Current Events > EA responds to Regulators Classifying Some Loot Boxes as Gambling

(+) Yeah! (+)

chrono625 posted...

Zeus posted...

Maze_ posted...

solosnake posted...

The reasoning behind that is that players always receive a specific number of items in each pack, and secondly, EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money.

What kind of argument is that?

The same reasoning why buying packs of trading cards isn't gambling. Technically, the logic is sound.

No it isnt.

My trading cards have a real world value that I can trade for. If I have a Honus Wagner card I can get cash for it from someone.

These fifa packs contain cards or items that you cannot trade or sell. It's not nearly the same.

So basically it's even less like gambling than cards or figurines because you don't even have a secondary market with assigned values? So what's the issue then?
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solosnake posted...

We have already been working with many of them for some time, and have evaluated and established that programs like FIFA Ultimate Team are not gambling. He also confirmed that EA does not believe that FIFA Ultimate Team or loot boxes, in general, are gambling.

Not surprised that they are saying this lol fuck EA
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Zeus posted...

because you don't even have a secondary market with assigned values

What do you mean by assigned values?
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Zeus posted...

chrono625 posted...

Zeus posted...

Maze_ posted...

solosnake posted...

The reasoning behind that is that players always receive a specific number of items in each pack, and secondly, EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money.

What kind of argument is that?

The same reasoning why buying packs of trading cards isn't gambling. Technically, the logic is sound.

No it isnt.

My trading cards have a real world value that I can trade for. If I have a Honus Wagner card I can get cash for it from someone.

These fifa packs contain cards or items that you cannot trade or sell. It's not nearly the same.

So basically it's even less like gambling than cards or figurines because you don't even have a secondary market with assigned values? So what's the issue then?

DarkBuster22904 posted...

That's why this is a debate. Right now, they aren't gambling if we go by strictly the legal definition. The question is, should that definition adapt?

Because, despite that lack of legal definition, it hits on most of not all of the benchmarks of gambling. You have a wager of money against a desired outcome. You have all of the pleasure receptors in the brain firing in an identical fashion to how they would if you were actually gambling with money. Despite lack of legal definition, from a purely psychological and psychiatric perspective, there's functionally little difference between a slot machine and a lot box. And, given that the money going in doesnt change, the simple fact that there's no money coming out doesnt mean that similar regulations shouldn't apply.

The illegality of children gambling has nothing to do with the government not wanting children to get money. It has everything to do with the psychological and addictive qualities gambling possesses. The exact same qualities inherent in lootboxes.

Hence why people are saying the letter of the law needs to change, to include these systems that straight up didn't exist to be regulated when existing legislation was written

Edit: there's also the argument that the "they have no value" argument is bullshit because no company would create, market, and sell a product that they deem to have "no value" because by assigning a price to it you are by definition giving it value and hoping the consumer sees value enough in it to buy it. But that's another debate.

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EA and Activision both have got to go
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the first argument is the one that sells it for me

in gambling, there's always the possibility to lose everything and gain absolutely nothing.

with loot crates, you'll always gain something. even if you personally feel like it's 'useless' or 'worthless', you're still actually getting something for the money you put in.
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Johnny_Nutcase posted...

Another fine example of a piece of shit company, and every single fucking time, people will go out and buy their shit. EVERY fucking time. It's like why bother anymore? They should let the CEO of EA just leave little shit fragments with every copy sold just to say it's a collectors edition. Sales would go through the roof.

Just buy used. Let the idiots pay full price for the bullshit while you buy a cheaper copy where the company doesn't see a dime.
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Guerrilla Soldier posted...

the first argument is the one that sells it for me

in gambling, there's always the possibility to lose everything and gain absolutely nothing.

with loot crates, you'll always gain something. even if you personally feel like it's 'useless' or 'worthless', you're still actually getting something for the money you put in.

I promise you that if casinos changed slot machines to spit out one square of toilet paper every time you spun and then said "ok, it's not gambling, you always get something, kids can do it now," that wouldn't fly. I fail to see why it should fly with game publishers
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DavidWong posted...

Mystery_Mission posted...

chill02 posted...

haha fuck EA

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LightHawKnight posted...

