Current Events > a minimum wage should be a livable wage

(+) Yeah! (+)

Rika_Furude posted...

MedzXVIII posted...

you can live off minimum wage if you stop going to starbucks

explain how someone pays for the following in america on minimum wage

Shelter, clothing, food, water, transportation, electricity, internet, cheap hobby/entertainment

Stop going to starbucks
---

scorpion41 posted...

These jobs exist solely as temp jobs

False.

MedzXVIII posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

MedzXVIII posted...

you can live off minimum wage if you stop going to starbucks

explain how someone pays for the following in america on minimum wage

Shelter, clothing, food, water, transportation, electricity, internet, cheap hobby/entertainment

Stop going to starbucks

ctrl-f starbucks
no results found
---

no need to wear the new shoes that cost hundreds of dollars
---

Disagree. It's not the employer's responsibly to make sure you have enough money to live on. They simply pay you commensurate with the skill required, how hard it would be to replace you, etc. (they don't always succeed at this, but it's not relevant to the point at hand) but that doesn't mean someone is automatically entitled to have all their living expenses covered simply because they complete tasks for 40 hours per week for someone else.

Also, it's interfering with individuals' freedom to unreasonable extent. For the sake of argument, suppose that it's agreed upon that this livable wage is $15 per hour. Why should someone not be free to compete and offer to do it for $14 per hour? Especially if it's someone who's young and has no work experience, offering to do it for a little less might be the only way they can compete against others.
---

DifferentialEquation posted...

Why should someone not be free to compete and offer to do it for $14 per hour?

not all competition is positive
---

rexcrk posted...

Kolibri X posted...

High school tier jobs are meant to be temporary. Get roommates or get a real job.

Theres always that one jackass who says this bullshit in these types of threads.

Drives me crazy.

He is right though. You guys want to do the bare minimum and still love comfortably.
---

DifferentialEquation posted...

Also, it's interfering with individuals' freedom to unreasonable extent. For the sake of argument, suppose that it's agreed upon that this livable wage is $15 per hour. Why should someone not be free to compete and offer to do it for $14 per hour?

Without any form of regulation or minimum wage we'd have a race to the bottom. With technology and specialization the average worker's productivity has increased dramatically yet the majority of workers contributing to the profits reaped see none of it.

Without keeping employers in line you'll turn America into Mexico where people work 7 days a week and receive $5-$10 and live without any form of healthcare. Complete libeterian anarchy is not sustainable.

clearaflagrantj posted...

DifferentialEquation posted...

Also, it's interfering with individuals' freedom to unreasonable extent. For the sake of argument, suppose that it's agreed upon that this livable wage is $15 per hour. Why should someone not be free to compete and offer to do it for $14 per hour?

Without any form of regulation or minimum wage we'd have a race to the bottom. With technology and specialization the average worker's productivity has increased dramatically yet the majority of workers contributing to the profits reaped see none of it.

Without keeping employers in line you'll turn America into Mexico where people work 7 days a week and receive $5-$10 and live without any form of healthcare. Complete libeterian anarchy is not sustainable.

Healthcare isn't a right though.
---

the studies on the minimum wage haven't shown much of an increase in unemployment in response ot modest increases in the minimum wage, but there is some pass through of costs on to consumers. It is feasible that a big enough increase could both raise prices and raise unemployment in a way that would be a net negative for the average person.

the other thing that gets me is -- if we assume there is no downside to a minimum wage -- we run into problems with cost of living adjustments by area. like poverty level for a family of four in san fransisco is over 100k a year, I think? how do we deal with that? is it really fair to have a $30/hour minimum wage in SF but only $15 in Arkansas?

idk
---

donkeyjack posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

DifferentialEquation posted...

Also, it's interfering with individuals' freedom to unreasonable extent. For the sake of argument, suppose that it's agreed upon that this livable wage is $15 per hour. Why should someone not be free to compete and offer to do it for $14 per hour?

Without any form of regulation or minimum wage we'd have a race to the bottom. With technology and specialization the average worker's productivity has increased dramatically yet the majority of workers contributing to the profits reaped see none of it.

Without keeping employers in line you'll turn America into Mexico where people work 7 days a week and receive $5-$10 and live without any form of healthcare. Complete libeterian anarchy is not sustainable.

Healthcare isn't a right though.

"hur dur you have the RIGHT to die lolololol!"

I'm fine with a minimum wage being livable, but it should be calculated on minimal living. You know, enough to keep you alive and healthy, but small enough to make you want to find a better job.
---

clearaflagrantj posted...

DifferentialEquation posted...

Also, it's interfering with individuals' freedom to unreasonable extent. For the sake of argument, suppose that it's agreed upon that this livable wage is $15 per hour. Why should someone not be free to compete and offer to do it for $14 per hour?

