Current Events > Kotaku: Inside The Culture Of Sexism At Riot Games

(+) Yeah! (+)

The_Scarecrow posted...

Ive only heard about this very recently but after a quick google search, it looks like a bunch of others such as ESPN and US Gamer have reported on this. However, they both linked back to Kotaku and I wouldnt be surprised if the other sites did as well.

I'd rather link to the site that did the hard work when possible.

The_Scarecrow posted...

I would just be careful about linking to Kotaku again in the future so that you dont get most of the users, such as myself, negating legitimate discussion to slam Kotaku.

I really don't care. That's on you guys more than me.
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I'm so burned out, I can't even begin to care anymore. I don't dispute the claims in the article, they're probably at least partially true.

If Riot wants a "bro culture" frat work environment, or whatever that is, then so be it. If they're doing something illegal, hopefully they'll be punished for it appropriately. Otherwise, they can do what they want and the people who care about that kind of thing may refrain from buying their products.

It sucks for the women involved, but hopefully they can find work at another studio that's more into inclusivity.
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Darmik posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

Ive only heard about this very recently but after a quick google search, it looks like a bunch of others such as ESPN and US Gamer have reported on this. However, they both linked back to Kotaku and I wouldnt be surprised if the other sites did as well.

I'd rather link to the site that did the hard work when possible.

The_Scarecrow posted...

I would just be careful about linking to Kotaku again in the future so that you dont get most of the users, such as myself, negating legitimate discussion to slam Kotaku.

I really don't care. That's on you guys more than me.

Fair enough.
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YourDrunkFather posted...

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The way I see it if someone wants to dismiss this story instantly because it's from Kotaku I really doubt they're the kind of person who cares about how women are treated in the video game industry anyway. Never mind having an actual conversation about it.

So if they want to come in here with drive-by shitposts it doesn't bother me. All that's doing is keeping the topic bumped for people who might care.
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Darmik posted...

I really don't care. That's on you guys more than me.

but think of all the fruitful discussion you're missing out on by not capitulating to people who literally soil themselves when they see the word "kotaku"
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If he walked into a meeting with no women hed just fart on someones face.

I don't care if I am getting paid, if someone's farts on me, we are coming to blows. And I saw that as peaceful man.
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Frolex posted...

Darmik posted...

I really don't care. That's on you guys more than me.

but think of all the fruitful discussion you're missing out on by not capitulating to people who literally soil themselves when they see the word "kotaku"

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there are sadly a lot of sexist people on CE who dont see a problem with this
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Lot of former employees are concurring with the article.

Could be a sign of things to come?
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Holy shit lol... Why is the entire first page quoting Kotaku and fake news? This story was corroborated by a shitload of former employees lol, including guys like Scarizard, who was one of the most prominent names in Riot before he left.

This shit's real. Why would you guys expect more from Riot? It's pretty obvious how they like to be run and what kind of people like applying to them
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JFC. The original source from Riot likely went to Kotaku because they have a reputation of actually writing about sexism. Not a lot of gaming outlets do that. And guys, like Darmik said, this isn't some opinion piece where they criticize games for being sexist/racist/etc, it's an heavily corroborated piece of investigative journalism. Keep in mind, not only are there upwards of 30 independent sources confirming the story of Lacy, they would also have gotten to read the piece to verify that they weren't misquoted or anything like that. Hell, Kotaku or not, pieces like this are much close to actual journalism than all the reviews and reports of rumors that usually goes on.

Additionally, this is significant because Riot Games go to great lengths to try and portray themselves as progressive (or SJW, if you're into invectives). That corporate cultures like this exist in the industry is no surprise, although it should be made public more. That a company such as Riot has a culture like this is more remarkable.
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Kotaku or not, I don't believe the story itself should be ignored on auto-pilot just because of the name alone.
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scar the 1 posted...