Are they going to go after Booster Packs now?

Won't somebody think of the childreeeeennnnnn?!?!
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No, this isn't gambling. Gambling gives you at least some chance of winning money back. Lootboxes don't.

Lootboxes aren't gambling, they're worse than gambling.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

No, this isn't gambling. Gambling gives you at least some chance of winning money back. Lootboxes don't.

Lootboxes aren't gambling, they're worse than gambling.

I agree. Lootboxes are terrible and are the worst addition to gaming in years.
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Maze_ posted...

solosnake posted...

The reasoning behind that is that players always receive a specific number of items in each pack, and secondly, EA does not provide or authorize any way to cash out those items for real-world money.

What kind of argument is that?

To be fair, not being able to cash them out for real world money is an important disclaimer to the law in most places. It's the reason why a lot of things are allowed and also why there have been tons of illegal gambling establishments over the years that have gambled with items and not offered any way to cash them out there, but conveniently just so happen to know a pawn shop up that's right the street that would pay good money for said item(s) that they're totally in no way affiliated with.

Not saying it's a good model, but legally speaking, it is an important distinction to have.
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DarkBuster22904 posted...

Guerrilla Soldier posted...

the first argument is the one that sells it for me

in gambling, there's always the possibility to lose everything and gain absolutely nothing.

with loot crates, you'll always gain something. even if you personally feel like it's 'useless' or 'worthless', you're still actually getting something for the money you put in.

I promise you that if casinos changed slot machines to spit out one square of toilet paper every time you spun and then said "ok, it's not gambling, you always get something, kids can do it now," that wouldn't fly. I fail to see why it should fly with game publishers

The analogy doesn't quite match up because the purpose of gambling is to make more money than you put in. Toilet paper doesn't give you that.
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Darmik posted...

DarkBuster22904 posted...

Guerrilla Soldier posted...

the first argument is the one that sells it for me

in gambling, there's always the possibility to lose everything and gain absolutely nothing.

with loot crates, you'll always gain something. even if you personally feel like it's 'useless' or 'worthless', you're still actually getting something for the money you put in.

I promise you that if casinos changed slot machines to spit out one square of toilet paper every time you spun and then said "ok, it's not gambling, you always get something, kids can do it now," that wouldn't fly. I fail to see why it should fly with game publishers

The analogy doesn't quite match up because the purpose of gambling is to make more money than you put in. Toilet paper doesn't give you that.

Well sure it does. That toilet paper is worth fractions of a cent. Minimal value, but still 'something.' More than empty air. At least as much of a something as the filler filling most loot boxes.

Why, with enough duplicates of them, you might get enough for a whole roll, which is worth what, a dollar? Because that's basically exactly what loot boxes do with their deliberately shitty filler
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You just described Chuck E Cheeses.
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CapnMuffin posted...

You just described Chuck E Cheeses.

And at least there you can go down the street and get that pencil sharpener for a quarter from a store. More than you can do with a bad lootbox
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DarkBuster22904 posted...

Darmik posted...

DarkBuster22904 posted...

Guerrilla Soldier posted...

the first argument is the one that sells it for me

in gambling, there's always the possibility to lose everything and gain absolutely nothing.

with loot crates, you'll always gain something. even if you personally feel like it's 'useless' or 'worthless', you're still actually getting something for the money you put in.

I promise you that if casinos changed slot machines to spit out one square of toilet paper every time you spun and then said "ok, it's not gambling, you always get something, kids can do it now," that wouldn't fly. I fail to see why it should fly with game publishers

The analogy doesn't quite match up because the purpose of gambling is to make more money than you put in. Toilet paper doesn't give you that.

Well sure it does. That toilet paper is worth fractions of a cent. Minimal value, but still 'something.' More than empty air. At least as much of a something as the filler filling most loot boxes.

Why, with enough duplicates of them, you might get enough for a whole roll, which is worth what, a dollar? Because that's basically exactly what loot boxes do with their deliberately shitty filler

People gamble to make money. You can't make money off lootboxes.

People buy lootboxes to get their shitty consumables, common weapon drop, a rare cosmetic etc. They're guaranteed what the lootbox promises even if they're never guaranteed a specific item.