Without any form of regulation or minimum wage we'd have a race to the bottom. With technology and specialization the average worker's productivity has increased dramatically yet the majority of workers contributing to the profits reaped see none of it.

Without keeping employers in line you'll turn America into Mexico where people work 7 days a week and receive $5-$10 and live without any form of healthcare. Complete libeterian anarchy is not sustainable.

How do you know that for sure? There are plenty of jobs in existence right now that could pay minimum wage but instead pay higher. Even if they're paying only $1 above minimum wage, they're still paying above minimum wage. If it would give us a race to the bottom, then why are there all these jobs that need to offer higher than minimum wage (for basic positions like cashiers) in order to fill the positions?
---

Balrog0 posted...

the studies on the minimum wage haven't shown much of an increase in unemployment in response ot modest increases in the minimum wage, but there is some pass through of costs on to consumers. It is feasible that a big enough increase could both raise prices and raise unemployment in a way that would be a net negative for the average person.

the other thing that gets me is -- if we assume there is no downside to a minimum wage -- we run into problems with cost of living adjustments by area. like poverty level for a family of four in san fransisco is over 100k a year, I think? how do we deal with that? is it really fair to have a $30/hour minimum wage in SF but only $15 in Arkansas?

idk

That's the shit these people don't get. They are offend by it because they made dumb ass decision that is hard to comeback from. They should just start a business.
---

donkeyjack posted...

rexcrk posted...

Kolibri X posted...

High school tier jobs are meant to be temporary. Get roommates or get a real job.

Theres always that one jackass who says this bullshit in these types of threads.

Drives me crazy.

He is right though. You guys want to do the bare minimum and still love comfortably.

---

clearaflagrantj posted...

DifferentialEquation posted...

Also, it's interfering with individuals' freedom to unreasonable extent. For the sake of argument, suppose that it's agreed upon that this livable wage is $15 per hour. Why should someone not be free to compete and offer to do it for $14 per hour?

Without any form of regulation or minimum wage we'd have a race to the bottom. With technology and specialization the average worker's productivity has increased dramatically yet the majority of workers contributing to the profits reaped see none of it.

Without keeping employers in line you'll turn America into Mexico where people work 7 days a week and receive $5-$10 and live without any form of healthcare. Complete libeterian anarchy is not sustainable.

You mean a Socialist country is a shithole? Say it ain't so!
---

Abolish minimum wage and set up social programs to cover whatever is needed. And tax businesses more. Done. I fixed it.
---

Worth noting ITT that the minimum wage we currently have is not being effectively enforced:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/18/minimum-wage-not-enforced-investigation-409644
---

DifferentialEquation posted...

How do you know that for sure? There are plenty of jobs in existence right now that could pay minimum wage but instead pay higher. Even if they're paying only $1 above minimum wage, they're still paying above minimum wage. If it would give us a race to the bottom, then why are there all these jobs that need to offer higher than minimum wage (for basic positions like cashiers) in order to fill the positions?

They don't need to, they offer more as a sign of good faith to their employees to show they matter, that's why companies like Costco, Wegmans, and Chik Fil A go the extra mile for low skilled labor, they know employee turnover is a massive cost and they want to retain their workers. Some companies get by with the carrot and others with the stick, more are learning that treating their employees with respect is more valuable than both. I'm a manager and I see this shit firsthand.

Th3_Butt3rfly posted...

Abolish minimum wage and set up social programs to cover whatever is needed. And tax businesses more. Done. I fixed it.

It has been done many times. Never works
---

Kaliesto posted...

Example are Laptops being sent to Bestbuy, but Bestbuy bumps up the price way more than it is actually worth.

Luxury items are priced luxuriously?

MedzXVIII posted...

Th3_Butt3rfly posted...

Abolish minimum wage and set up social programs to cover whatever is needed. And tax businesses more. Done. I fixed it.

It has been done many times. Never works

Perhaps they're not doing it right because in theory that definitely works.
---

Th3_Butt3rfly posted...

MedzXVIII posted...

Th3_Butt3rfly posted...

Abolish minimum wage and set up social programs to cover whatever is needed. And tax businesses more. Done. I fixed it.

It has been done many times. Never works

Perhaps they're not doing it right because in theory that definitely works.

There is barely any production going on though. So there is no incentive to try to work hard.
---

Kaliesto posted...

