Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 460: Crowned Fools

(+) Yeah! (+)

Hope no fistfights break out.
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https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/1056751068451930112?s=21

I choose this topic
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Later JaKyL will be corrected by a referee and he will choose the other topic.
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oh my god the hardys
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqpY8cYVAAMAV-I?format=jpg&name=medium
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boo mine was first :(
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Btw saw a poll where 88% said the LWS match was MotN.
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I wasn't trying to claim that the LWS was objectively speaking the #4 MotN. I don't actually care if you think it's MotN-- to me the 4 good matches on the show could all be considered MotN as I didn't feel there was a huge gap in quality between any of them.

****1/2 just seems stupidly high for it though.
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https://twitter.com/beckylynchwwe/status/1056741669733838848?s=21
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https://twitter.com/WWE/status/1056775389966680064?s=19

She's so great
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Becky was acting before she started with WWE, so she had the background already.

Her and Charlotte should have definitely closed the show.

Becky is the champ the crowd has been wanting for years. She's just a "heel"
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Evolution was brilliant for a first go!

I'm willing to stand up in a parking lot and fight some people on here in the rain/thunder to stand by that point!

Anyhow, I would have put Becky/Charlotte on last.

Follow that, Crown Jewel.
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What's the status on Crown Jewel btw? Last I heard it was still on in Saudi Arabia but Bryan and Cena were refusing to go, but they were still being advertised for it last night.
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Cena is not going and they are supposedly dealing with it on Raw tonight. Daniel Bryan is supposed to not go and they are supposedly not going to announce this on Smackdown or anything, but it will be a storyline done at Crown Jewel for why he isn't there.
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So on the plus side, my visceral reaction to calling Becky/Charlotte a ****1/2 match made me think about "why isn't it" and I think I can actually determine, at least for me, whether matches fall into the 2 star, 3 star, and 4 star range. This is actually new to me since I usually just skirt the idea of ratings other than a general idea that 3 star is good.

So the first question I ask myself is was the match good. If I can immediately say "yeah it was good" without thinking, then we're looking at a 3 star match minimum. I think each of the 4 best matches on the card last night fall into that category.

The next question I ask myself is whether I would want to watch the match again at some point. If the answer isn't yes without question, then it's not going to be a 4 star match, for me. None of the matches from last night scream out that I'd really want to rewatch them at any point (though Kairi/Baszler comes close), so none clear 4 stars.

Now beyond those two questions it gets complicated. We start asking questions about whether on a rewatch of the PPV I'd make a point to watch the match for any reason other than wanting consider re-evaluating my rating of the match, whether I'd look forward to it on a rewatch, whether I'd likely only half pay attention on a rewatch, whether I'd consider skipping outright, stuff like that. I could probably verbalize it all but I'm sure even with just an explanation of 3 and 4 stars I'm running out the patience of people. So with that in mind, these star ratings seem natural to me:

***3/4 - Kairi Sane vs Shayna Baszler
***1/2 - Nikki Bella vs Ronda Rousey
***1/4 - Io Shirai vs Toni Storm
***1/4 - Becky Lynch vs Charlotte
** - Women's Battle Royal
*3/4 - Riott Squad v Sasha/Bayley/Natalya
*3/4 - Trish/Lita v Alicia/Mickie

Not a bad show all things considered.
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By all means go into more details. Personal rationales for their rating scales are not discussed enough!

Mine is very much based on how it made me feel in the moment, without very much reflection. Its an instinctual thing
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I'd put Baszler/Sane below Becky/Charlotte and Nikki/Ronda below Baszler/Sane.
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So I guess if you wanted to fully unpack all quarter star ratings, for me, as a ballpark, it's going to be something like this.

***** - If I made a list of my favorite matches of all time this is going on there, somewhere.
**** - Great match and would make a point to watch again at some point. A PPV pretty much needs to have at least one of these for me to consider rewatching the PPV as a whole ever.
*** - Good match and worth watching in the moment.
** - Decent filler match. You can have a few of these on a show without hurting it though you wouldn't want your whole show to be these.
* - Match that the show would ultimately better off not having.