I'm not defending the practice but it's not really fitting the same hole.

Does it prey on a similar addictive personality? Yes. But it's still it's own unique thing.

I do think people will regret what they're wishing for with Government regulation with this stuff. That has never worked well for video games. Battlefield 2 being seen as a failure is the ideal scenario and I hope it happens more.
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Darmik posted...

DarkBuster22904 posted...

Darmik posted...

DarkBuster22904 posted...

Guerrilla Soldier posted...

the first argument is the one that sells it for me

in gambling, there's always the possibility to lose everything and gain absolutely nothing.

with loot crates, you'll always gain something. even if you personally feel like it's 'useless' or 'worthless', you're still actually getting something for the money you put in.

I promise you that if casinos changed slot machines to spit out one square of toilet paper every time you spun and then said "ok, it's not gambling, you always get something, kids can do it now," that wouldn't fly. I fail to see why it should fly with game publishers

The analogy doesn't quite match up because the purpose of gambling is to make more money than you put in. Toilet paper doesn't give you that.

Well sure it does. That toilet paper is worth fractions of a cent. Minimal value, but still 'something.' More than empty air. At least as much of a something as the filler filling most loot boxes.

Why, with enough duplicates of them, you might get enough for a whole roll, which is worth what, a dollar? Because that's basically exactly what loot boxes do with their deliberately shitty filler

People gamble to make money. You can't make money off lootboxes.

People buy lootboxes to get their shitty consumables, common weapon drop, a rare cosmetic etc. They're guaranteed what the lootbox promises even if they're never guaranteed a specific item.

I'm not defending the practice but it's not really fitting the same hole.

Does it prey on a similar addictive personality? Yes. But it's still it's own unique thing.

I do think people will regret what they're wishing for with Government regulation with this stuff. That has never worked well for video games. Battlefield 2 being seen as a failure is the ideal scenario and I hope it happens more.

People gamble to gain something. That something doesnt have to be money. It basically just has to have value. And as soon as money is put in, like it or not, it has value. Because nothing bought is value-less. If it were, it wouldn't be bought.

Moreover, I've said it already. Gambling isn't age restricted just because the government doesnt want kids winning money. Anymore than alcohol is restricted to stop kids having fun social nights with friends.

I agree, government regulation shouldn't be the answer. It'll be overblown, overreaching, and a net negative. Unfortunately, unless the fucknuggets in charge reel it in and recognize the implications of the shit they're pulling, its inevitable
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Darmik posted...

People gamble to make money.

Not 100% true.

People gamble for multiple reasons other than just wanting to win money.

People buy lootboxes for similar reason such as an endorphin rush.

And a good start to fixing this would be to eliminate any chance of pulling duplicates.
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I'm a bit out of the loop on loot boxes---are they necessary to play the game? Do you have to buy them to do well against others in these games? If so, that is kind of crappy.

Definitely not gambling, though, and shouldn't be considered as such. Someone mentioned "Chuck E Cheese". Chuck E Cheese would more closely be considered gambling because the person does have a chance to only spend a few dollars, hit the jackpot, and get a prize valued at $50, then resell it. Unlikely, but possible. You can't sell the items in the game.

Same with trading cards, you pay money hoping to get a certain card... sometimes you end up with ****.

Or online gambling sites meant for entertainment purposes (you never win real money) where you can spend money to earn more coins that could buy you extra perks or some little outfit or something.

Loot boxes just do not sound like gambling.
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Capn Circus posted...

Loot boxes just do not sound like gambling.

Wagering something for an undetermined outcome sounds like gambling/betting to me.
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DarkBuster22904 posted...

Edit: there's also the argument that the "they have no value" argument is bullshit because no company would create, market, and sell a product that they deem to have "no value" because by assigning a price to it you are by definition giving it value and hoping the consumer sees value enough in it to buy it. But that's another debate.

That's not how it works. They don't have to believe something they are selling has value or even the value they assign to it. They could over-under price it, or knowingly sell something that is worthless. Look at the diamond industry. Look at bottled water.

Either way, though, as scummy as loot boxes are, they are something entirely different from gambling. If we change the definition as you suggest, literally every transaction becomes gambling.