Current Events > Who created this "toxic masculinity" narrative?

(+) Yeah! (+)

IloveJesus posted...

Aki_Narukami posted...

Pus_N_Pecans posted...

Aki_Narukami posted...

soyboys

This is a classic example of toxic masculinity.

explain

If you had actually read the topic you would understand.

its used by feminine men to compensate

Aki_Narukami posted...

IloveJesus posted...

Aki_Narukami posted...

Pus_N_Pecans posted...

Aki_Narukami posted...

soyboys

This is a classic example of toxic masculinity.

explain

If you had actually read the topic you would understand.

its used by feminine men to compensate

I see.

If I'd known you struggled that much with reading comprehension I wouldn't have suggested you read through the topic.

Alas, written words is the only method I have to communicate with you, so I suppose you'll just never understand.
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all im getting from this is that girls love you like a sister

Aki_Narukami posted...

all im getting from this is that girls love you like a sister

Given that I've been with my partner for 7 years, I don't really care whether or not other women are attracted to me. However, as far as classic alpha male traits go, getting with women was one of the ones I was better at when I was younger.

Thanks for demonstrating exactly what toxic masculinity is though.
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The simplest examples would be:
- Stop crying! Only girls cry, are you a girl?!
- Be a man!

Toxic masculinity is real and almost every male is victim to it or was a victim to it when they were younger.
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If you've ever been mocked for doing something "unmanly". If you've ever lamented about how men can't show emotion, or that you need to be an asshole Chad to get anywhere in life. Then you have been talking about toxic masculinity. It's simply being mocked for not conforming to the negative aspects of strict gender roles, or acting in a way that is damaging to you or others because you believe that is the "correct" way to be a man. It happens in women too, but in ways tied to strict interpretations of their gender roles.
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Just an example of why most men and women will not buy into the theory of toxic masculinity. Crap like this is everywhere and it's why we don't believe feminism peddlers when they say it's not about blaming men or vilifying masculinity.


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Funbazooka posted...

Just an example of why most men and women will not buy into the theory of toxic masculinity. Crap like this is everywhere and it's why we don't believe feminism peddlers when they say it's not about blaming men or vilifying masculinity.

Just because some idiots want to latch onto a valid point and bastardise it for their own pathetic agenda, doesn't mean the initial point isn't valid.
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No true scotsman.
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Funbazooka posted...

No true scotsman.

Or perhaps just a realisation that what some people mean by a term isn't what all people mean by a term.

I'm a staunch believer that toxic masculinity exists. I am by no means a feminist, and I certainly don't hate men. Therefore, arguing that it's a term which is only used by man hating feminists is demonstrably false.
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wah_wah_wah posted...

The23rdMagus posted...

Howl posted...

Nobody wants men to be like that, feminists don't either and men who are like that are utterly despised by women.

I mean, I'm not really one for board shorts, but I'm discovering that Toms are comfy, brunch is worth getting up for, classic lit is interesting, and acknowledging my emotions isn't a bad thing.

Toxic masculinity is the insistence that these things are inherently bad and "wrong" for a man to be, because they are typically "feminine".

And it's not even women that want men to be a certain way. It's other men. He's basically denying himself all of this because of a box some other dude created for him.

To all those who think all women want stoic lumberjacks who never shave and always leave the toilet seat up, David Bowie. Enough said.

it's BOTH men and women contributing to the market value of certain masculine traits in boys/men and aggressively/passive aggressively pressuring them to conform for perceived benefits even if that means potential for douchey behavior as collateral damage

one of the reasons feminism exists is because behaviors of men can have an impact on how female society operates
surprise surprise, the behaviors of women can also impact male society and influence the future actions of men in multiple ways including negatively

i laugh whenever anyone bothers implying that trends of toxic masculinity is only sourced by men when there's thousands of tiger moms in the world crackin the whip on their sons to be ideal successful cutthroat grandbaby producing machines that can be bragged about at book clubs....

fuck ive been to campus feminist events focusing on toxic masculinity and its the intelligent presenters who bother to bring up somewhere in their material that hey "btw ladies, its not just men causing this issue, sometimes we as women add to it too, lets work on changing that as well"

feminists with brains realize that most men can't fix that problem on their own
vulnerable boys and men are swimmin in the dirty fishtank and its already killin them
to change the water they need help from outside too
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NonDairyMiltank posted...

it's BOTH men and women contributing to the market value of certain masculine traits in boys/men and aggressively/passive aggressively pressuring them to conform for perceived benefits even if that means potential for douchey behavior as collateral damage

By and large other men. I don't think a woman came up with any of the definitions of "soyboy' on Urban Dictionary.

wah_wah_wah posted...