Stuff that offends me would be sub * rating, depending on how much.

So now beyond that, on the quarters, if I had to think about it, it's mostly about finding specific flaws or positive notes the match hit. A +3/4 star would generally be something that feels closer to the rating above but had a flaw that rubbed me the wrong way. A 1/4 star would be something that clearly fits into the rating below it, but did something exceptionally well that gives it a reason to stand out. In the *** range, for this PPV, I'm also kinda thinking about how I'd approach these matches on a rewatch.

For me, unpacking the card was like this:

I really liked Kairi vs Baszler, and got into it the most by far, but I can't say I'd want to watch it again. I'm thinking it's probably the finish. A little too much ref distraction for me. I had to think about it though, and were I to rewatch I'd definitely look forward to this one.

Nikki vs Ronda probably got some benefit due to low expectations and just the aura that Ronda still sorta has in a big match, but I found myself very invested in it by the end.

The other two didn't feel bad for most of the match but I never got into them very much. So thinking about it some more I'd probably put "did I get invested in the match at any point" as the pre-requisite to reach ***1/2. I feel like Charlotte/Becky and Io/Toni were both close to that. Both failing to reach for different reasons.

The MYC final had the issue where it ended just a bit too early to really get a big reaction from me. The match was like 10 minutes with a fairly tentative start? They just needed more time.

Charlotte/Becky on the other hand had all the right tools, but was just poorly laid out. If we do the part where they're brawling through the crowd before the part with the slams onto the ladders and chairs in the ring, it no longer feels like an extended filler and the match is still building to a climax. If you cut the stupid spot with the announce table and burying Charlotte under chairs, you remove a dumb time consuming segment that took me out of it. I think it could've been a **** if sequenced differently but I wouldn't even put it close to that as it was.

For the Battle Royal, and the two tags, now we're talking on different levels. They all basically felt like pointless filler and nothing beyond that. The Trish tag had a lot of botches that took me out of it, and the trio was basically just aggressively lacking any sort of investment because these fools have battled pointlessly for so long now. I can't really say they hurt the show a ton though. They were watchable, so not deep into the * range.

The Battle Royal had a cool Ember moment, but had little in the way of excitement beyond that. The booking probably knocks this down 1/4 * too.

I'm guessing **1/2 would be a match that was definitely fillery but had some enjoyable moments for me, and **3/4 would be a match that felt good but had some particularly glaring flaws. None of either on this show.

There you go Jakyl hope that rambling tirade was worth reading for you of interest in star ratings, or others in the topic. It's something I don't mind talking about cause I feel the more I talk about it the better I'll be at accurately rating stuff to my tastes. Even just now I was able to put my finger on why Nikki deserved ***1/2 and the others didn't.
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so thinking, the womens rumble being 30 people this year is doable but still stretching thin, I thinkits better cutting down to 20 for now

if you want to make Evolution a yearly thing it going to need a bigger roster overall I think
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Well WWE needs a larger roster of women in general to achieve the amount of exposure they claim to want. You can't run 2 women's matches every show with only like 6 active women per show especially running as many tag matches as they like to.
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XIII_rocks posted...

https://twitter.com/WWE/status/1056775389966680064?s=19

Becky Lynch just declared herself The Man!

Or maybe start a separate The Woman championship. She even beat the appropriate person to start this reign
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the woMan is sufficient
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That works!

Inaugural The woMan: Becky Lynch

The Man championship still vacant until someone declares themselves/someone else The Man
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ScareChan posted...

so thinking, the womens rumble being 30 people this year is doable but still stretching thin, I thinkits better cutting down to 20 for now

if you want to make Evolution a yearly thing it going to need a bigger roster overall I think

Please don't screw up the most important part of Rumbles for something so trivial.
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ZeroSignal620 posted...

That works!

Inaugural The woMan: Becky Lynch

The Man championship still vacant until someone declares themselves/someone else The Man

I disagree, I think The Man can encompass both genders AND Becky can't claim The Woman title if she actually doesn't declare herself The Woman.