I've seen this coming too, but some of the working class doesn't seem to notice it..well until it's too late. The exploitation is only going to get worse for decades to come

It's already fucking here. We went from one breadwinner working 40 hours a week supporting a family of five to two working professionals working 50-60 hours and barely having disposable income and expected to be on call 24/7. This American Protestant work ethic circlejerk has destroyed our labor force. I'm an engineer that can produce more than a full team of engineers from the 60's-80's yet inflation adjusted I'm paid less than any one of them. All of the money is flowing up to the top 0.1% and nobody fucking cares. Look at the houses and the cars, they are all falling apart, look at people, they're all fat, depressed, yet complacent. If this happened overnight there'd be riots in the streets but the people in power left us in a slowly boiling pot of water and we never noticed.

^ That is all a huge exaggeration and I make less than you
---

clearaflagrantj posted...

This American Protestant work ethic circlejerk has destroyed our labor force. I'm an engineer that can produce more than a full team of engineers from the 60's-80's yet inflation adjusted I'm paid less than any one of them.

Because, we've perverted the work ethic into raw consumerism.

Somewhat unrelated, but speaking of cars there is going to be a slow but major switch to Air Compressed Cars in Europe as it is the most sustainable source of energy right now, and other countries are already talking about using that technology (I think China might have been one of them, and India as well).

Air Cars are nothing new but the company in question is using new technological methods, and usually new inventions take years to tweak before going public.

I feel like our country doesn't understand that our corporations are really full of shit because every time we try to do a new inventions that they tend to lobby and block it from coming over or if it was made in America to replace the older technology. We're literally putting ourselves into a hole compared to some parts of the world right now because can you imagine how much Americans would save if we just done away with gas already? That would seriously help some of the more poor communities.

I'm somewhat surprised that Tesla Motors even managed to get a few Electric Charging stations at Sheetz Gas Stations even though I feel Air Compressed Cars are more of a better alternative than Electric.
---

Sativa_Rose posted...

^ That is all a huge exaggeration and I make less than you

It's not. 76% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, 61% couldn't afford a surprise bill of $1000, 70% are overweight and 38% are obese, more and more Americans are skipping out on annual physicals because they can't afford it, more than 10 million people abuse opioids.

This country is rotting.

Kolibri X posted...

High school tier jobs are meant to be temporary. Get roommates or get a real job.

This. Do you really think people should be paid $15+ an hour to bag groceries or serve ice cream?
---

Yes
---

clearaflagrantj posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

^ That is all a huge exaggeration and I make less than you

It's not. 76% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, 61% couldn't afford a surprise bill of $1000, 70% are overweight and 38% are obese, more and more Americans are skipping out on annual physicals because they can't afford it, more than 10 million people abuse opioids.

This country is rotting.

My state has a opioid crisis going on right now, I already lost a few friends because of opioids.
---

donkeyjack posted...

rexcrk posted...

Kolibri X posted...

High school tier jobs are meant to be temporary. Get roommates or get a real job.

Theres always that one jackass who says this bullshit in these types of threads.

Drives me crazy.

He is right though.

No.

Just.. no.
---

Kaliesto posted...

We're literally putting ourselves into a hole compared to some parts of the world right now because can you imagine how much Americans would save if we just done away with gas already? That would seriously help some of the more poor communities.

We'd be better off with tiny European-type cars, than expecting the poor to buy in to some new/esoteric tech that will be unaffordable until it reaches 'proletariat' status after a generation or two.
Resurrect the Yugo. Bring over Reliant three-wheelers.

clearaflagrantj posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

^ That is all a huge exaggeration and I make less than you

It's not. 76% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, 61% couldn't afford a surprise bill of $1000, 70% are overweight and 38% are obese, more and more Americans are skipping out on annual physicals because they can't afford it, more than 10 million people abuse opioids.

This country is rotting.

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, I think a significant amount of the problem is the people themselves. They are making very poor choices. Many are lacking in intellectual capacity. Managing your money well is very rare these days. Personal self-discipline is very rare these days.
---

Antifar posted...

Yes

why do unions exempt themselves from minimum wage laws?
---

I wasn't aware that they did
---

Kolibri X posted...

Unless you're on the way to become a store manager, don't expect a middle-class lifestyle in retail.

Any of the management positions where I work make plenty enough to live a middle-class lifestyle. I'm a supermarket butcher and I, too, make plenty enough to live a middle-class lifestyle.
---

Antifar posted...

I wasn't aware that they did

that seems like a rather large oversight on your part? it is an incredibly common practice -- nearly every locality that passes a minimum wage increase of any significance carves out exemptions for at least some unions, typically due to union pressure

http://www.latimes.com/local/cityhall/la-me-union-minimum-wage-20160410-story.html

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/minimum-wage-loophole-written-to-help-labor-unions
---

youhavenohope had every single one of all top 10 posts ITT btw.
---

This is possible in Houston with a $10 job and the government's help with healthcare(Medicaid/goldcard)

You can find decent appartments for $600-$800 depends on all bills paid but they will have 1-2 bedroom. $10 an hour job, $80 a day, $400 a week working 5 days, $1,600 a month remove $200 for taxes = $1,400 a month

The problem here is that many people think that you're suppose to get fancy things or expensive things or entitled, with a small wage this is the mistake they make. Home internet is a luxury you and should never have it winning this wage stick to your phone internet. No cable you can afford either Netflix or Hulu.