JFC. The original source from Riot likely went to Kotaku because they have a reputation of actually writing about sexism. Not a lot of gaming outlets do that. And guys, like Darmik said, this isn't some opinion piece where they criticize games for being sexist/racist/etc, it's an heavily corroborated piece of investigative journalism. Keep in mind, not only are there upwards of 30 independent sources confirming the story of Lacy, they would also have gotten to read the piece to verify that they weren't misquoted or anything like that. Hell, Kotaku or not, pieces like this are much close to actual journalism than all the reviews and reports of rumors that usually goes on.

This is a bunch of garbage. A piece of news is only as credible as its writers and the interests it serves. Neither of which is credible on Kotaku. They spend the vast majority of their time writing garbage articles that are heavily weighted to push some bizarre SJW agenda and you want people to take them seriously because you claim this particular story is well done? Even though it is covering the exact subject that they have written countless shit articles about in the past? Of which they have shown overwhelming bias to the point where they are widely mocked for it?

Let me post the definition of credibility since we have some people struggling to understand what that word means:

Credibility:

the quality of being trusted and believed in.

While I'm at it, let's look at another term that Kotaku fails to live up to:

Reliability:

the quality of being trustworthy or of performing consistently well.

So they spent 5 months writing and chasing corroboration for for some dubious source? Besides, this kinda shit's pretty easy to prove. If it were a smear piece then Riot's response is pretty simple, that they're lying with bad intent. But instead they're silent while a bunch of former Riot employees that were prominent are speaking up.

I don't really care about Kotaku's own credibility, but when there's this much smoke, there's fire. Same shit happened for the dubious piece about Channel Awesome until it turned out a lot of them were completely real, with several subjects in question being foolishly revealed by some of the perpetrators.
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Jason Schreier is probably the most reliable video game journalist there is and he works for Kotaku.

There is no other site that is more reliable for these stories that involve developers and stuff that happens behind the scenes.
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Darmik no matter how much you try CE isn't going to become ResetEra light.

TheShadowViper posted...

This is a bunch of garbage. A piece of news is only as credible as its writers and the interests it serves. Neither of which is credible on Kotaku. They spend the vast majority of their time writing garbage articles that are heavily weighted to push some bizarre SJW agenda and you want people to take them seriously because you claim this particular story is well done? Even though it is covering the exact subject that they have written countless s*** articles about in the past? Of which they have shown overwhelming bias to the point where they are widely mocked for it?

Let me post the definition of credibility since we have some people struggling to understand what that word means:

I get that you're being arrogant because it's a habit online, but you're wrong. Case in point, the amount of former and current Rioters who bump this piece. That adds credibility to it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/95elic/inside_the_culture_of_sexism_at_riot_games/

Some former Rioters were bumping this article btw (which lends more credibility imo):

Iron Stylus: https://twitter.com/Iron_Stylus/status/1026918454824034306

MiniWhite Rabbit: https://twitter.com/MiniWhiteRabbit/status/1026918229296308225 (TW:hers is particularly brutal to read)

Scarizard was liking a few of these tweets as well Edit: https://twitter.com/ScarizardPlays/status/1026919535960444928

Ricardo Luis tweeted about it as well (I know I can't link it tho)

Mirhi: https://twitter.com/FFMirhi/status/1026916236083359745 (the power rankings guy)

Jessie Perlo: https://twitter.com/Gogo_Usagi/status/1026908342159962112

Riot Mori Grl: https://twitter.com/guldeuxchats/status/1026910053272498176

Devon Giehl: https://twitter.com/devongiehl/status/1026912574221111298

Katie Chironis: https://twitter.com/kchironis/status/1026924235552251904

EmeraldSatyr: https://twitter.com/EmeraldSatyr/status/1026911041593253889

Quickshot: https://twitter.com/RiotQuickshot/status/1026937738086502403?s=19

Draggles is sharing a lot of tweets like /u/urclades stated

Jes Negron (in the article): https://twitter.com/JesNx/status/1026940602133434369

Riot Tiza: https://twitter.com/RiotTiza/status/1026938535058665472

Alex Manisier: https://twitter.com/alexmanisier/status/1026948097388109824

Riot TinyBun: https://twitter.com/RiotTinyBun/status/1026934845195182080

Also, while not rioters themselves, this a thread of a couple people known in the community talking about some inappropriate Rioters: https://twitter.com/ashelia/status/1026916553252462592

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Darmik posted...

