Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 451: Clocks are banned so it's no longer Vader Time

(+) Yeah! (+)

Jakyl25 posted...

Someone should do a case study on Vinces mind purely based on traits he gives his babyfaces versus traits he assigns to heels

We definitely know Vince believes dropping poop on people is the epitome of justice
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ScareChan posted...

specifically after an ejection you cant create a foul at all in basketball. See end of game 1 of the nba finals this year

and dolph was like passed out at the time so it can be hard to keep peanlizing him on that

It makes more sense I think for him to get fined for it in kayfabe

but a second dq makes sense too, either one really

The ref should have absolutely called for a second DQ after McIntyre pulled Seth out of the ring for the second part of the beatdown, if you consider that the ref's job includes the safety of Seth Rollins. If Drew's interference becomes a hindrance to Dolph, he will stop attacking Seth.
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Lopen posted...

I'll be the bad guy and say I would probably be trolling it if I were there because of the poor card placement and not caring a lick about Rollins vs Ziggler as a build even if they can work.

However I didn't even watch the PPV so I mean, yeah I'm of the feeling that you should be doing something better with your time if that's how you're approaching the show. Speak with your wallets not stupid chanting.

Yeah this match had 0 heat, it was a match guaranteed to go long and went on last (not sins by themselves but again, no heat), and while it was well worked....that's not enough anymore in WWE and this match was of a type where you couldn't do a WWE lazy false finish fest to keep the crowd guessing.

They have an embarassment of riches to the point where I am not certain Ziggler is even a top 20 worker in this company.

This match was destined to be ill-received and I only regret that the crowd made it all about them because I think if they didn't we would just be talking about the big wet fart that this match was and puzzling over AJ Styles not closing out the show.
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My personal thought on why AJ/Rusev didn't close the show is that their feud didn't seem as hot going on. Even with just reading the reviews and watching the video package, Rollins/Dolph seemed like they had a lot more there than they did with AJ/Rusev.
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I think a key point people keep overlooking is that they gave us three hours of mediocrity in a PPV and then only one hour at the end where it was actually good and entertaining stuff. I don't blame a crowd for becoming restless for that. Sure, you can give us a weird Randy Orton return, or Kevin Owens taking an unnecessary Mick Foley fall, but aside from a few moments, this show was not good and when you give us a lame Roman match with no heat for the crowd to get comfortable dumping on the match and the show for, of course they're going to keep goofing around.

Basically, if WWE gave them a better show, this would have been avoided.
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This show in general was plagued by an utter lack of heat top to bottom.

None of these feuds were hot. Not a single one. Owens/Braun was past its expiration date, Rusev/Styles was a nothing feud. Bludgeons/Hell No and Ziggler/Rollins are just getting going and neither was particularly intriguing. Reigns/Lashley has 0 heat despite a lot of effort and time invested. Nak/Hardy barely qualified as a feud at all.

Just a nothing show made somewhat memorable by a really stupid crowd gimmick.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Its really the only thing I can think of where audience members intend to go to the event to be antagonistic to the performance not as protest, but as their way of enjoying the show.

I think a lot of it is protest, tbh, certainly a mix of those two. I look at things like chanting "Husky Harris" when Bray made his debut for this. That happened because those people don't really like WWE.

When WWE does things like, for instance, manipulate credit for Connor the Crusher and turn it into a Bryan thing and not a Justin Roberts thing, when Steph makes that philanthropy tweet, when WWE just blatantly lies about attendance/viewership/Raw's status as the longest-running show, when you have things like the Punk podcast exposing the depth of the depravity backstage, and the associated incompetence/maliciousness involved in firing him on his wedding day, when you have the insane, self-defeating pettiness in delaying the entire women's revolution, bogging it down in this cul-de-sac 3-on-3-on-3 team angle, just so Nikki could break AJ Lee's record by a day before they get rid of the title for good, when you have Bryan booked for a meaningless one-on-one match at WM against Sheamus when he was/is the focus of the main angle, the whole Roman Reigns debacle, Drew McIntyre being depushed because he was assaulted, the rehiring of Hulk because apparently 3 years means racism didn't happen, the bullying and discrimination against Mauro Ranallo, Bill DeMott's training program, their pathetic desperation to be relevant with various awful celebrity segments (eg Cathy Lee and Hoda), the open invitation to Michael Sam and the willing sacrifice in quality involved to make Raw three hours...when you have all that stuff, people just end up souring on the entire company.

