Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic - August 2018 Edition (2) - Wizbang is Wonderful!

(+) Yeah! (+)

3 secret hunters in a row, too.

This game not having basic features (ladder ban, tournament mode, in-game chat, replays) 4 years in is proof of Blizzard's incompetence. These people are fucking DUMB.
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Anyone here ever have this happen to them?

1. You draft an arena deck that either sucks, or you're just not interested in playing it.

2. You don't want to just retire it so you try and play through the games without really giving them any thought, just to get it out of the way.

3. All of a sudden you're 8-0.

This Shaman deck I'm playing isn't bad at all, but I have three quests on EU and this isn't helping to finish any of them. I've pretty much been on autopilot and I can't seem to lose, and I'm not a great player when I actively try so my autopilot skill level has to be below average.
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Not wanting to play arena? Of course. It's a garbage game mode.
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https://hsreplay.net/replay/6XtnDmotZNYbChM93hsdJZ

That board with AMS and he still got me down to 4. Fuck token druid.
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500 mage wins!!
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Congrats. I'll have 500 across every class combined pretty soon. Nowhere close to 500 in any individual one.
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Quest Rogue seriously needs to go, again. I said it when they made this dumbass card the first time but its just not fun to play against. This match this QR drew both Giggling, Valeera, Sonya, and both vanishes before I even saw my Keleseth.

Fun game.

https://hsreplay.net/replay/S4enbxifvnM9P3xaHmXNZa

This is fucking unreal. Of course I'm excited to try something new and draw both Sleepy Dragons even after keeping Oakheart in my opener. At NO POINT is skill factored in.
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Okay odd druid is trash. That deck in no way has the ability to overcome how I draw in this game.
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3 odd rogues in 4 games.

Your matchups change depending on what class you're playing. It's so hilariously obvious.
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4 odd rogues in 5 games. I played one per 30 games or so as mage.

This is more proof of what I'm talking about. Skill is specifically programmed out of this game.
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Posts in topic: 411
Posts I see on this page: 406, 406, 407

I sense a disturbance in the force.
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This is the first time I've seen this Ulti account. Is it new?

It took me a few posts to realize that it just wasn't someone else also complaining about the game.
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I dunno which one he was using.

I don't block his main but he usually reserves the worst of his posts for alts so I don't feel bad about blocking all of those.

Edit: ah it appears to be 'everything snob'. I don't even know where that name originates. I have 6 users ignored and they are all ulti alts.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

I dunno which one he was using.

I don't block his main but he usually reserves the worst of his posts for alts so I don't feel bad about blocking all of those.

I have a no-ulti policy. I started this when he started saying to sterilize anyone who think skill is a factor in Hearthstone. At a certain point its just not worth it. Made it even easier when he started lying about me being a Wiki abuser because he thought I was someone elses alt

In hearthstone content look at my deck.

### Kelemech
# Class: Paladin
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Raven
#
# 2x (1) Glow-Tron
# 2x (1) Righteous Protector
# 1x (2) Prince Keleseth
# 2x (3) Blood Knight
# 2x (3) Bronze Gatekeeper
# 2x (3) Nightmare Amalgam
# 2x (4) Annoy-o-Module
# 2x (4) Prismatic Lens
# 2x (4) Saronite Chain Gang
# 1x (4) Spellbreaker
# 2x (4) Truesilver Champion
# 2x (5) Mechano-Egg
# 2x (5) Wargear
# 1x (5) Zilliax
# 2x (6) Spikeridged Steed
# 1x (6) Val'anyr
# 1x (7) Kangor's Endless Army
# 1x (8) The Lich King
#
AAECAaToAgbyBcLOAp ziArfpAvH+AqCAAwzzBc8GiMcCm8sC48sCpfUC/PwC1v4C4f4CkYADzIED3oIDAA==
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone

I refuse to play meta so Ive spent my time refining this piece of garbage. It fun.

Oh bsm is indeed an awful matchup for secret hunter. You need to get rexar early and they need to get jaina late. It does depend on the list of the mage though and what type of tech they have. Like a list that runs Alanna has a huge boost in the matchup
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Crafted some unstable evolutions and started playing around with Tempo Shudderwock. I have all the cards except for corridor creepers (I subbed in Zola and Elise Trailblazer. Zola is a bit iffy, though. In theory she could copy a Shudderwock, in practice literally has not happened).

Man, I like this deck.

A whole lot of decks in the format just feel frustrating in certain matchups. Zoo feels like an auto-loss against odd rogue and odd warrior, for example. And then Odd Rogue runs out of steam against...literally anything remotely controlling. I was about to give up on this meta as kind of just a frustrating rock paper scissors.

