Poll of the Day > Should sales and property taxes be limited to luxury items?

(+) Yeah! (+)

So, as far as sales, things like first aid, medicine, water, and diet essential foods would be all tax-free. Alcohol, junk food, entertainment, electronics, hotels, and about anything else you can think of you would still be alive without would be taxed. As far as more debatable goods, like coffee, gas, charcoal, could be left to states to choose how they tax.

For property, any land you own not exceeding some value or size would be tax exempt.

As a follow up, if one or both of these systems were introduced, should income taxes be abolished?

The current U.S. tax system is out of whack, but I personally don't feel one way or the other about this particular idea as a replacement.

luxury tax should only happen when you land there
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Cherrys2000 posted...

So, as far as sales, things like first aid, medicine, water, and diet essential foods would be all tax-free.

Uh, in most states aren't most of those are already tax free (well, non-prepared foods, anyway)? Hell, in CT, even clothing *used* to be tax free (#FuckYouDanMalloy)

Cherrys2000 posted...

Alcohol, junk food, entertainment, electronics, hotels, and about anything else you can think of you would still be alive without would be taxed. As far as more debatable goods, like coffee, gas, charcoal, could be left to states to choose how they tax.

For property, any land you own not exceeding some value or size would be tax exempt.

As a follow up, if one or both of these systems were introduced, should income taxes be abolished?

Wait, so you're going to reduce or eliminate taxes *then* additionally remove income tax? How the fuck is government going to finance anything?

Cherrys2000 posted...

The current U.S. tax system is out of whack, but I personally don't feel one way or the other about this particular idea as a replacement.

Well, it's similar to what we already have except taxes would be reduced further so, unless you were massively cutting services, you're going to hit monster budget deficits.
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@Zeus

Yeah, that's about what I thought.

I had seen the idea from Ben Shapiro originally, eliminating income tax and all, which was interesting. For all he criticizes socialism for, the false moral high grounds and the impossibility to put to practice, this plan has streaks of all of that. Apparently it's all fine because at least you get to choose how much you get taxed.

Ancaps sound a lot like socialists, actually.

Zeus posted...

Uh, in most states aren't most of those are already tax free (well, non-prepared foods, anyway)?

Just realized that after re-phrasing that question several times, I introduced an error >_<

Cherrys2000 posted...

I had seen the idea from Ben Shapiro originally, eliminating income tax and all, which was interesting. For all he criticizes socialism for, the false moral high grounds and the impossibility to put to practice, this plan has streaks of all of that. Apparently it's all fine because at least you get to choose how much you get taxed.

Here's the thing: You really can't talk about cutting taxes by itself because 99% of the time you'd have to reduce spending to avoid running a deficit. And, in general, you can't reasonably expect to make budget without certain forms of taxes and some taxes are more essential than others. While you have some states without sales tax or a state income tax, there's *no* state without a property tax (and, even in states without a state income tax, you're still paying a federal income tax).

States without one kind of tax tend to have a higher tax on something else. Something like New Hampshire, for instance, has no sales or income tax -- but is has the third-highest property tax in the nation. The idea that you can reduce one type of tax, exempt several others, and then outright remove a third and still have a functioning state government capable of providing essential services is folly. As it is, budget shortfalls *already* encourage backdoor taxes like fines, fees, etc.

And sure, there is well-intentioned bad social and other spending that wastes money and hurts society as a whole. However, it's likely nowhere near enough to justify removing whole forms of taxation.
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The real problem is in how you define "luxury".


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Zeus posted...

States without one kind of tax tend to have a higher tax on something else. Something like New Hampshire, for instance, has no sales or income tax -- but is has the third-highest property tax in the nation.

That's the point? I don't think anybody with half a brain thinks you can drop tax without dropping spending.