And this is just in the last decade or less and I'm pretty sure I'm missing a lot. Now, some of those are worse than others, but they build up a picture when taken together, and most importantly feed into each other - like the Nikki record thing. WWE's pettiness in the past 100% predisposes me, and others, to believe they did it specifically so AJ wouldn't have the record. Maybe people wouldn't really accuse WWE of doing something so pathetic if they didn't spend every waking minute lowering the bar to the centre of the earth. It's a downward spiral of disgust.

None of those things individually are in the mind of the fan when they're chanting Husky Harris. That's not what I'm saying. But any one of those things would be enough to sour your opinion on a company and WWE does them, like, weekly. And the totality of it all leads to a situation where WWE is the only mainstream wrestling show, the easiest to watch, and the thing you're most likely to have in common with friends and others, but it's also very, very easy to actively despise even as you give them money.

So WWE are presenting to you someone you've seen before but as this completely new character, and WWE clearly want you to forget about Husky Harris, it just comes off to them as WWE lying and manipulating again. You don't want to play along with such a shady, disgusting, piece of shit company. But it's also a fun wrestling show to go to. Nobody likes WWE the company, really. They buy into the individual talents, or sometimes angles. But there's such a lack of faith in the company that people will sometimes show up to enjoy hating WWE and to actively shit on the company even while paying for the tickets. So a mix of protest and enjoyment.
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It's also worth noting that many of the people in the crowd we're from Philly, because that's absolutely not just the Pittsburgh crowd (because they would be dead as hell if it were) and they drove a long distance for a mediocre show. And that all of the advertisements did tell us for months that Brock would be there, only for him to not be there a few weeks ahead of time after people bought tickets. That likely added to the frustration.
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Thought on Raw tonight. Braun said that he was going to cash in next time Brock is there. Angle said that Brock has to show up tomorrow night or get stripped of the title. Does Braun attempt a cash in tomorrow night?

I don't see Lesnar dropping the belt right now, since it needs to be a bigger event after all of this, but it should be interesting.
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RaidenZeroX posted...

Thought on Raw tonight. Braun said that he was going to cash in next time Brock is there. Angle said that Brock has to show up tomorrow night or get stripped of the title. Does Braun attempt a cash in tomorrow night?

I don't see Lesnar dropping the belt right now, since it needs to be a bigger event after all of this, but it should be interesting.

Given what we discussed last night and given how...dead his push is with the crowd, feeding Lashley to Brock seems logical.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

when you give us a lame Roman match with no heat for the crowd to get comfortable dumping on the match and the show for, of course they're going to keep goofing around.

But why the hell are they doing that? Roman wasn't in the main event. He wasn't the focus. He wasn't... Anything. He was in a mid-card match with no stakes that ended up being passable. And he lost.

People that are just going to shit on WWE for Roman Reigns existing instead of shitting on WWE when they actually overpush him are the worst kind of people and are going to ruin it for everybody with shit like the main event
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HashtagSEP posted...

People that are just going to s*** on WWE for Roman Reigns existing instead of s***ting on WWE when they actually overpush him are the worst kind of people and are going to ruin it for everybody with s*** like the main event

Well to be honest, this is how petty wrestling fans are.
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I mean the match WAS dull and had no heat.

Every single problem with the show comes down to the fact that its build was shit.

