Board 8 > Ace Attorney Topic Part 5: The Pursuit (Spoilers for AA1-6, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I like how Elbird's Logic Chess basically feels like you're playing Punch-Out!!
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I dunno. It's not my favourite case in the game (that'd be E2-3 probably), but I didn't really get this sense of dragging from the case that some of you did? But I don't think I ever seriously entertained Dogen as the killer, and certainly not Elbird or Sahwit. It's Ace Attorney 101 - always suspect the authority figure! Since I figured it was Roland, I saw the case as building logically (... kinda...) towards her so the pacing of it was roughly as I predicted. I don't really personally remember any one part of the case dragging too much, but it is long as a whole (though E2-1 was a pretty big indication of the type of case length the game was going to have).

Like many here I really enjoyed the prison as a setting; a very valuable addition to the series given it's about the justice system. In some ways it's the most important thing to come out of this game.
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Fortunately, E2-2 Beginning is mercifully short. It's mostly used to introduce Ray, Courtney, and Sebastian, as well as the concept of the P.I.C. I like that AAI2 reverses course somewhat when it comes to Edgeworth and Manfred von Karma through Ray's characterization.
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well part of it is that E2-2 End in general is kinda bad since the murder method and especially the coverup are pretty stupid and Roland is not a great opponent (or a great character in general)

she's not as bad as Dogen but still
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Yeah I didn't really have any issues with much of that, I guess. The coverup is a bit silly but no worse than the AA usual for me. Roland's not my favourite but nor do I see what's especially poor about her either. Little Thief... is not my favourite gameplay gimmick so I'll agree with you on that one.

I more like the case for setting and character reasons than case specifics (which are average at best), I'll admit, but those don't actively bother me like say 1-5's or E1-3's do.
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NeoElfboy posted...

The coverup is a bit silly but no worse than the AA usual for me.

yeah here's where I'd disagree with you

it's a big mess and I'm still not entirely sure I understand what all Roland did and why

like maybe only 6-2 does as poor of a job of explaining itself as E2-2 does

AA coverups and plots may be silly at times but they usually at least explain themselves sufficiently
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I think one of the reasons E2-2 drags for me also is that it introduces SO MANY characters

like, you have to meet Ray, then you meet Courtney and Sebastian, then you have to meet Simon, then all of the case-specific characters, and it's just... yeesh, there's SO MANY characters. It's kind of weird that E2-1 doesn't introduce you to any of them at all.

Anyway, I actually kind of like the last investigation and the showdown with Roland though. I actually like Roland a fair bit, I think she's a fun opponent, and I REALLY like her motive for murder, even though they totally reverse course on it and just make her an evil fuckhead in E2-5, whatever.

Yeah, E2-2 has a pretty big cast for a second case (13 characters by my count on the spreadsheet and 6 of those are pretty important new characters), so it does have to spend a lot of time introducing you to them.

and yeah I think it's E2-5 that sours me on Roland more than anything

I think the showdown with her is kinda tedious and gets bogged down in the BUT YOU DON'T HAVE THAT ONE TRULY DECISIVE PIECE OF EVIDENCE DO YOU cycle (and she pulls the same number in E2-5, too, augh) that plagues both AAI games on occasion, but she at least had a unique motivation for her murder and they made her a little sympathetic until E2-5 undoes it.
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It would have been an incredibly great twist, for me anyway, if it turned out that Roland actually WAS well-meaning. She's just so obviously evil with her whole 'my prisoners are all family!' schtick so it would be kind of funny if it turned out she was actually sorta benevolent and Dogen really was the bad guy there

One of my favorite things that AAI2 does is pit bad guys against each other, whether it's Dogen against Roland, Roland against Knightley, Keyes against all the Anti-Yatagarasu, or even Gustavia against Dover. Three of the five victims are openly terrible people, and none of the culprits are particularly sympathetic other than the brief tease they give you with Roland.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Yeah, I think the reason E2-2 feels so long is that you don't know what the endgame is or when it is coming, and it comes pretty late. I think the AAI series suffers from this in general, since the trial format keeps things flowing REALLY smoothly, whereas the AAI games can feel like they're plodding along without you knowing if you're in the middle or the end of the case.

I actually prefer AAI in general in this sense, because the trial format can make me impatient when a witness takes up too much time on the stand. It's the promise that things are ending, without things actually ending, that frustrates me most.

It's what I dislike most about E1-5 and E2-2, but I also find it frustrating for AA cases like 1-5, 5-3, and especially 5-5.
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not sure when 5-3 had a false climax
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the false climax only applies to e2-2. complaints about the other cases are more related to how long the cases go after everything of interest has already been solved
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yeah I don't think that applies to 5-3 either

or even 1-5 for that matter because the case ends pretty shortly after you solve the last aspect of the mystery

1-5 drags but that's mostly just the first half (and the first day in particular)
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I like how AAI2 presents some interesting legal/moral quandaries, like if it would have better if Simon had stayed in jail for killing Knightley, even though he technically didn't do it, so it would prevent him from following through on the rest of his plot. They also really subvert your expectations with Simon by even Edgeworth being convinced this guy has to be innocent and couldn't possibly be a killer...only to be completely wrong, but you don't find out until much later.

also man Edgeworth/Kay are noticeably much better together in AAI2 than in AAI1
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Paratroopa1 posted...