But Tempo Shudderwock actually just feels pretty good in basically every matchup, like there's no matchup that really feels that bad. Against aggro the deck has a lot of tools (2x Tar Creeper, 2x Chain Gang, 2x Giggling Inventor, 2x MC Tech, 2x Lightning Storm, 2x Corpsetaker, 1x Zilliax, 1x Hagatha, 1x Lich King, 1x Al'Akir). It's pretty hard to rush face against this deck. But the deck also feels like it has a real gameplan against control. I almost never feel like "well I'm out of threats and drawing dead", I can go to fatigue against a control warrior and it's fine.

Giggling inventor is the one card I feel a little sketchy on. Like...it's good (but not gamebreaking) if it doesn't get hard countered, but if it walks into a Blood Knight that's often game over.

EDIT: ok fine, I guess Quest Rogue is a near unwinnable matchup, so there's that.
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It's really disappointing when I see there's been like 5 new posts in the thread, and then they're all Ulti rants. But this was a new alt I hadn't seen before, so hey, I actually got to read them this time.
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azuarc posted...

It's really disappointing when I see there's been like 5 new posts in the thread, and then they're all Ulti rants. But this was a new alt I hadn't seen before, so hey, I actually got to read them this time.

Hey! I'm not an Ulti rant :P
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Not with that attitude.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

I dunno which one he was using.

I don't block his main but he usually reserves the worst of his posts for alts so I don't feel bad about blocking all of those.

Edit: ah it appears to be 'everything snob'. I don't even know where that name originates. I have 6 users ignored and they are all ulti alts.

Back when maplejet was going full maplejet he kept calling me a everything snob, so I made it into an account name =)

You deal with people like maplejet or Zach by laughing at them 24/7.
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metroid composite posted...

Crafted some unstable evolutions and started playing around with Tempo Shudderwock. I have all the cards except for corridor creepers (I subbed in Zola and Elise Trailblazer. Zola is a bit iffy, though. In theory she could copy a Shudderwock, in practice literally has not happened).

Man, I like this deck.

A whole lot of decks in the format just feel frustrating in certain matchups. Zoo feels like an auto-loss against odd rogue and odd warrior, for example. And then Odd Rogue runs out of steam against...literally anything remotely controlling. I was about to give up on this meta as kind of just a frustrating rock paper scissors.

But Tempo Shudderwock actually just feels pretty good in basically every matchup, like there's no matchup that really feels that bad. Against aggro the deck has a lot of tools (2x Tar Creeper, 2x Chain Gang, 2x Giggling Inventor, 2x MC Tech, 2x Lightning Storm, 2x Corpsetaker, 1x Zilliax, 1x Hagatha, 1x Lich King, 1x Al'Akir). It's pretty hard to rush face against this deck. But the deck also feels like it has a real gameplan against control. I almost never feel like "well I'm out of threats and drawing dead", I can go to fatigue against a control warrior and it's fine.

Giggling inventor is the one card I feel a little sketchy on. Like...it's good (but not gamebreaking) if it doesn't get hard countered, but if it walks into a Blood Knight that's often game over.

EDIT: ok fine, I guess Quest Rogue is a near unwinnable matchup, so there's that.

Yeah the meta is just way too polarized now. Back in the day freeze mage beat certain decks and auto lost to control warrior. That was it. Now it feels like every class has a 90-10 or 10-90 matchup.

lmao Zach literally has a Harambe account name, is known for trolling, and complains about trolling. That is comedy.
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Got to live the dream and played against Heal Zoo. Hero power and Zilliax kill everything, then Bio Project into an early Oakheart, double Sleepy Dragon. Hadronox, Naturalize, both Witching Hour and both Cube in hand. Dude had no chance.

This meta is dumb.
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Still wish Blizzard had done something to shake up the meta. Giggling Inventor would have been the easy pick but I wonder if theres another culprit hiding that would have been a good candidate.

ColZach posted...

Still wish Blizzard had done something to shake up the meta. Giggling Inventor would have been the easy pick but I wonder if theres another culprit hiding that would have been a good candidate.

All the deathrattle stuff shaked up the meta for a while at launch. Made it really hard to play board clear centric decks.
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Deathrattle stuff? Can you elaborate?

So I managed to beat that dumb priest deck by leaving Lyra alive and killing Gilded Drakes over and over. Malygos, Velen, Statue, and Cloning Gallery all got milled. Legit cant think of another way to do it.

I *still* almost lost because of a bunch of RNGd Mind Blasts.
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I still don't know exactly what that Priest deck does. I faced it about 5 times on my way to legend and beat it by turn 7 every single time.
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davidponte posted...