The idea is that taxes come from what people don't need but really want so if they're in a shit situation they can stop buying luxuries and save aggressively to get enough funds together to pay for education or training to raise their income enough to afford luxuries again. This would mean that social security initiatives would be less necessary as people can be responsible for getting themselves to a good pay grade. If people are stuck with high taxes regardless of how they manage their life then they can be stuck in a position where they can't save enough to improve their situation and willingly put themselves in a position where they pay more tax.

This is what the right wants, and I wish that the left would recognise this so they stop acting like the right wants to just crash the economy. Both sides have different philosophies for achieving the same goals.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

The real problem is in how you define "luxury".

Exactly what I came in to say. Who decides what luxuries are? Because there are things like... Nestle doesn't think water is a human right.

Also sin taxes on things that are bad for you just hurt the poor and keep them more poor, desperate, and unhappy.
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Moonjay posted...

Exactly what I came in to say. Who decides what luxuries are? Because there are things like... Nestle doesn't think water is a human right.

Also sin taxes on things that are bad for you just hurt the poor and keep them more poor, desperate, and unhappy.

I think more realistically the issue is what we consider necessities. If the intent is to let people save to take opportunities but a car is a luxury then a lot of opportunities are inviable. I don't see an issue with everything that isn't absolutely necessary being a luxury as long as all necessities are safe.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

If the intent is to let people save to take opportunities but a car is a luxury then a lot of opportunities are inviable.

Especially when you consider regional differences.

I know people in NYC who have never owned a car, and have never really regretted the lack for 20+ years.

Meanwhile, if you lacked a car where I live, you'd be unemployed in a week and probably dead in a month.

To the person who lives in NYC, a car is a luxury. To me, a car is pretty much a necessity.


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I encourage you to visit Being Libertarian on Facebook to get an idea of what AnCaps are really like. They don't just want income tax gone, they want ALL taxes gone. I started getting into the libertarian philosophy and I had to draw the line at AnCaps. I'm all for no income tax and less government regulation, but I want nothing to do with anarchy.
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XlaxJynx007 posted...

I encourage you to visit Being Libertarian on Facebook to get an idea of what AnCaps are really like. They don't just want income tax gone, they want ALL taxes gone. I started getting into the libertarian philosophy and I had to draw the line at AnCaps. I'm all for no income tax and less government regulation, but I want nothing to do with anarchy.

Or, you know, google the term.

Anarcho-capitalism is enough to put any sane person off.
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XlaxJynx007 posted...

I encourage you to visit Being Libertarian on Facebook to get an idea of what AnCaps are really like. They don't just want income tax gone, they want ALL taxes gone. I started getting into the libertarian philosophy and I had to draw the line at AnCaps. I'm all for no income tax and less government regulation, but I want nothing to do with anarchy.

Looking to understand any political philosophy by looking for them online is a terrible strategy, because online (especially in groups explicitly catering to that worldview), you are going to find the most extremist and insane members of any subgroup shouting as loudly as they can, drowning out the more moderate voices and leaving you with the worst possible impression of their beliefs.

I was actually friends with a number of AnCaps years ago (as well as a few Anarcho-Syndicalists), and most of them could express their views quite intelligently, and weren't necessarily as insane or extremist as you might think, and most are more than willing to be flexible on the degree to which they feel government needs to be scaled back (though obviously, most of them lean towards "as much as possible"). At the time I was generally a small-government libertarian (still am, more or less), and while I'd occasionally make jokes about being a "dirty statist", none of them really pressed the idea that I was a terrible evil or that I was inherently wrong for supporting the concept of government itself.

Most of them were more concerned with the idea of the Non-Aggression Principle more than they were a scenario of total anarchy or the complete absence of a government body of any kind. One of them even worked as a guard in a federal prison.

I'd say a lot of their ideology just boils down to the idea that self-policing systems have their flaws, but the current system has its own host of flaws, so self-determination isn't all that worse an option if plenty of people are already getting fucked over.


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Kyuubi4269 posted...

XlaxJynx007 posted...