That was a crowd that was there to see Brock and got baited and switched.
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Reigns still hasn't turned heel. That's the only thing that will satisfy them. Heel and in the midcard. That's the literal only thing that'll do it imo.

eaedwards6400 posted...

Well to be honest, this is how petty wrestling fans are.

Hating WWE isn't petty. They give you more than enough reasons to do it.
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What WWE does really well: props and presentation.

It feels like a really big fucking deal in the way that say Impact and ROH do not.

They have individually very talented performers and good matches in isolation (this is why 205 Live is routinely the most praised section of the show)

Where they struggle is characters and overall direction. I don't think WWE being petty scumbags hurts them TOO badly because its wrestling; they're all petty scumbags.

But if they magically werent that would be an asset too.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Reigns still hasn't turned heel. That's the only thing that will satisfy them. Heel and in the midcard. That's the literal only thing that'll do it imo.

eaedwards6400 posted...

Well to be honest, this is how petty wrestling fans are.

Hating WWE isn't petty. They give you more than enough reasons to do it.

I mean, nobody's saying people have to like Reigns or anything. They just have to not decide to shit on the rest of a show just because Reigns happened to be booked on it. That much is incredibly petty, yes.
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Oh no Mr Saito just died
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HashtagSEP posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

when you give us a lame Roman match with no heat for the crowd to get comfortable dumping on the match and the show for, of course they're going to keep goofing around.

But why the hell are they doing that? Roman wasn't in the main event. He wasn't the focus. He wasn't... Anything. He was in a mid-card match with no stakes that ended up being passable. And he lost.

People that are just going to shit on WWE for Roman Reigns existing instead of shitting on WWE when they actually overpush him are the worst kind of people and are going to ruin it for everybody with shit like the main event

Because you're more willing to watch the show and not act out when you don't get a mediocre Roman match that you can't care about. For at least 20+ minutes, Roman was the focus and people didn't care and wanted to entertain themselves.

If that match happened last, at the very least, the crowd may not have been restless enough for the rest of the night and dumped on the Iron Man match.

Even ignoring Roman and Lashley, putting an Iron Man match at the close of a 4 hour PPV that was majority boring and bad is the main reason it got dumped on. They didn't dump on it because of Roman, they dumped on it because the show sucked.
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Eddv posted...

What WWE does really well: props and presentation.

the unfortunate thing is that they are slowly getting worse at this

no more pyro, trons are lazy, music is a bit weaker....
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stop watching WWE they promote racists and do not care what you want.

yeah but nobody here wants to talk about 2015 stardom or season 1 LU with me
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Tom Bombadil posted...

stop watching WWE they promote racists and do not care what you want.

yeah but nobody here wants to talk about 2015 stardom or season 1 LU with me

Is MWC Back? lol
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Because you're more willing to watch the show and not act out when you don't get a mediocre Roman match that you can't care about. For at least 20+ minutes, Roman was the focus and people didn't care and wanted to entertain themselves.

I'm sorry, but anybody with this mentality is petty and stupid

This turning from "Reigns is overpushed" to "We're just going to hate on Reigns in general and shit on any show that has him even when he's not overpushed" is fucking stupid and I'm kind of embarrassed to be a WWE fan, now
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I mean, I guess you can just quote that part and ignore the part where I clearly explained the main reason that it was dumped on was because the show as a whole sucked and that putting Roman at the main event might have helped keep people from dumping on the Iron Man match so hard because they wouldn't have become restless and rowdy during the Roman match before it.
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You're literally saying "Well if they put the Roman match after it maybe it wouldn't have happened" which doesn't answer the problem of those people being petty and stupid, no
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I just want to point out that, had this show featured some more competitive matches, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Nakamura/Jeff was actually a really great move for Nakamura and the sort of surprising sequence that gets a crowd riled up. It made Nakamura look clever, heelish and also like a guy with a really dominating finisher. Orton made a return with questionable motives and that set up a scene in the US Title division with questions that actually can propel someone to watch Smackdown to find out more. Similarly, the B Team win wasn't particularly surprising but it energized the crowd and started the show strong. You had a Bobby/Roman match that was actually not terrible. The crowd wasn't into it, but if you wanted Bobby to look like a threat, beating Roman was the right choice. Braun and KO peaked at the finish and the crowd was really into it.