I still don't know exactly what that Priest deck does. I faced it about 5 times on my way to legend and beat it by turn 7 every single time.

Cloning Gallery OTK
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https://twitter.com/ultimaterializr/status/1043937772187340801?s=21

On top of that, I drew no ramp to get Oakheart out early, cards 28 and 29 were Naturalize, and my last card was Hadronox. On top of seeing a direct counterpick deck.

Hearthstone is flat-out not a game based in skill. Never has been, will be, or can be while trash like this exists.
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UItimaterializer posted...

So I managed to beat that dumb priest deck by leaving Lyra alive and killing Gilded Drakes over and over. Malygos, Velen, Statue, and Cloning Gallery all got milled. Legit cant think of another way to do it.

Eh, I don't find that deck all that hard to beat at least not the poorly piloted ones I see around rank 3-5. Apply pressure, keep your health up, try to force them to pick removal with Shadow Visions. Don't let them keep combo pieces on the board.

Most of the time they can only deal 20 damage in a turn (and then you heal back up above 20 and you win). 40 isn't impossible, but it requires like...Cloning gallery into double radiant+Maly+Velen with two mind blasts in hand. Or Diamond spellstone reviving Radiant+Mally+Velen with two mind blasts in hand. (Note that this isn't the old version of diamond spellstone OTK that only ran like...four different creatures in the deck, so it was always guaranteed to hit Velen+Maly+Radiant. That version also ran vivid nightmare to set up double Velen; the new version of the deck does not).

So...on the whole I like playing against this version a lot more than the old version. It's a lot more value oriented, and trades that for usually not being able to deal more than 20 in a turn. I can deal with 20 damage.
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And of course next game I draw none of my 9 drops until the last 10 cards.

This is not a skill game. One HUNDRED percent luck based every single time.
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ColZach posted...

Still wish Blizzard had done something to shake up the meta. Giggling Inventor would have been the easy pick but I wonder if theres another culprit hiding that would have been a good candidate.

Cube is far and away the card I want to see changed the most.

As far as Cloning Gallery goes, I haven't played against it nor am I super familiar with the construction of it, but isn't that deck way more susceptible to getting fucked by a bad draw than pretty much any other deck out there? Feels like there would be games where it's turn two or three and you're looking at your hand thinking, well, I literally can't win this game.
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Its bo accident why I love chess.
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The poker comparison is why its so easy to debunk the no-skill hearthstone crowd among other things. The same people end up winning at poker time and time again just like HS pros win time and time again.

Tic tac toe definitely has skill stratums. It's just that you can memorize the...9 different trap configurations, so it has a skill ceiling.
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ColZach posted...

The poker comparison is why its so easy to debunk the no-skill hearthstone crowd among other things. The same people end up winning at poker time and time again just like HS pros win time and time again.

Hearthstone is not a skill game. Period. End of story.

My Oakheart paired with my shitty draws just cost me ANOTHER game, when any good luck anywhere guaranteed me a win. That has nothing to do with skill level. It is 100% bad luck and bad draws, as per the norm. If Sleepy Dragon gets pulled instead of Ysera, I win. If the dual eot effect gets pulled so it doesnt matter, I win. Had I not drawn Sleepy Dragon early LIKE ALWAYS, I probably tutor one when needed. This stuff existing at all is why I *will* be proven right historically. Hearthstone is already seen as an RNG no-skill POS by gamers, but now streamers are ready to hop over to Artifact. Hearthstone is done.

Poker doesnt debunk anything, because you can actually see people and make reads. Not that youre remotely good enough at either one to know this. I would play poker heads up with a no-name scrub level player like you for a million dollars any day. Not that you could afford it.
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Different game from earlier today: https://twitter.com/ultimaterializr/status/1044082087274393601?s=21

You cannot make up how bad these draws are, but the usual trolling crowd sees this junk and thinks skill is a factor somehow. It CLEARLY is not.
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UItimaterializer posted...

Poker doesnt debunk anything, because you can actually see people and make reads.

This is the wrong answer.

The correct answer is "because in poker you can bluff".

Your 'see people and make reads' completely fails to explain why pros are good at Online Poker.

In hearthstone (with limited notable exceptions such as representing Hunter secrets in specific ways) you cannot bluff to cause your opponent to forfeit away a winning position. You either have the cards necessary or you don't.

Now this still doesn't prove anything by itself because skill in hearthstone manifests in other ways but it's a good bit closer to a correct answer than the one you went with.

And if you feel screwed by draw order then play a better deck or mulligan better.
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I mean, you can definitely bluff in hearthstone too even outside of secrets. Act like you have a board clear when you don't. (More effective at high level play where people will play around that stuff). You see it occasionally in tournaments.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

UItimaterializer posted...