If he walked into a meeting with no women hed just fart on someones face.

Nani?!
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Kotaku and Polygon. God I wish developers and publishers would all blacklist those trash sites and trash people they have working there so they go under. Don't grant interviews, don't provide preview and review materials to them, don't invite them to industry events, etc.
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It's interesting also to note this specific idea of what a "core gamer" is, and how it reportedly seems to be used at Riot to exclude women.

Then juxtapose that with the whole call from gaming media that the "gamer" identity should be done away with.

Seems like there's a crumb of a point somewhere in all that, no?
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scar the 1 posted...

TheShadowViper posted...

This is a bunch of garbage. A piece of news is only as credible as its writers and the interests it serves. Neither of which is credible on Kotaku. They spend the vast majority of their time writing garbage articles that are heavily weighted to push some bizarre SJW agenda and you want people to take them seriously because you claim this particular story is well done? Even though it is covering the exact subject that they have written countless s*** articles about in the past? Of which they have shown overwhelming bias to the point where they are widely mocked for it?

Let me post the definition of credibility since we have some people struggling to understand what that word means:

I get that you're being arrogant because it's a habit online, but you're wrong. Case in point, the amount of former and current Rioters who bump this piece. That adds credibility to it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/95elic/inside_the_culture_of_sexism_at_riot_games/

Some former Rioters were bumping this article btw (which lends more credibility imo):

Iron Stylus: https://twitter.com/Iron_Stylus/status/1026918454824034306

MiniWhite Rabbit: https://twitter.com/MiniWhiteRabbit/status/1026918229296308225 (TW:hers is particularly brutal to read)

Scarizard was liking a few of these tweets as well Edit: https://twitter.com/ScarizardPlays/status/1026919535960444928

Ricardo Luis tweeted about it as well (I know I can't link it tho)

Mirhi: https://twitter.com/FFMirhi/status/1026916236083359745 (the power rankings guy)

Jessie Perlo: https://twitter.com/Gogo_Usagi/status/1026908342159962112

Riot Mori Grl: https://twitter.com/guldeuxchats/status/1026910053272498176

Devon Giehl: https://twitter.com/devongiehl/status/1026912574221111298

Katie Chironis: https://twitter.com/kchironis/status/1026924235552251904

EmeraldSatyr: https://twitter.com/EmeraldSatyr/status/1026911041593253889

Quickshot: https://twitter.com/RiotQuickshot/status/1026937738086502403?s=19

Draggles is sharing a lot of tweets like /u/urclades stated

Jes Negron (in the article): https://twitter.com/JesNx/status/1026940602133434369

Riot Tiza: https://twitter.com/RiotTiza/status/1026938535058665472

Alex Manisier: https://twitter.com/alexmanisier/status/1026948097388109824

Riot TinyBun: https://twitter.com/RiotTinyBun/status/1026934845195182080

Also, while not rioters themselves, this a thread of a couple people known in the community talking about some inappropriate Rioters: https://twitter.com/ashelia/status/1026916553252462592

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The vast majority of gamers are men, they have always been men and I am sure will always be men. Women are simply not as interested in gaming as men are and I'm not counting cell phone games which statistics use to give a false impression. When women dominate an industry like fashion because women are much more into fashion then men no one bats an eye. Why is it wrong for men to dominate an industry like video games?
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Even more furthermore, if you hate Kotaku, this piece is even more important. Show them that you take it seriously when they actually show up and do serious shit, and maybe they'll do more of that. This kind of reporting is actually really important.
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Oh I forgot.

Lol Kotaku.
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Darmik posted...

I really doubt they're the kind of person who cares about how women are treated in the video game industry anyway.

Implying you actually care and aren't just virtue signaling.

The guy who routinely goes out of his way to exonerate and defend faceless mega corporations from the criticism of consumers is now pretending to be all PC and virtuous

Fucking lol.
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Omega Hunter posted...

The vast majority of gamers are men, they have always been men and I am sure will always be men. Women are simply not as interested in gaming as men are and I'm not counting cell phone games which statistics use to give a false impression. When women dominate an industry like fashion because women are much more into fashion then men no one bats an eye. Why is it wrong for men to dominate an industry like video games?