I encourage you to visit Being Libertarian on Facebook to get an idea of what AnCaps are really like. They don't just want income tax gone, they want ALL taxes gone. I started getting into the libertarian philosophy and I had to draw the line at AnCaps. I'm all for no income tax and less government regulation, but I want nothing to do with anarchy.

Or, you know, google the term.

Anarcho-capitalism is enough to put any sane person off.

I'm a minarchist, but Anarcho-capitalism is far from the craziest form of government, it's much better than fascism, communism, or Theocracies
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Muscles posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

XlaxJynx007 posted...

I encourage you to visit Being Libertarian on Facebook to get an idea of what AnCaps are really like. They don't just want income tax gone, they want ALL taxes gone. I started getting into the libertarian philosophy and I had to draw the line at AnCaps. I'm all for no income tax and less government regulation, but I want nothing to do with anarchy.

Or, you know, google the term.

Anarcho-capitalism is enough to put any sane person off.

I'm a minarchist, but Anarcho-capitalism is far from the craziest form of government, it's much better than fascism, communism, or Theocracies

So? Dying in your sleep is preferable to being starved, but you still don't want to die.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Muscles posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

XlaxJynx007 posted...

I encourage you to visit Being Libertarian on Facebook to get an idea of what AnCaps are really like. They don't just want income tax gone, they want ALL taxes gone. I started getting into the libertarian philosophy and I had to draw the line at AnCaps. I'm all for no income tax and less government regulation, but I want nothing to do with anarchy.

Or, you know, google the term.

Anarcho-capitalism is enough to put any sane person off.

I'm a minarchist, but Anarcho-capitalism is far from the craziest form of government, it's much better than fascism, communism, or Theocracies

So? Dying in your sleep is preferable to being starved, but you still don't want to die.

I'm saying that it doesn't put any sane person off because sane people support worse forms of government already
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Muscles posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Muscles posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

XlaxJynx007 posted...

I encourage you to visit Being Libertarian on Facebook to get an idea of what AnCaps are really like. They don't just want income tax gone, they want ALL taxes gone. I started getting into the libertarian philosophy and I had to draw the line at AnCaps. I'm all for no income tax and less government regulation, but I want nothing to do with anarchy.

Or, you know, google the term.

Anarcho-capitalism is enough to put any sane person off.

I'm a minarchist, but Anarcho-capitalism is far from the craziest form of government, it's much better than fascism, communism, or Theocracies

So? Dying in your sleep is preferable to being starved, but you still don't want to die.

I'm saying that it doesn't put any sane person off because sane people support worse forms of government already

No, sane people don't support fascism, communism or theocracies.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Muscles posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Muscles posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

XlaxJynx007 posted...

I encourage you to visit Being Libertarian on Facebook to get an idea of what AnCaps are really like. They don't just want income tax gone, they want ALL taxes gone. I started getting into the libertarian philosophy and I had to draw the line at AnCaps. I'm all for no income tax and less government regulation, but I want nothing to do with anarchy.

Or, you know, google the term.

Anarcho-capitalism is enough to put any sane person off.

I'm a minarchist, but Anarcho-capitalism is far from the craziest form of government, it's much better than fascism, communism, or Theocracies

So? Dying in your sleep is preferable to being starved, but you still don't want to die.

I'm saying that it doesn't put any sane person off because sane people support worse forms of government already

No, sane people don't support fascism, communism or theocracies.

No, but those were just some examples, sane people support governments that aren't as bad as those but are still bad
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XlaxJynx007 posted...

I encourage you to visit Being Libertarian on Facebook to get an idea of what AnCaps are really like. They don't just want income tax gone, they want ALL taxes gone. I started getting into the libertarian philosophy and I had to draw the line at AnCaps. I'm all for no income tax and less government regulation, but I want nothing to do with anarchy.

Shapiro and others pander to them anyway. All the same arguments, government all bad corporations all good, social fabric, trickle down theory; just not a full stop denouncement of the state to be seen.