NonDairyMiltank posted...

it's BOTH men and women contributing to the market value of certain masculine traits in boys/men and aggressively/passive aggressively pressuring them to conform for perceived benefits even if that means potential for douchey behavior as collateral damage

By and large other men. I don't think a woman came up with any of the definitions of "soyboy' on Urban Dictionary.

I don't doubt that men have a huge influence, but women have influence in other ways, particularly given that one of the traits that men are supposed to have (according to society at large) is being able to win the approval of women.
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IloveJesus posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

NonDairyMiltank posted...

it's BOTH men and women contributing to the market value of certain masculine traits in boys/men and aggressively/passive aggressively pressuring them to conform for perceived benefits even if that means potential for douchey behavior as collateral damage

By and large other men. I don't think a woman came up with any of the definitions of "soyboy' on Urban Dictionary.

I don't doubt that men have a huge influence, but women have influence in other ways, particularly given that one of the traits that men are supposed to have (according to society at large) is being able to win the approval of women.

Your entire theory is premised on the idea that men really want women that are pressuring them to be someone they are not. Maybe its not necessarily that youre feminine, but youre a coward that has no sense of identity. Women will like guys who show more feminine traits - they are not a monolith of desires. Men and women generally dislike cowards that bend to pressure. Cowardice is not a gender-exclusive character trait.

There's no need to intentionally avoid more reasonable versions of an idea in a desperate attempt to ignore it completely.

wah_wah_wah posted...

Your entire theory is premised on the idea that men really want women that are pressuring them to be someone they are not.

No, it's based on the fact certain masculine traits are seen as desirable by both men and women.
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wah_wah_wah posted...

NonDairyMiltank posted...

it's BOTH men and women contributing to the market value of certain masculine traits in boys/men and aggressively/passive aggressively pressuring them to conform for perceived benefits even if that means potential for douchey behavior as collateral damage

By and large other men.

which doesn't equal "And it's not even women that want men to be a certain way."

its not "close enough" either

yeah some women DO want boys and men to be a certain way because they think its ideal and beneficial
i gave ONE example in my other post, theres plenty more than that in the world

men make up the majority of direct contributors to toxic masculinity issues, but women also add their significant share too
and its not a small number of women contributing, some don't even realize (or care) theyre doing it
partly because they dont really try to ever look at things in a male perspective
to women like that, boys and men are supposed to be a certain way and thats that...
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Prestoff posted...

legendary_zell posted...

Toxic masculinity doesn't mean that all masculinity is toxic. It means that a specific level or expression of it is toxic. Even good traits can be toxic if they are expressed in the wrong way. This topic is made several times a week on this board and elsewhere on the internet. If you don't get it by now, I don't know what to tell ya.

Incels are a pretty clear example of toxic masculinity. One element of a version of masculinity is to measure yourself through sexual conquests and desirability, they do that to such an extent that they take their lack of desirability as an identity and it warps them into hating women and more successful men. That's a toxic form of masculinity, hence toxic masculinity.

It's what makes guys clown each other for being emotional and makes them bottle everything inside until they explode in anger or fall into depression. That's a trait associated with masculinity and it's def toxic....hence toxic masculinity. That's not attacking all men or disparaging masculinity as a concept.

Good post

Yep only one in this whole topic full of Hoth alts
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NonDairyMiltank posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

NonDairyMiltank posted...

it's BOTH men and women contributing to the market value of certain masculine traits in boys/men and aggressively/passive aggressively pressuring them to conform for perceived benefits even if that means potential for douchey behavior as collateral damage

By and large other men.

which doesn't equal "And it's not even women that want men to be a certain way."

its not "close enough" either

yeah some women DO want boys and men to be a certain way because they think its ideal and beneficial
i gave ONE example in my other post, theres plenty more than that in the world

men make up the majority of direct contributors to toxic masculinity issues, but women also add their significant share too
and its not a small number of women contributing, some don't even realize (or care) theyre doing it
partly because they dont really try to ever look at things in a male perspective
to women like that, boys and men are supposed to be a certain way and thats that...

I mean come on, have you ever left a message board in your life? It isn't women that are doing the majority the ball busting, it's men.

IloveJesus posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

Your entire theory is premised on the idea that men really want women that are pressuring them to be someone they are not.