All this, and you literally didnt address the article in anyway...yikes
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100+ posts in, no one on team "lol kotaku" can find holes in the article...sexism is a helluva drug
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FrisbeeDude posted...

100+ posts in, no one on team "lol kotaku" can find holes in the article...sexism is a helluva drug

CE is full of narcissistic tendencies, I'm not even surprised.
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Omega Hunter posted...

The vast majority of gamers are men, they have always been men and I am sure will always be men. Women are simply not as interested in gaming as men are and I'm not counting cell phone games which statistics use to give a false impression. When women dominate an industry like fashion because women are much more into fashion then men no one bats an eye. Why is it wrong for men to dominate an industry like video games?

You ever see a post so bad you don't know where to start tearing it apart?

1) This topic is not about women wanting to be "a particular percentage" of working in a video game industry. It's about women already working in the industry complaining of a particular company being a toxic workplace.

2) Discounting women as being an insignificant portion of video game playing people and doing so via exclusion of mobile gaming is a shameful way to prop an argument and entirely disingenuous towards the issue.

3) Women don't actually run the fashion industry. They tend to be major faces, but the major companies are still largely owned and operated by men.
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CyricZ posted...

2) Discounting women as being an insignificant portion of video game playing people and doing so via exclusion of mobile gaming is a shameful way to prop an argument and entirely disingenuous towards the issue.

Only you would get this butthurt over a fact

Sites like Kotaku use the mobile market to prop up their shit rhetoric by parroting the "50 percent of gamers are women" myth. That only exists due to the mobile market

Only you would think someone who plays games routinely for long periods of time should have the same title as someone who occasionally pulls out their phone to play farmville or candy crush for a few minutes
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ZombiePelican posted...

Sites like Kotaku use the mobile market to prop up their s*** rhetoric by parroting the "50 percent of gamers are women" myth. That only exists due to the mobile market

From the actual article in the OP:

League of Legends playerbase, which in 2012 was over 90 percent male,

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scar the 1 posted...

ZombiePelican posted...

Sites like Kotaku use the mobile market to prop up their s*** rhetoric by parroting the "50 percent of gamers are women" myth. That only exists due to the mobile market

From the actual article in the OP:

League of Legends playerbase, which in 2012 was over 90 percent male,

This has to do with the article....how?
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FrisbeeDude posted...

scar the 1 posted...

ZombiePelican posted...

Sites like Kotaku use the mobile market to prop up their s*** rhetoric by parroting the "50 percent of gamers are women" myth. That only exists due to the mobile market

From the actual article in the OP:

League of Legends playerbase, which in 2012 was over 90 percent male,

This has to do with the article....how?

Are you asking me or ZP?
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CyricZ posted...

1) This topic is not about women wanting to be "a particular percentage" of working in a video game industry. It's about women already working in the industry complaining of a particular company being a toxic workplace.

Point just went over ur head.

CyricZ posted...

2) Discounting women as being an insignificant portion of video game playing people and doing so via exclusion of mobile gaming is a shameful way to prop an argument and entirely disingenuous towards the issue.

There is nothing shameful about it, and I think it's s perfectly relevant point. If I as a man get a job working as a child daycare worker an industry overwhelmingly dominated by women, I am going to be faced with second guessing and skepticism and an uphill battle. People are going to say i dont want that man over there watching my baby, daycare businesses are going to discriminate agsinst hiring me. I could cry about sexism or I can realize men are not normally daycare workers and I am going to face challenges because of that as a result, that's just reality.

CyricZ posted...

3) Women don't actually run the fashion industry. They tend to be major faces, but the major companies are still largely owned and operated by men.

Yea ur right bad example, men run damn near every industry because men are better at running things. Makes it hard to find examples.
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ZombiePelican posted...

Only you would think someone who plays games routinely for long periods of time should have the same title as someone who occasionally pulls out their phone to play farmville or candy crush for a few minutes

Hahahahahahahahsha.