Daniel Bryan/Bludgeons was really kind of botched in the end since the announcers really didn't get over what was happening and the fact that the Bludgeons really didn't dominate Bryan near the end. You also didn't have Bryan really attempting to make a tag to Kane that couldn't be made. It just looked like Bryan lost because he lost.

Carmella and Asuka was a real shitfest. Comedy spots are fine, don't get me wrong, but this is just the wrong kind of comedy. It makes Asuka look like such a clown when a simple head into a cage ends her. Carmella has never come across as compelling and the crowd is consistently dead for her. In a division with over talent like Naomi or skilled talent like Becky and Charlotte, Carmella is clearly the wrong choice. On the RAW side, the women's match only really found heat when Ronda stepped in the wrong. The rest of the time, the match was pretty dull and lacked much in the way of heat. I think Alexa came out to a much smaller pop than normal, and that's a sign she's reaching overexposure. There's nothing wrong with backseating someone for a short period of time and taking them off TV for a month or two. It helped Orton in his return on this show.

Meanwhile the pre-show had a really great New Day/Sanity match. That's the sort of competition this show lacked. It even fit the Extreme Rules concept much better than the majority of this show.

I think if top to bottom the show had more compelling wrestling matches, the crowd would have been more into what was happening. As it was, there were some good angles but not a lot of good wrestling, and so you had a lukewarm crowd that was apt to do their own thing since WWE does not have interest in training the crowd. They have purposely antagonized the crowd for a long time, and now the crowd is trained to be ill-behaved. If you went to NXT, they would be much more apt to cheer people they don't necessarily like because they've been trained that NXT tries in good faith to entertain and provide the best show they can at a Takeover.
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But the issue here wasn't Roman. The issue is that they put on a bad four hour show. Them dumping on the Iron Man match was not because of Roman, but the fact that the Roman match made them restless and rowdy and they kept with that atmosphere the rest of the show.

Why are people petty and stupid for crapping on an bad four hour show they paid money for? Why can't they be allowed to entertain themselves if WWE wastes their time and money? If WWE actually had a good show, I sincerely doubt they would have crapped on anything at all aside from probably the Roman match.
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That's pretty much it. It's a four hour show and it didn't even try to be good. I don't expect the crowd to be civil for anything but an amazing show going forward because the four hour thing is a huge mistake. Their bigger PPVs get away with it because there's a feeling that they're at least trying to give you a good show worthy of the runtime.

No Mercy 2018 will get no mercy from the fans to be sure.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I just want to point out that, had this show featured some more competitive matches, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Nakamura/Jeff was actually a really great move for Nakamura and the sort of surprising sequence that gets a crowd riled up. It made Nakamura look clever, heelish and also like a guy with a really dominating finisher. Orton made a return with questionable motives and that set up a scene in the US Title division with questions that actually can propel someone to watch Smackdown to find out more. Similarly, the B Team win wasn't particularly surprising but it energized the crowd and started the show strong. You had a Bobby/Roman match that was actually not terrible. The crowd wasn't into it, but if you wanted Bobby to look like a threat, beating Roman was the right choice. Braun and KO peaked at the finish and the crowd was really into it.

Daniel Bryan/Bludgeons was really kind of botched in the end since the announcers really didn't get over what was happening and the fact that the Bludgeons really didn't dominate Bryan near the end. You also didn't have Bryan really attempting to make a tag to Kane that couldn't be made. It just looked like Bryan lost because he lost.