No

Yes. That's what you're saying. Women put pressure on men to act a certain way, and rather than simply reject the pressure, you think it is valid that a man would then have to change (putting blame on women). But I ask, isn't someone changing who they are to conform to what someone else wants them to be, a huge coward in the first place?

wah_wah_wah posted...

NonDairyMiltank posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

NonDairyMiltank posted...

it's BOTH men and women contributing to the market value of certain masculine traits in boys/men and aggressively/passive aggressively pressuring them to conform for perceived benefits even if that means potential for douchey behavior as collateral damage

By and large other men.

which doesn't equal "And it's not even women that want men to be a certain way."

its not "close enough" either

yeah some women DO want boys and men to be a certain way because they think its ideal and beneficial
i gave ONE example in my other post, theres plenty more than that in the world

men make up the majority of direct contributors to toxic masculinity issues, but women also add their significant share too
and its not a small number of women contributing, some don't even realize (or care) theyre doing it
partly because they dont really try to ever look at things in a male perspective
to women like that, boys and men are supposed to be a certain way and thats that...

I mean come on, have you ever left a message board in your life? It isn't women that are doing the majority the ball busting, it's men.

IloveJesus posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

Your entire theory is premised on the idea that men really want women that are pressuring them to be someone they are not.

No

Yes. That's what you're saying. Women put pressure on men to act a certain way, and rather than simply reject the pressure, you think it is valid that a man would then have to change (putting blame on women). But I ask, isn't someone changing who they are to conform to what someone else wants them to be, a huge coward in the first place?

You're not making any sense. Are you seriously completely writing off the possibility that women could also negatively contribute to it?

I honestly do think toxic masculinity is a thing. I witnessed some of it growing up. It came from the "dumb and proud" type dudes who didn't do well in school but thought they were the shit because of sports. I guess you could call it jock culture, though I can think of some people who weren't even jocks who also acted this way.

Basically just anti-intellectual dudes who act tough. I now smile when I think about how these guys must be financially struggling.
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I mean toxic masculinity is pretty much objectively a thing and you'll notice the only people itt suggesting otherwise are socially inept neanderthals who unironically use terms like "soyboys" and "cucks" and aren't smart enough to grasp that it's not saying masculinity in itself is toxic

These people are part of the problem

i_eat_the_booty posted...

You're not making any sense. Are you seriously completely writing off the possibility that women could also negatively contribute to it?

No I'm saying these are choices men make themselves. People can tell you who to be, but if you make the choice to be that person, it's not "their fault" it's yourself. Even if you were to continue to make that argument that denies any sense of personal responsibility for one's actions, men still do far more of the pressuring and bringing up "welp women do it too!" is just clumsy deflection.

creativerealms posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

Effeminate males who need to "win" by saying masculinity is just a toxic social construct anyway.

People who think this don't know what "toxic masculinity" is, it is not an attack on masculinity as a whole.

This.

Of course there are some radical feminists who stretch the meaning of toxic masculinity far beyond reasonability...
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wah_wah_wah posted...

NonDairyMiltank posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

NonDairyMiltank posted...

it's BOTH men and women contributing to the market value of certain masculine traits in boys/men and aggressively/passive aggressively pressuring them to conform for perceived benefits even if that means potential for douchey behavior as collateral damage

By and large other men.

which doesn't equal "And it's not even women that want men to be a certain way."

its not "close enough" either

yeah some women DO want boys and men to be a certain way because they think its ideal and beneficial
i gave ONE example in my other post, theres plenty more than that in the world

men make up the majority of direct contributors to toxic masculinity issues, but women also add their significant share too
and its not a small number of women contributing, some don't even realize (or care) theyre doing it
partly because they dont really try to ever look at things in a male perspective
to women like that, boys and men are supposed to be a certain way and thats that...

I mean come on, have you ever left a message board in your life? It isn't women that are doing the majority the ball busting, it's men.

IloveJesus posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

Your entire theory is premised on the idea that men really want women that are pressuring them to be someone they are not.

No

Yes. That's what you're saying. Women put pressure on men to act a certain way, and rather than simply reject the pressure, you think it is valid that a man would then have to change (putting blame on women). But I ask, isn't someone changing who they are to conform to what someone else wants them to be, a huge coward in the first place?

I don't see conformity within society as an act of cowardice and I don't believe that you do either.
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IloveJesus posted...

I don't see conformity within society as an act of cowardice and I don't believe that you do either.

Even if you want to argue that unquestioned conformity is not cowardice, it certainly is your responsibility if you choose to conform or not. You don't get to blame other people for your own decisions.