Also I want to see if somehow the lineage makes it back to men.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Which is all it really should be tbqh

I mean, it is. If I think a match is a 4* match instinctively I'm not going to re-evaluate if it fails to meet some criteria. But the criteria I was laying out were things a 4* match will always hit on anyway.

I'm just sorta trying to verbalize the components in the instinct I guess.
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*- it was not good
**- I got kinda bored
**1/2- Okay
***- hey that was fun
****- whoa that was cool
****1/2- if you ask me what my favorite match is, this'll be one of the ones in the running
*****- I don't think I have ever felt justified giving this out
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Gargano/Ciampa 2 might be the only match I retroactively give a 5 star because how much the ending fed into long term storytelling.
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Also I still love that ending and it's still my favorite ending ever in wrestling.
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Off the top of my head, the big WWE 5-star matches for me are Hart/Austin and the 1992 Royal Rumble. Those are my standards for rating a match five stars in the 'E. But I also have some weird opinions. For example, I would give Brock/AJ 4.5 stars.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

ScareChan posted...

so thinking, the womens rumble being 30 people this year is doable but still stretching thin, I thinkits better cutting down to 20 for now

if you want to make Evolution a yearly thing it going to need a bigger roster overall I think

Please don't screw up the most important part of Rumbles for something so trivial.

? Rumble has been 20, 30, 40, and 50 for men. Shrinking women from 30 to 20 would be fine I think
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ScareChan posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

ScareChan posted...

so thinking, the womens rumble being 30 people this year is doable but still stretching thin, I thinkits better cutting down to 20 for now

if you want to make Evolution a yearly thing it going to need a bigger roster overall I think

Please don't screw up the most important part of Rumbles for something so trivial.

? Rumble has been 20, 30, 40, and 50 for men. Shrinking women from 30 to 20 would be fine I think

Dammit, for once we can have consistent statistics for a Rumble's history and you want to go and fuck it up for what? So there's less fodder in a Rumble? So people do what? Enjoy it slightly more? Get out of here with that nonsense.

Stats are all that matters in Rumbles.
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Okay obviously I hit some type of nerve so will be moving on
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Hart/Austin and the 1992 Royal Rumble.

True story those are the two matches (assuming we mean Mania 13-- they had a pretty awesome Survivor Series match too among others) that immediately sprung to mind for me as well.

The third match was Cena/Rollins/Lesnar at the Rumble. Not sure all 3 of those would be ***** but they're definitely the leaders for WWE matches for me.
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best non 5star match would be Harper and Ziggler ladder match at whatever ppv it was imo
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HBK vs Taker HiaC
HBK vs Taker WM25
HBK vs Taker WM26
HBK vs Angle WM21

.... this is just going to be a list of HBK matches
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ScareChan posted...

Okay obviously I hit some type of nerve so will be moving on

I'm clearly making a joke.
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Lopen posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Hart/Austin and the 1992 Royal Rumble.

True story those are the two matches (assuming we mean Mania 13-- they had a pretty awesome Survivor Series match too among others) that immediately sprung to mind for me as well.

The third match was Cena/Rollins/Lesnar at the Rumble. Not sure all 3 of those would be ***** but they're definitely the leaders for WWE matches for me.

It's definitely right up there for me as well. I think, aside from the AJ/Cena matches, I would probably say they are the most recent 5 star matches on WWE's main roster.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

ScareChan posted...

Okay obviously I hit some type of nerve so will be moving on

I'm clearly making a joke.

after recent topics its hard to tell and I have picked worse hills to die on so I decided to take the safe route hahaha
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Whiskey_Nick posted...

HBK vs Taker HiaC
HBK vs Taker WM25
HBK vs Taker WM26
HBK vs Angle WM21

.... this is just going to be a list of HBK matches

To ad to this list....

