Current Events > EA responds to Regulators Classifying Some Loot Boxes as Gambling

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.dualshockers.com/fifa-18-gambling-ea-response/

We have already been working with many of them for some time, and have evaluated and established that programs like FIFA Ultimate Team are not gambling. He also confirmed that EA does not believe that FIFA Ultimate Team or loot boxes, in general, are gambling.

The reasoning behind that is that players always receive a specific number of items in each pack, and secondly, EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money. There is no economic value assigned to them.

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solosnake posted...

The reasoning behind that is that players always receive a specific number of items in each pack, and secondly, EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money.

What kind of argument is that?
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haha fuck EA
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EA shook af
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chill02 posted...

haha fuck EA

Mystery_Mission posted...

chill02 posted...

haha fuck EA

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Those are such weak arguments.
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Sense of pride and accomplishment
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They didn't even try to deny it.
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EA: "Nuh uh"
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bitconeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I hope they go bankrupt. Fuck EA.
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Well I'm sure that'll convince all the countries that have decided otherwise.

Another fine example of a piece of shit company, and every single fucking time, people will go out and buy their shit. EVERY fucking time. It's like why bother anymore? They should let the CEO of EA just leave little shit fragments with every copy sold just to say it's a collectors edition. Sales would go through the roof.
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Johnny_Nutcase posted...

Another fine example of a piece of shit company, and every single fucking time, people will go out and buy their shit. EVERY fucking time. It's like why bother anymore? They should let the CEO of EA just leave little shit fragments with every copy sold just to say it's a collectors edition. Sales would go through the roof.

Eh, that's the issue with oligopolies. What's the alternative, buy the Activision equivalent of what you want? They're just as bad if not worse. I agree it's bs, but are you just going to boycott gaming altogether until things change? It's going to require a hell of a lot more people than just you for the company to take notice.

Same thing if gas companies decide they want to start charging a ridiculous amount for gas. Say $10 a gallon for you Americans. Are you just going to bike to work or start taking the bus? A few people might, but for the majority they'll just take their lumps and deal with it.
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Ultima Dragon posted...

Johnny_Nutcase posted...

Another fine example of a piece of shit company, and every single fucking time, people will go out and buy their shit. EVERY fucking time. It's like why bother anymore? They should let the CEO of EA just leave little shit fragments with every copy sold just to say it's a collectors edition. Sales would go through the roof.

Eh, that's the issue with oligopolies. What's the alternative, buy the Activision equivalent of what you want? They're just as bad if not worse. I agree it's bs, but are you just going to boycott gaming altogether until things change? It's going to require a hell of a lot more people than just you for the company to take notice.

Same thing if gas companies decide they want to start charging a ridiculous amount for gas. Say $10 a gallon for you Americans. Are you just going to bike to work or start taking the bus? A few people might, but for the majority they'll just take their lumps and deal with it.

You start charging $10/gallon in the US and I promise you this country will come to a screeching hault pretty damn fast.
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There being no 'economic value' doesn't mean there isn't value. There's very clear value.

If I open up a fifa crate and I can either get a 90 player, or a 60 player, while paying the same, then I've just gambled.
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Fuck sakes, it's pretty clear that gamers just raised the issue out of spite. They concoted this 'loot boxes are gambling' argument to try and hurt EA. They aren't gambling. They are scammy as fuck, but they aren't gambling because you have no chance to win anything worth anything. The worse part, though, is that all this is doing is inviting more government involvement in gaming, and after we've spent the better part of 20 years arguing that games are an artistic expression and that games can be made for adult audiences.

Dash_Harber posted...

Fuck sakes, it's pretty clear that gamers just raised the issue out of spite. They concoted this 'loot boxes are gambling' argument to try and hurt EA. They aren't gambling. They are scammy as fuck, but they aren't gambling because you have no chance to win anything worth anything. The worse part, though, is that all this is doing is inviting more government involvement in gaming, and after we've spent the better part of 20 years arguing that games are an artistic expression and that games can be made for adult audiences.

