jim. Roy is a way better character.
---

Yes I've watched The Office in the background while working or playing a handheld game roughly 15 times through and I have strong opinions on Jim, the true asshole of the show.
---

Eddv posted...

WrestleManiaXII posted...

Toby if he isnt the strangler?

Irrelevant; he is the strangler

Ok.... lets pretend hes not. Just from what we see in the office, isnt Tony a good person?
---

You are the Toby of this topic.
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

Like I guess we could categorize Jim as a bully for continually harassing his marginally autistic co-worker if we're gonna go this route.

Jim is a bully. Never liked him. I'm not sure if I can see myself being friends with any of the office characters (maybe Pam?). They were really entertaining but also kind of extreme caricatures.
---

Oh, and Daryl. Cool dude.
---