Carmella and Asuka was a real shitfest. Comedy spots are fine, don't get me wrong, but this is just the wrong kind of comedy. It makes Asuka look like such a clown when a simple head into a cage ends her. Carmella has never come across as compelling and the crowd is consistently dead for her. In a division with over talent like Naomi or skilled talent like Becky and Charlotte, Carmella is clearly the wrong choice. On the RAW side, the women's match only really found heat when Ronda stepped in the wrong. The rest of the time, the match was pretty dull and lacked much in the way of heat. I think Alexa came out to a much smaller pop than normal, and that's a sign she's reaching overexposure. There's nothing wrong with backseating someone for a short period of time and taking them off TV for a month or two. It helped Orton in his return on this show.

Meanwhile the pre-show had a really great New Day/Sanity match. That's the sort of competition this show lacked. It even fit the Extreme Rules concept much better than the majority of this show.

I think if top to bottom the show had more compelling wrestling matches, the crowd would have been more into what was happening. As it was, there were some good angles but not a lot of good wrestling, and so you had a lukewarm crowd that was apt to do their own thing since WWE does not have interest in training the crowd. They have purposely antagonized the crowd for a long time, and now the crowd is trained to be ill-behaved. If you went to NXT, they would be much more apt to cheer people they don't necessarily like because they've been trained that NXT tries in good faith to entertain and provide the best show they can at a Takeover.

I think this is a spot on analysis!
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I also need the stress that local advertising also claimed we'd be getting Brock Lesnar at this show too since they went on sale and even a week after they said Brock wouldn't be on the show. So you have people traveling to go see an Extreme Rules show with Brock defending the title for a change and then they also didn't get that, so I'd assume that also sours things too.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Why are people petty and stupid for crapping on an bad four hour show they paid money for? Why can't they be allowed to entertain themselves if WWE wastes their time and money?

Im not sympathetic for WWE, dont get me wrong. They deserve everything they get. The clock stuff bothers me because it actively sabotaged a match that OTHER FANS, such as myself, wanted to enjoy.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I also need the stress that local advertising also claimed we'd be getting Brock Lesnar at this show too since they went on sale and even a week after they said Brock wouldn't be on the show. So you have people traveling to go see an Extreme Rules show with Brock defending the title for a change and then they also didn't get that, so I'd assume that also sours things too.

I don't recall seeing ads for Brock?
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For real? I distinctly remember seeing them because me and my buddies were initially excited that Brock would be defending.
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Braun/Owens was actually okay but only really memorable for THAT spot which Mick did better in '96.
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Jakyl25 posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Why are people petty and stupid for crapping on an bad four hour show they paid money for? Why can't they be allowed to entertain themselves if WWE wastes their time and money?

Im not sympathetic for WWE, dont get me wrong. They deserve everything they get. The clock stuff bothers me because it actively sabotaged a match that OTHER FANS, such as myself, wanted to enjoy.

See, I think until you've been in those situations, you will have a hard time understanding that. Sitting on your couch being able to half ignore the show when it's boring is much more different than having to sit through these shows live with the added frustration of having spent money on it. It's easy to say "They should be more respectful to the people watching" when you aren't the one there live, bored out of your mind and annoyed that you've had to sit through a crappy show you paid a bunch of money for.
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Most of the ads I recalled seeing involved Styles to be honest.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Why are people petty and stupid for crapping on an bad four hour show they paid money for? Why can't they be allowed to entertain themselves if WWE wastes their time and money?

Im not sympathetic for WWE, dont get me wrong. They deserve everything they get. The clock stuff bothers me because it actively sabotaged a match that OTHER FANS, such as myself, wanted to enjoy.

See, I think until you've been in those situations, you will have a hard time understanding that. Sitting on your couch being able to half ignore the show when it's boring is much more different than having to sit through these shows live with the added frustration of having spent money on it. It's easy to say "They should be more respectful to the people watching" when you aren't the one there live, bored out of your mind and annoyed that you've had to sit through a crappy show you paid a bunch of money for.