It was European governments that first raised the point that it's gambling

Unless you want to count that whole Japan gacha case that made them have to list odds and all
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gunplagirl posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

Fuck sakes, it's pretty clear that gamers just raised the issue out of spite. They concoted this 'loot boxes are gambling' argument to try and hurt EA. They aren't gambling. They are scammy as fuck, but they aren't gambling because you have no chance to win anything worth anything. The worse part, though, is that all this is doing is inviting more government involvement in gaming, and after we've spent the better part of 20 years arguing that games are an artistic expression and that games can be made for adult audiences.

It was European governments that first raised the point that it's gambling

Unless you want to count that whole Japan gacha case that made them have to list odds and all

Wasn't it directly after the Battlefront 2 announcements? Fairly certain it came up shortly after the whole 'downvoting' thing.

Maze_ posted...

solosnake posted...

The reasoning behind that is that players always receive a specific number of items in each pack, and secondly, EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money.

What kind of argument is that?

The same reasoning why buying packs of trading cards isn't gambling. Technically, the logic is sound.
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Gamers got fed up with games being designed around loot boxes and raised a fuss about it. This attracted the eye of governments, who then saw the loot box system legality questionable, if not outright illegal. Instead of the gaming industry withdrawing the controversial practices, or at least submitting to the law, they double down like mad because they'd rather risk their freedom than lose their gravy train. The gaming industry has only itself to blame for government intervention.
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Was it EA that was caught purposely tampering with the "random" match-ups by putting those who buy lootboxes against those who don't? I think that would further hurt their case that there is nothing of value in the boxes.
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solosnake posted...

https://www.dualshockers.com/fifa-18-gambling-ea-response/

We have already been working with many of them for some time, and have evaluated and established that programs like FIFA Ultimate Team are not gambling. He also confirmed that EA does not believe that FIFA Ultimate Team or loot boxes, in general, are gambling.

The reasoning behind that is that players always receive a specific number of items in each pack, and secondly, EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money. There is no economic value assigned to them.

It's like the deliberately ignore the point of why it is considered gambling. The point is not that you don't get a "fixed number of items", the issue is that there is no guarantee of the quality of the items you'll get. It's completely random. Like a slot machine, if you spin it, you'll always get 3 icons, which icons you get however, determine what your payout is going to be.

EA be like: LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU!!
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loafy013 posted...

Was it EA that was caught purposely tampering with the "random" match-ups by putting those who buy lootboxes against those who don't? I think that would further hurt their case that there is nothing of value in the boxes.

That was an Activision patent that hasn't been used in any games (yet).
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I'm pretty sure EA knows it's gambling, but want to keep their glorious money maker free of regulation
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I mean loot boxes don't have any monetary gain or anyway to actually get money from them. So in a way it's actually worse than gambling.
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I_Stay_Noided posted...

Sense of pride and accomplishment

I think we might have innovated too much.
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As someone who's spent around $1500 on FIFA packs, I say either get rid of them, make them only achievable by actually playing (weekend league and squad battle rewards) or publish the odds of packing all players. I want to see that 0.0007% chance of CR7 out there
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solosnake posted...

EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money. There is no economic value assigned to them.

But people pay cash for virtual currency to pay for virtual items. If you're going to use this hill to fall on your sword, they got problems.
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Zeus posted...

Maze_ posted...

solosnake posted...

The reasoning behind that is that players always receive a specific number of items in each pack, and secondly, EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money.

What kind of argument is that?

The same reasoning why buying packs of trading cards isn't gambling. Technically, the logic is sound.

No it isnt.

My trading cards have a real world value that I can trade for. If I have a Honus Wagner card I can get cash for it from someone.

These fifa packs contain cards or items that you cannot trade or sell. It's not nearly the same.
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Loot boxes are a wager of money against a desired outcome.
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Tropicalwood posted...

I mean loot boxes don't have any monetary gain or anyway to actually get money from them. So in a way it's actually worse than gambling.

I agree, because you dont even OWN anything of it..

Afterall, from what i know you technically dont own games, or movies for that matter, just a license to use them, hence why Piracy is a thing...

Dont quote me on that though, but if my understanding is correct then it is indeed much worse.
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chrono625 posted...

Zeus posted...

Maze_ posted...

solosnake posted...