I mean I am 32 years old and have had like 7 serious relationships and many more female family members I have tried to get into gaming. Women just aren't interested by and large, they dont want to sit in front of a monitor or tv and play games for 4 hours a day. They usually not only arent interested they genuinely can't understand the appeal.

Video games are for men, not because of sexism but because men are the ones who love video games. I hate that it is considered so politically incorrect to point out that men and women are NOT the same they do NOT have the same interests and they do NOT make the same choices.
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Omega Hunter posted...

Video games are for men, not because of sexism but because men are the ones who love video games. I hate that it is considered so politically incorrect to point out that men and women are NOT the same they do NOT have the same interests and they do NOT make the same choices.

Isn't it weird how, before the middle of the '90s, video games weren't for men but then all of a sudden they were?
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Here's a more legitimate defense of the article: corroboration via official twitter accounts of former employees who are not merely 'anonymous sources'.

What hurt this article's credibility for me was the fact that they named zero of the current/former employees they interviewed. Anonymous sources are always a hard sell, especially for an outlet that is already the subject of criticism/skepticism.

Article itself can't be refuted since sources are anonymous and a 'refutation' would require investigation of them and verification that they're legitimate. I would not put it past anyone to make up sources; my trust that anonymous sources are real is dependent on my trust in the author.

But they've got people backing them up. IDK how they managed to put together this piece without talking to any of these people who clearly would've been 100% down with being named. Probably illustrative of why Kotaku's reputation is poor, but a broken clock is right twice a day and this is their time.

Gonna requote the long list:

A Novel Idea posted...

Some former Rioters were bumping this article btw (which lends more credibility imo):

Iron Stylus: https://twitter.com/Iron_Stylus/status/1026918454824034306

MiniWhite Rabbit: https://twitter.com/MiniWhiteRabbit/status/1026918229296308225 (TW:hers is particularly brutal to read)

Scarizard was liking a few of these tweets as well Edit: https://twitter.com/ScarizardPlays/status/1026919535960444928

Ricardo Luis tweeted about it as well (I know I can't link it tho)

Mirhi: https://twitter.com/FFMirhi/status/1026916236083359745 (the power rankings guy)

Jessie Perlo: https://twitter.com/Gogo_Usagi/status/1026908342159962112

Riot Mori Grl: https://twitter.com/guldeuxchats/status/1026910053272498176

Devon Giehl: https://twitter.com/devongiehl/status/1026912574221111298

Katie Chironis: https://twitter.com/kchironis/status/1026924235552251904

EmeraldSatyr: https://twitter.com/EmeraldSatyr/status/1026911041593253889

Quickshot: https://twitter.com/RiotQuickshot/status/1026937738086502403?s=19

Draggles is sharing a lot of tweets like /u/urclades stated

Jes Negron (in the article): https://twitter.com/JesNx/status/1026940602133434369

Riot Tiza: https://twitter.com/RiotTiza/status/1026938535058665472

Alex Manisier: https://twitter.com/alexmanisier/status/1026948097388109824

Riot TinyBun: https://twitter.com/RiotTinyBun/status/1026934845195182080

Also, while not rioters themselves, this a thread of a couple people known in the community talking about some inappropriate Rioters: https://twitter.com/ashelia/status/1026916553252462592

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Farting on peoples faces...

lol, that's awesome!
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it's about ethics in workplace sexism
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Darkman124 posted...

What hurt this article's credibility for me was the fact that they named zero of the current/former employees they interviewed. Anonymous sources are always a hard sell, especially for an outlet that is already the subject of criticism/skepticism.

I agree, it's of course more dubious when the sources are anonymous. However, when the sources are many and independent, and they all corroborate the same thing, there's something there. This was what held up a lot of the #metoo stories - similar details about intimate behavior from offenders from several, independent accounts. Probably wouldn't have gone off the way it did without also people going public, but I just wanna emphasize that anonymous sources aren't useless.
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I think the key is having at least one non-anonymous source, so that no one can say "They just made this up, there are no sources, it's fake news."

Because I think that is the first page's reaction.

You needn't name them all, but naming one means not just having your own credibility backing the story.