Street fight 2002
Survivor Series 2002
Mind Games 1996
Ironman WM XII
Jericho WM XIX (match of the year, right me)
WM XX
Cena for an hour
Jericho Ladder Match 08
Flair WM XXIV

If you include the Rumble (07 and 92) of which he was in. It is quite an easy statement to say HBK might be in 16 of the 20 best WWE matches ever.

HiaC and WM25 are probably ****1/2 for me. WM26 might not actually even be ****.

HBK vs Angle I should rewatch since I hardly remember it-- possible I haven't even seen it. On paper I feel like I'd probably like it more than all the Taker ones since it's HBK vs Angle for crissakes.
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Now that Braun is back in full face mode, I don't see how they don't make him champ.

I can certainly see Vince wanting to go back to Lesnar with the safe route, but he was never going to win the rematch because he's going back to UFC. We don't need another year or two of an absentee champion.
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I don't imagine anyone really cares but since I'm almost definitely the biggest workrate nerd in this topic and I'm bored I might as well talk through my star rating process as well.

* - Boring and poorly worked. I call this the Jinder Mahal Special.
** - Boring OR poorly worked. This is sort of my baseline. If the match doesn't do anything to either impress me or aggravate me, it'll be here.
*** - Competent match that I don't feel like I wasted my time by watching but will never think about again.
**** - Memorable in some way. Particularly well worked and/or has a good story behind it.
****1/4 - See above, but with more high spots and/or things I haven't seen before or have seen only rarely
****1/2 - Something I'll actively seek out and watch again. Awesome work and/or storytelling, usually both.
****3/4 - Almost perfect, but with enough holding it back that I can't count it among the best matches of all time. Maybe there was a botch that really stood out (Taker/Shawn WM 25), maybe the story wasn't one I had a strong investment in (most of the Omega/Naito matches), maybe it was ruined by a flat ending (Punk/Cena MITB). Or maybe there was something else I can't put my finger on except that it just didn't feel like a 5 star match.

The five star rating kind of requires its own section because I think pretty hard about it, and over the years I've started to use a system similar to the WON Hall of Fame where I look at three categories, and the match has to either have a special feel for all three, excel in two, or be truly transcendent in one.

First category is just pure workrate. I think I've only ever given two 5s out for workrate alone: Davey Richards vs Shingo Takagi in DGUSA and Zack Sabre Jr. vs Roderick Strong at EVOLVE 45, the latter of which I still think is the cleanest, smoothest pro wrestling match I've ever seen.

Second category is the story, which is probably self explanatory. That usually goes hand-in-hand with workrate in a lot of ways, so it'd be disingenuous to say I've ever given ***** for story alone, but there's some matches like Okada/Shibata or Golden Lovers/Young Bucks that have transcendent stories and just happen to have high marks in the other categories as well. This category gets a boost if I notice something on rewatches that I previously missed, like how Shibata never went for a pinfall against Okada.

The last category is overall atmosphere. Perfect example is Samoa Joe vs Kenta Kobashi for having my favorite crowd ever in wrestling (and no commentary, which creates a really cool effect). Without that crowd, it's still great, but it's not a whole lot different than a lot of the top-level ROH stuff from that era. With the crowd taken into account, it's catapulted into a top 5 match all time for me.

Whew. I could post my full list of 5 star matches but this post is overly long already so I guess I'll only do it if anyone happens to be curious enough to ask.
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Apparently WWEs stock has been dropping since they decided to go ahead with Crown Jewel. Good!
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That was a really good segment between Rollins and Ambrose.

I think this feud is gonna be better than the first.
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RaidenGarai posted...

Apparently WWEs stock has been dropping since they decided to go ahead with Crown Jewel. Good!

The entire market is falling
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The rate at which it is dropping is proportionally much more than the market.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Also I want to see if somehow the lineage makes it back to men.

Not in this era where the only guy going 1 on 1 with any female is James Ellsworth.

Elias received Ric Flair's blessing in last night's promo to be The Man in the wake of Roman's unfortunate vacating, and he even defended it against the new Raw Jobber Champion!

The Man: Elias
The Woman: Becky Lynch
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