The reasoning behind that is that players always receive a specific number of items in each pack, and secondly, EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money.

What kind of argument is that?

The same reasoning why buying packs of trading cards isn't gambling. Technically, the logic is sound.

No it isnt.

My trading cards have a real world value that I can trade for. If I have a Honus Wagner card I can get cash for it from someone.

These fifa packs contain cards or items that you cannot trade or sell. It's not nearly the same.

Honestly though, I've always been surprised that TCG packs aren't considered gambling...

But yeah, this whole loot box thing is scummy as hell. While I'll tolerate pure cosmetics in lootboxes, I think that if you're spending real money on a game, you should know exactly what you are getting. I feel the same way about TCG packs by the way... <_< Not a fan of the random nature of them.
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DavidWong posted...

Mystery_Mission posted...

chill02 posted...

haha fuck EA

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solosnake posted...

EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money. There is no economic value assigned to them.

So they're basically yelling out that the money you spend on microtransations is literally worthless lol
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QassTank posted...

Honestly though, I've always been surprised that TCG packs aren't considered gambling...

Here I can see the theory behind it.

The problem is, is that those cards are mine. I can sell them and I can trade them to someone who wants them.

With these loot boxes you dont even technically own anything.

You cant even sell your account either as per their TOS.
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chrono625 posted...

QassTank posted...

Honestly though, I've always been surprised that TCG packs aren't considered gambling...

Here I can see the theory behind it.

The problem is, is that those cards are mine. I can sell them and I can trade them to someone who wants them.

With these loot boxes you dont even technically own anything.

You cant even sell your account either as per their TOS.

That actually helps their case that it isnt gambling.

Unfortunately I dont see this as the legal definition of gambling. People are forking over cash for a random assortment of digitial information that you neither own nor has any intrinsic monetary value.

Its stupidity, not gambling.
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CapnMuffin posted...

chrono625 posted...

QassTank posted...

Honestly though, I've always been surprised that TCG packs aren't considered gambling...

Here I can see the theory behind it.

The problem is, is that those cards are mine. I can sell them and I can trade them to someone who wants them.

With these loot boxes you dont even technically own anything.

You cant even sell your account either as per their TOS.

That actually helps their case that it isnt gambling.

Unfortunately I dont see this as the legal definition of gambling. People are forking over cash for a random assortment of digitial information that you neither own nor has any intrinsic monetary value.

Its stupidity, not gambling.

You're putting up real money for a chance of getting a payout of something highly valuable. Nobody gambles in the hopes of getting a bad outcome, nobody buys lootboxes in the hopes of getting a bad outcome.
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EverDownward posted...

CapnMuffin posted...

chrono625 posted...

QassTank posted...

Honestly though, I've always been surprised that TCG packs aren't considered gambling...

Here I can see the theory behind it.

The problem is, is that those cards are mine. I can sell them and I can trade them to someone who wants them.

With these loot boxes you dont even technically own anything.

You cant even sell your account either as per their TOS.

That actually helps their case that it isnt gambling.

Unfortunately I dont see this as the legal definition of gambling. People are forking over cash for a random assortment of digitial information that you neither own nor has any intrinsic monetary value.

Its stupidity, not gambling.

You're putting up real money for a chance of getting a payout of something highly valuable. Nobody gambles in the hopes of getting a bad outcome, nobody buys lootboxes in the hopes of getting a bad outcome.

Yes. And? Im not sure what point you were making. Im sorry.
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I really hope that something gets done banning loot boxes. This arguement is so stupid because you don't know what you're gonna get when you buy them.
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CapnMuffin posted...

And

Oh, nothing. I'm just guffawing about how closely similar the practice of buying a lootbox and gambling are.
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QassTank posted...

Honestly though, I've always been surprised that TCG packs aren't considered gambling...

MTG gets around it in essentially the same way as EA is here, which is by saying that the cards have no official value. Cards are exactly as rare as they claim to be and it doesn't matter if the secondary market dictates that some are more valuable than others, because you can't purchase singles directly from Wizards.
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EverDownward posted...

CapnMuffin posted...

chrono625 posted...

QassTank posted...

Honestly though, I've always been surprised that TCG packs aren't considered gambling...