Some first world sheltered dolt most likely
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wah_wah_wah posted...

IloveJesus posted...

I don't see conformity within society as an act of cowardice and I don't believe that you do either.

Even if you want to argue that unquestioned conformity is not cowardice, it certainly is your responsibility if you choose to conform or not. You don't get to blame other people for your own decisions.

I'm not convinced that blame is even the right word. All I've claimed is that both men and women influence the issue.

If you feel that you've never been influenced by women, more power to you. I'm not sure many people can claim that though.
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IloveJesus posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

IloveJesus posted...

I don't see conformity within society as an act of cowardice and I don't believe that you do either.

Even if you want to argue that unquestioned conformity is not cowardice, it certainly is your responsibility if you choose to conform or not. You don't get to blame other people for your own decisions.

I'm not convinced that blame is even the right word. All I've claimed is that both men and women influence the issue.

If you feel that you've never been influenced by women, more power to you. I'm not sure many people can claim that though.

My point is you can accept or deny that influence if you so choose. It doesn't happen against your will.

wah_wah_wah posted...

My point is you can accept or deny that influence if you so choose. It doesn't happen against your will.

Maybe so, if you are completely self aware.

A lot of young people aren't.
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wah_wah_wah posted...

i_eat_the_booty posted...

You're not making any sense. Are you seriously completely writing off the possibility that women could also negatively contribute to it?

No I'm saying these are choices men make themselves. People can tell you who to be, but if you make the choice to be that person, it's not "their fault" it's yourself. Even if you were to continue to make that argument that denies any sense of personal responsibility for one's actions, men still do far more of the pressuring and bringing up "welp women do it too!" is just clumsy deflection.

Something you seem to not be grasping is that toxic masculinity is generally indoctrinated in to men as youth. So it can be much harder to make the choice to not be toxic when toxicity has been normalized to the point that you don't know its toxic.
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IfGodCouldDie posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

i_eat_the_booty posted...

You're not making any sense. Are you seriously completely writing off the possibility that women could also negatively contribute to it?

No I'm saying these are choices men make themselves. People can tell you who to be, but if you make the choice to be that person, it's not "their fault" it's yourself. Even if you were to continue to make that argument that denies any sense of personal responsibility for one's actions, men still do far more of the pressuring and bringing up "welp women do it too!" is just clumsy deflection.

Something you seem to not be grasping is that toxic masculinity is generally indoctrinated in to men as youth. So it can be much harder to make the choice to not be toxic when toxicity has been normalized to the point that you don't know its toxic.

I don't believe in "indoctrination"... you always have a choice to see the impact of your actions and be someone else.

wah_wah_wah posted...

IfGodCouldDie posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

i_eat_the_booty posted...

You're not making any sense. Are you seriously completely writing off the possibility that women could also negatively contribute to it?

No I'm saying these are choices men make themselves. People can tell you who to be, but if you make the choice to be that person, it's not "their fault" it's yourself. Even if you were to continue to make that argument that denies any sense of personal responsibility for one's actions, men still do far more of the pressuring and bringing up "welp women do it too!" is just clumsy deflection.

Something you seem to not be grasping is that toxic masculinity is generally indoctrinated in to men as youth. So it can be much harder to make the choice to not be toxic when toxicity has been normalized to the point that you don't know its toxic.

I don't believe in "indoctrination"... you always have a choice to see the impact of your actions and be someone else.

That's very naive.
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It is naive to look at a dude that goes out and rapes a girl and then someone chimes in, "He didn't have a choice! He was indoctrinated! It is society's fault!" No, he did it. He is responsible for his own actions.

wah_wah_wah posted...

It is naive to look at a dude that goes out and rapes a girl and then someone chimes in, "He didn't have a choice! He was indoctrinated! It is society's fault!" No, he did it. He is responsible for his own actions.

Where did rape come into it?
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You can pretty much use your arguments to justify any evil thing you want. I'm sure Pinochet and Reagan and Stalin and whoever else would love that argument that they don't have responsibility, they were simply "indoctrinated" and had no other choice. Those who suffer from them rightfully see this as total bullshit.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Something you seem to not be grasping is that toxic masculinity is generally indoctrinated in to men as youth.

Ironic considering that feminist theories and conspiracies usually don't occur to people unless they're taught it. Kids are usually indoctrinated with feminism in college.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

normalized to the point that you don't know its toxic.

In other words, they're sinners and they don't even know they're being bad because they're not believers in Feminism. If only they believed, they'd realize how truly harmful they're being.