With this wage you don't and shouldn't be buying $100 shoes, you go to Payless or Walmart and get $15-$20 shoes. Fancy phones? Nope get the one they give for free when starting a prepaid line. Aeropostale, sport jerseys, polo, etc...go to Walmart/target and get the $5-$10 decal shirts. People want shit they don't need to live and want to live a life that isn't for their wage.
---

It is. Your ass is going to be living in Harlem, taking the bus and eating wish sandwiches, but it is a livable wage. Don't like it? Apply yourself and aim higher. Like, I literally would not even know where yo find a min wage job, FFS even fast food pays above minimum. If you're working min wage, that's a personal failing, has fuck all to do with society.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Kaliesto posted...

We're literally putting ourselves into a hole compared to some parts of the world right now because can you imagine how much Americans would save if we just done away with gas already? That would seriously help some of the more poor communities.

We'd be better off with tiny European-type cars, than expecting the poor to buy in to some new/esoteric tech that will be unaffordable until it reaches 'proletariat' status after a generation or two.
Resurrect the Yugo. Bring over Reliant three-wheelers.

I had to re-review what I looked at, and unfortunately I should have done my homework.

Turned out the Air Compressed Car was a flop, but they say Electric is actually the future.
---

If you make $15 in Houston you're pretty much middle class ask @Cocytus he lives here. You're only concern is saving enough for a house but after that you're set.
---

Their rationale is laid out in those articles: they feel that by making union workers cheaper for businesses, businesses will be more amenable to unions and in the long run they'll get more members.

I think this approach, like so many other decisions by union leadership, is terribly misguided and not the best way to serve membership.
---

Peter_Giffyndor posted...

If you're working min wage, that's a personal failing, has fuck all to do with society.

Plenty of people are literally incapable of finding better work, whether it's the job market at large or the fact they are genuinely unable to work smarter and become specialized, does that mean we should just let them live on the streets and die?

All I can say is fucking imagine going to bat for an economic system that will allow one person to have enough money that he could literally distribute it evenly to millions of people and they'd all still be extremely well off

Imagine defending a world like that

It's the most sickening thing about humanity
---

Minimum wage hurts those it's supposed to help, you know what happens when wages go up? Stores employ less people. I'd rather have a low paying job than be unemployed. My first job i got paid 5.75 an hour, i had no skills, no experience, but because I got that job I used it as a stepping stone to better jobs. Some I could never do if minimum wage was $15, because they're never gonna hire someone with no skills for that amount.
---

clearaflagrantj posted...

Peter_Giffyndor posted...

If you're working min wage, that's a personal failing, has fuck all to do with society.

Plenty of people are literally incapable of finding better work, whether it's the job market at large or the fact they are genuinely unable to work smarter and become specialized, does that mean we should just let them live on the streets and die?

Sucks to suck I guess. Can't help everyone, but fucking it up for everyone else to cater to the extreme minority is just liberal idiocy.
Work or starve, period. If you want nicer things, get a nicer job. Stop making excuses.

For those that are mentally or physically disabled that's different and there are a plethora of government programs to help them.

Kaliesto posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Kaliesto posted...

We're literally putting ourselves into a hole compared to some parts of the world right now because can you imagine how much Americans would save if we just done away with gas already? That would seriously help some of the more poor communities.

We'd be better off with tiny European-type cars, than expecting the poor to buy in to some new/esoteric tech that will be unaffordable until it reaches 'proletariat' status after a generation or two.
Resurrect the Yugo. Bring over Reliant three-wheelers.

I had to re-review what I looked at, and unfortunately I should have done my homework.

Turned out the Air Compressed Car was a flop, but they say Electric is actually the future.

The problem with cars, specifically, is that you're not allowed to buy a cheap one, for all the mandated junk that has to be in there now for some reason.
Everything from "crumple zones" to airbags to those tire sensors just bloat up the cost, and we shredded most of our older cars in some sort of stimulus scheme.

Let the market have "deathtraps", and the market will find its own equilibrium between cost-effectiveness and vague false assurances of safety. As is, we're protecting people from "unsafe" cars so much that they can't afford a car at all, or end up with a massively unsafe and unreliable beater that escaped cash-for-clukers somehow and just devours money for maintenance.

IMO people would be making more money on average if we had more union activity and no minimum wage.
---