Here I can see the theory behind it.

The problem is, is that those cards are mine. I can sell them and I can trade them to someone who wants them.

With these loot boxes you dont even technically own anything.

You cant even sell your account either as per their TOS.

That actually helps their case that it isnt gambling.

Unfortunately I dont see this as the legal definition of gambling. People are forking over cash for a random assortment of digitial information that you neither own nor has any intrinsic monetary value.

Its stupidity, not gambling.

You're putting up real money for a chance of getting a payout of something highly valuable. Nobody gambles in the hopes of getting a bad outcome, nobody buys lootboxes in the hopes of getting a bad outcome.

There is no payout. The items don't have any cash value, and you don't want them to.

Giving them cash value means your gaming hobby is officially income, and is therefore taxable.
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I remember when parents said the same shit about Pokmon cards as a kid.

Not that I'm defending EA and their shitty business practices lol.
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darkjedilink posted...

EverDownward posted...

CapnMuffin posted...

chrono625 posted...

QassTank posted...

Honestly though, I've always been surprised that TCG packs aren't considered gambling...

Here I can see the theory behind it.

The problem is, is that those cards are mine. I can sell them and I can trade them to someone who wants them.

With these loot boxes you dont even technically own anything.

You cant even sell your account either as per their TOS.

That actually helps their case that it isnt gambling.

Unfortunately I dont see this as the legal definition of gambling. People are forking over cash for a random assortment of digitial information that you neither own nor has any intrinsic monetary value.

Its stupidity, not gambling.

You're putting up real money for a chance of getting a payout of something highly valuable. Nobody gambles in the hopes of getting a bad outcome, nobody buys lootboxes in the hopes of getting a bad outcome.

There is no payout. The items don't have any cash value, and you don't want them to.

Giving them cash value means your gaming hobby is officially income, and is therefore taxable.

That's fine. I'm fine if gaming dies.
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I use to play Madden religiously many years back. I ended up selling my madden ultimate team cards on eBay for nearly one grand. I was shocked and pleased with the economic value of those fake virtual cards.

CapnMuffin posted...

chrono625 posted...

QassTank posted...

Honestly though, I've always been surprised that TCG packs aren't considered gambling...

Here I can see the theory behind it.

The problem is, is that those cards are mine. I can sell them and I can trade them to someone who wants them.

With these loot boxes you dont even technically own anything.

You cant even sell your account either as per their TOS.

That actually helps their case that it isnt gambling.

Unfortunately I dont see this as the legal definition of gambling. People are forking over cash for a random assortment of digitial information that you neither own nor has any intrinsic monetary value.

Its stupidity, not gambling.

That's why this is a debate. Right now, they aren't gambling if we go by strictly the legal definition. The question is, should that definition adapt?

Because, despite that lack of legal definition, it hits on most of not all of the benchmarks of gambling. You have a wager of money against a desired outcome. You have all of the pleasure receptors in the brain firing in an identical fashion to how they would if you were actually gambling with money. Despite lack of legal definition, from a purely psychological and psychiatric perspective, there's functionally little difference between a slot machine and a lot box. And, given that the money going in doesnt change, the simple fact that there's no money coming out doesnt mean that similar regulations shouldn't apply.

The illegality of children gambling has nothing to do with the government not wanting children to get money. It has everything to do with the psychological and addictive qualities gambling possesses. The exact same qualities inherent in lootboxes.

Hence why people are saying the letter of the law needs to change, to include these systems that straight up didn't exist to be regulated when existing legislation was written

Edit: there's also the argument that the "they have no value" argument is bullshit because no company would create, market, and sell a product that they deem to have "no value" because by assigning a price to it you are by definition giving it value and hoping the consumer sees value enough in it to buy it. But that's another debate.
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CapnMuffin posted...

That actually helps their case that it isnt gambling.

Unfortunately I dont see this as the legal definition of gambling. People are forking over cash for a random assortment of digitial information that you neither own nor has any intrinsic monetary value.

Its stupidity, not gambling.

I agree. I hate lootboxes and EA, but I don't see it as gambling
of course they could change the definition of gambling, but eh
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Are they going to go after Booster Packs now?
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