Thats when you just leave dude! There was nothing else left on the show
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Again, easy to say you want to leave when you paid a lot of money to be there.

Like, I totally get where you're coming from, but I've been to a lot of these crappy Pittsburgh shows. Hell, I was even at the second and last Road Block show and the Royal Rumble with the Daniel Bryan riots. I know from really crappy shows I've had to sit through and the money spent going to them. I'd rather get my money's worth any way I can by joining along in a fun chant than just leave.
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I mean if people pay for a play they don't like, they don't start chanting "We are awesome!"

When people don't like a movie, they walk out instead of chanting "Ge-orge Cloo-ney!"

Almost any other event you'd pay to go to, you just leave if you don't like it

This type of idiocy seems like it's unique to wrestling fans

If your idea of fun is acting like an idiot and ruining things for others, then that's a problem
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sports fans, however, go into business for themselves all the time when they are bored

see: the wave

or vuvuzelas

or other dumb chanting

and vince loves to promote his stuff as "sports" and makes a huge deal about paying people getting to do what they want so fans will fans
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Youre excused for Rumble 15. That rebellion was due to events that transpired DURING the match, after people WANTED to like it.

Seth and Dolph got no such opportunity
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I mean I read that Dolph/Rollins had 7 falls take place in the first 5 minutes or something and had a 4 minute rest hold in there. Are we sure the fans screwed it up as much as you're saying here? Sounds like it would've been a bad match either way.

Either way a guaranteed 30 minute match with a poor build that really shouldn't have been an iron man match to begin with at the end of a 4 hour exhausting card was denied opportunity by the booking not the fans
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Yeah the fans were doing their thing from before the falls started amassing.

The rest hold section was Seth and Dolph trying to work out what to do now that they had a weird crowd and no clock to look at anymore
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eaedwards6400 posted...

I think this is a spot on analysis!

Thanks. I really don't blame Seth/Dolph for being anything except incorrectly positioned. If you had put it second or third, it would have played.
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HashtagSEP posted...

I mean if people pay for a play they don't like, they don't start chanting "We are awesome!"

When people don't like a movie, they walk out instead of chanting "Ge-orge Cloo-ney!"

Almost any other event you'd pay to go to, you just leave if you don't like it

This type of idiocy seems like it's unique to wrestling fans

If your idea of fun is acting like an idiot and ruining things for others, then that's a problem

You don't pay as much to go to a live event as you do going to a wrestling show. And movies don't go out of their way to show awesome fight scenes and then go "NVM it's three seconds long" like Nakamura and Hardy.

And even more than that, movies and plays don't encourage you to cheer and chant and crap like wrestling does. You can't be upset at fans for chanting and entertaining themselves when WWE goes out of their way to encourage it. And you can't be upset they aren't chanting the way that you want them to.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Yeah the fans were doing their thing from before the falls started amassing.

I'm not saying they weren't I'm just saying that sounds like a match I'd hate even without dumbass fans.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

You don't pay as much to go to a live event as you do going to a wrestling show. And movies don't go out of their way to show awesome fight scenes and then go "NVM it's three seconds long" like Nakamura and Hardy.

Indiana Jones versus the sword-wielder. And it gets the winner over.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

You don't pay as much to go to a live event as you do going to a wrestling show. And movies don't go out of their way to show awesome fight scenes and then go "NVM it's three seconds long" like Nakamura and Hardy.

Indiana Jones versus the sword-wielder. And it gets the winner over.

I have been shown who is the boss. :(
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Though I will just note Indy only does that once.

This card had like 5 of those.
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I'm sorry, but you're never going to convince me "I paid to go to this show" is free license to be an idiot and actively ruin it for other people, and then act like it's not fair to call you out for it.
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It's totally fair to call people out on it, but it's also totally fair for them to do it in the first place.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" and all that (except I don't really care that much, this is a dumb hill to fight on, much less die on)
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