Feminism is your religion.
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wah_wah_wah posted...

You can pretty much use your arguments to justify any evil thing you want. I'm sure Pinochet and Reagan and Stalin and whoever else would love that argument that they don't have responsibility, they were simply "indoctrinated" and had no other choice. Those who suffer from them rightfully see this as total bullshit.

Except I'm not justifying anything. Only passing comment in how it works.

Funbazooka posted...

In other words, they're sinners and they don't even know they're being bad because they're not believers in Feminism.

Bullshit. I'm not a feminist and in still firmly believe toxic masculinity exists.
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Funbazooka posted...

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Something you seem to not be grasping is that toxic masculinity is generally indoctrinated in to men as youth.

Ironic considering that feminist theories and conspiracies usually don't occur to people unless they're taught it. Kids are usually indoctrinated with feminism in college.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

normalized to the point that you don't know its toxic.

In other words, they're sinners and they don't even know they're being bad because they're not believers in Feminism. If only they believed, they'd realize how truly harmful they're being.

Feminism is your religion.

I don't really believe in "feminism" I just straight believe in treating everyone equal, and think the fact the we "need" feminism and anti-discriminatory laws shows how fucked up we have been as a species for so long.
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Funbazooka posted...

Ironic considering that feminist theories and conspiracies usually don't occur to people unless they're taught it. Kids are usually indoctrinated with feminism in college.

Also what's your point? Are you saying that college kids are not susceptible to the things they are taught by the people they look to for leadership?
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It's real as fuck. The less power the phrase "You're not a man if _____" has over people, the better off everyone is.
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wah_wah_wah posted...

You can pretty much use your arguments to justify any evil thing you want. I'm sure Pinochet and Reagan and Stalin and whoever else would love that argument that they don't have responsibility, they were simply "indoctrinated" and had no other choice. Those who suffer from them rightfully see this as total bullshit.

You're missing the point. And the fact of the matter is right and wrong are entirely subjective based on a person's upbringing, mental health and a plethora of other factors that lead them to being the people they are. In the nature vs. nurture argument I am a firm believer that both sides play a vital role in who a person becomes.
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Pretending that toxic masculinity isn't a core tenet of feminism is not a convincing tactic.
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its literally for wimpy males to use as an excuse

women like masculine men

Funbazooka posted...

Ironic considering that feminist theories and conspiracies usually don't occur to people unless they're taught it. Kids are usually indoctrinated with feminism in college.

Nah, it's always been pretty blatant to me. I've just not always known there was a term for it, and like, no shit, of course I don't. No one's born knowing a word.
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IfGodCouldDie posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

You can pretty much use your arguments to justify any evil thing you want. I'm sure Pinochet and Reagan and Stalin and whoever else would love that argument that they don't have responsibility, they were simply "indoctrinated" and had no other choice. Those who suffer from them rightfully see this as total bullshit.

You're missing the point. And the fact of the matter is right and wrong are entirely subjective based on a person's upbringing, mental health and a plethora of other factors that lead them to being the people they are. In the nature vs. nurture argument I am a firm believer that both sides play a vital role in who a person becomes.

Is there ever a situation where rape is right? You'd have to be an idiot to believe that. It is not so "subjective" as you'd think. Someone who repeatedly harms others knows exactly what they are doing and they don't care. If you hear a woman screaming and you go "meh subjective"... I mean you're a total idiot.

wah_wah_wah posted...

Is there ever a situation where rape is right?

you're literally arguing against the voices in your head

nobody claimed this

jesus christ

Aki_Narukami posted...

wah_wah_wah posted...

Is there ever a situation where rape is right?

you're literally arguing against the voices in your head

nobody claimed this

jesus christ

Nobody claimed this, but this is a valid response to the idea that morality is entirely subjective. Yes, it is. To people who are not moral.

Funbazooka posted...

Pretending that toxic masculinity isn't a core tenet of feminism is not a convincing tactic.

So if you had a son and a daughter and they were playing with your daughters dolls, do think it's perfectly fine to tell your son to stop playing with dolls because they are for girls or do you think its inconsequential that he plays with them and that it's more important that they are developing a bond together? Which one of those scenarios is a feminist agenda in your mind, if either?
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l33t_iRk3n_Rm33 posted...

It's real as fuck. The less power the phrase "You're not a man if _____" has over people, the better off everyone is.

"You're not a good/decent person if _____" is a vastly more prevalent attitude.

Is this not a "toxic" attitude by the same standard?
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