Poker doesnt debunk anything, because you can actually see people and make reads.

This is the wrong answer.

The correct answer is "because in poker you can bluff".

Your 'see people and make reads' completely fails to explain why pros are good at Online Poker.

In hearthstone (with limited notable exceptions such as representing Hunter secrets in specific ways) you cannot bluff to cause your opponent to forfeit away a winning position. You either have the cards necessary or you don't.

Now this still doesn't prove anything by itself because skill in hearthstone manifests in other ways but it's a good bit closer to a correct answer than the one you went with.

And if you feel screwed by draw order then play a better deck or mulligan better.

I think the bigger takeaway here is Ulti thinks you cant read people in Hearthstone, which is probably why he insists theres no skill. He never takes the time to analyze his opponents play and what he could have in his hand.

Also for the record you can bluff your opponent, its just really cumbersome in Hearthstone.

Reads in poker are completely different than "reads" in hearthstone. Tbh unless you are really good with catching onto body and facial tells most poker reads are done through predicting a players range and betting to that knowledge you gain over several hands. You gain more and more info on your opponent in poker the longer you are at a table and you give up more of yourself as well. Part of the game is maximizing the first and minimizing the latter.

You don't have this in hs. Yeah you can make educated guesses on cards in hand or hold ones that might be good in situations but you are not really playing to the mentality of the player like in poker.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

UItimaterializer posted...

Poker doesnt debunk anything, because you can actually see people and make reads.

This is the wrong answer.

The correct answer is "because in poker you can bluff".

Your 'see people and make reads' completely fails to explain why pros are good at Online Poker.

In hearthstone (with limited notable exceptions such as representing Hunter secrets in specific ways) you cannot bluff to cause your opponent to forfeit away a winning position. You either have the cards necessary or you don't.

Now this still doesn't prove anything by itself because skill in hearthstone manifests in other ways but it's a good bit closer to a correct answer than the one you went with.

And if you feel screwed by draw order then play a better deck or mulligan better.

That last sentence is so laughably fucking stupid its unreal.

https://twitter.com/ultimaterializr/status/1044567864303390720?s=21

Have you not been reading my posts for two years? It. Does. Not. Matter. What deck I play or how I mull. My draws are almost always laughably bad and Im always looking at people drawing everything on cue. Even then my win rate is in the 53-58% range, which is a miracle given the insane handicap this game forces people to play with. Its also proof that I am legitimate better than 99% of the people Im playing against, but Hearthstone doesnt reward skill.

Name the deck. I guarantee you bad draws, matchups, or RNG will be against me in most games. Im the guy who had 17 games in a row of Spiteful Summoner being turned off from drawing both UI first. Im the guy who had to cut a Possessed Lackey because I literally *always* drew both Voidlords first. Im the guy who had streaks of 17 and 13 hits from Fledgling in a row not find Windfury. Im the guy who drew Frost Lich Jaina on curve 11% of the time over 600 games. Im the guy who is now sitting here on odd druid game after game drawing *both* Sleepy Dragons.

Seriously, name the deck outside of warrior/warlock/mage where I have gold portraits. Ill play 30 games as a sample size with replays or screenshots. My draws are 100% impossibly bad, and I usually win anyway. Imagine how good I would rank if I had streamer luck.
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Oh and you can absolutely bluff and make reads in Hearthstone. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong or terrible at the game. Why do you think hand tracking exists?

My point is these skills dont *matter*. The game is designed to not factor into skill into any result. Chrono and dowolf should legit have 90% win rates, but they, like all players, are playing with the Hearthstone handicap.

I am literally praying Artifact murders this game.
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Okay I have to share this one.

https://twitter.com/ultimaterializr/status/1044583183176499200?s=21

Played this guy three times in a row and went 3-0. This was how game 3 ended.

He played Keleseth on turn 1 or 2 in all three games. This was balanced by him having double Soulfire for lethal TWICE, but one discarded the other. Twice.

I clearly did this with my SUPERIOR SKILL LEVEL.
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https://twitter.com/ultimaterializr/status/1044591562943008768?s=21

My next two draws were Ysera and Oakheart.

Imagine actually believing this has anything to do with deck choice or skill level.
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Whoa look at Ulti being unhappy playing a tier 6 deck D:
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VeryInsane posted...

Whoa look at Ulti being unhappy playing a tier 6 deck D:

No way this is tier 6. Wins way too often and counters way too many things.

That or people flat-out are not playing this enough to get stats on it.
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Dumbass shaman thought rnging into Nozdormu and Tyrantus would work. Cube for double Ysera and 5 board wipes in a row, bitch.

Outskilled the fuck out of this clown.
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