Having Kristen Fuller backing up the story means there's no denying its authenticity.
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Yeah, without any named sources it's just the dependability of the outlet. And I agree that no one should have to depend completely on the name of a reporter, ideally.
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Darmik posted...

Every few months, she said, a male boss of hers would comment in public meetings about how her kids and husband must really miss her while she was at work

how the fuck is this sexism

BlkPopeIseem posted...

Darmik posted...

Every few months, she said, a male boss of hers would comment in public meetings about how her kids and husband must really miss her while she was at work

how the fuck is this sexism

Usually these kinds of comments are often directed at mothers and rarely at fathers.
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scar the 1 posted...

BlkPopeIseem posted...

Darmik posted...

Every few months, she said, a male boss of hers would comment in public meetings about how her kids and husband must really miss her while she was at work

how the fuck is this sexism

Usually these kinds of comments are often directed at mothers and rarely at fathers.

At face value this means nothing. Interpreting that or any similar comment with the mindset there is a sexist atmosphere against you will always result the same. I'm not saying there aren't sexist comments made. These people need thicker skin holy shit. The real sexism is not getting leadership roles or credit for your own work. Focus on that.

Omega Hunter posted...

Point just went over ur head.

I checked back through the topic to see if you had already posted and were following up on a previous thought, but no, this is your first contribution. Please explain your point. I apologize if I'm not picking up what you're putting down. Please explain what the gender distribution of people who play video games has to do with this article on workplace culture.

Omega Hunter posted...

There is nothing shameful about it, and I think it's s perfectly relevant point. If I as a man get a job working as a child daycare worker an industry overwhelmingly dominated by women, I am going to be faced with second guessing and skepticism and an uphill battle. People are going to say i dont want that man over there watching my baby, daycare businesses are going to discriminate agsinst hiring me. I could cry about sexism or I can realize men are not normally daycare workers and I am going to face challenges because of that as a result, that's just reality.

In my mind, "that's just the way it is" is not an acceptable excuse for it. The discrimination of male childcare workers is also disgusting and needs to have light shone on it so it can stop. This is not a game of which gender has it worse. This is a study of one company's culture.

I guess what I'm asking is: what are you actually contributing to this topic via your comment?
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A lot of people are mad that some CEmen are dismissive towards the article, but I'm not even sure what we are supposed to do about any of this. I read the article and I don't have a problem with it being from Kotaku. Riot Games does appear to have acted in a sexist manner towards some employees. That is unfortunate. But now what? Competitive gamers will not stop playing a game just because some employees had a bad experience and then quit. Quitting is what you're supposed to do when you work for people who don't appreciate your work and refuse to resolve your concerns about mistreatment. Since we don't work there, we could decide to simply not buy Riot Games' products. (I'm not making any promises, though.)
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Lorenzo_2003 posted...

A lot of people are mad that some CEmen are dismissive towards the article, but I'm not even sure what we are supposed to do about any of this. I read the article and I don't have a problem with it being from Kotaku. Riot Games does appear to have acted in a sexist manner towards some employees. That is unfortunate. But now what? Competitive gamers will not stop playing a game just because some employees had a bad experience and then quit. Quitting is what you're supposed to do when you work for people who don't appreciate your work and refuse to resolve your concerns about mistreatment. Since we don't work there, we could decide to simply not buy Riot Games' products. (I'm not making any promises, though.)

There are a couple of things having this light shone can do:

1) It may lead to a decrease in player base. There are other MOBAs out there.

2) For people who may be looking at Riot as an employment opportunity, this could be a stark warning against working there, regardless of your gender.

3) And of course, this is bad press for Riot. If the previous two lead to an economic downturn in the company, then the executives will want to implement better practices and try to change the culture.

Of course, it has to really get around, and not just on Kotaku.
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CyricZ posted...

2) For people who may be looking at Riot as an employment opportunity, this could be a stark warning against working there, regardless of your gender.

You brought up good points and number 2 reminded me of my own experiences. Several people, who wanted to apply at places I worked for, asked me about these employers, so I gave them the pros and cons. Forewarned is forearmed, as they say.
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