I think one of the reasons E2-2 drags for me also is that it introduces SO MANY characters

like, you have to meet Ray, then you meet Courtney and Sebastian, then you have to meet Simon, then all of the case-specific characters, and it's just... yeesh, there's SO MANY characters. It's kind of weird that E2-1 doesn't introduce you to any of them at all.

Anyway, I actually kind of like the last investigation and the showdown with Roland though. I actually like Roland a fair bit, I think she's a fun opponent, and I REALLY like her motive for murder, even though they totally reverse course on it and just make her an evil fuckhead in E2-5, whatever.

I actually like the larger casts of AAI2. I think some cases in the series suffer from not having enough characters, and the series in general draws such a hard line of not having bit players (probably far art asset reasons). By contrast you get cases like 6-3 where like... it wants to be this big, epic case (Leon's play time figures have it as the longest non-final case in the series IIRC?) but there are like almost no characters! You know that Be'leeb has to be involved in the crime because aside from Datz, who else is there? Cases always feel a bit meetier when there are more personalities at play - both because the list of potential suspects is longer and (and this part applies even when the culprit is obvious) the interplay of different agendas is a lot of fun to untangle.

In the case of AAI2, while I don't think any of Ray, Courtney, or Sebastian are A+ characters, I liked watching them and figuring out what made them tick. In the specific case of E2-2: Frank, Elbird and Dogen all added to that setting and that case. (I'm kinda on board on hating Dogen's role in the overarching plot, but his E2-2 role of "criminal with connections outside the prison strong enough to threaten the warden" is cool.)

Agreed that Roland would have been better if not for the E2-5 retcon. I do agree that she's reasonably fun.

Leon: I don't really recall having any issues following her coverup myself but I'm a bit foggy on some of the details at this point so I'd have to replay the case to write a more detailed defence. Since I played/watched it more recently... I also didn't have any issues following the explanation of 6-2. It's totally ridiculously unbelievable! But not that hard to follow.
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NeoElfboy posted...

Leon: I don't really recall having any issues following her coverup myself but I'm a bit foggy on some of the details at this point so I'd have to replay the case to write a more detailed defence. Since I played/watched it more recently... I also didn't have any issues following the explanation of 6-2. It's totally ridiculously unbelievable! But not that hard to follow.

More than anything, it's that they both do a poor job of explaining what the culprit was doing. Like in 6-2, the sides being reversed and Retinz putting blood on the wrong side of the hole is barely touched on at all despite the fact that it should be a pretty big deal. It's one of those "blink and you miss it" situations.

like if you were to ask me to list the what, how, and why of every Ace Attorney case, I could list them all with reasonable confidence off the top of my head except for 6-2 and E2-2 because the details are so convoluted and poorly explained

the fact that I need to replay E2-2 or 6-2 just to get the details straight means they made it too complicated and ambiguous for their own good
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I love the callback to Frank's first testimony in 1-1 with the, "I saw him lying there...A man...not moving...Dead!" line.
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I'll give Dogen this much: Dude's got a pretty good theme
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I like how Sebastian's sprite bounces backward whenever Courtney interjects while he's speaking instead of just having him "slide" out of the way like most characters. It's a nice little touch.

also man this case has you chasing a lot of red herrings
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You know I don't really get why everyone seems to dislike Dogen, I think he's kinda cool/interesting

but I will say, it's really fucking bizarre how hard they sell him

Paratroopa1 posted...

but I will say, it's really fucking bizarre how hard they sell him

this is the worst part of it by far
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Eh, I think Dogen's character as a concept is pretty cool, but he's just so stereotypically evil. He spouts so many cliched lines. I don't think any conversation you have with him is very interesting.

Anyway, E2-2 Middle complete. Now for the long haul.
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although I will say that Dogen's "boringness" might be partly the fault of the translation because I've heard dowolf say a few times that the fan translation kind of left out some of the nuance of his character and speech patterns

and speaking of the translation, it's generally good, but man, it's driving me nuts with its weird usage of punctuation
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I am the outlier who likes Dogen AND Blaise a lot. and I even like Roland!
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My own issue with Dogen is that the game seems to glorify him as some sort of total assassin badass who breaks out of prison and evades police whenever the hell he feels like it. He feels very much like an anime character rather than someone who might conceivably exist in real life. I'm fine with that for comic characters but Dogen is taken very seriously. As I said, I think he works better than E2-2 where he's a bit more down-to-earth, than in E2-5.

Blaise... he feels like a carbon copy of a Phoenix Wright villain rather than treading any new ground, and the fire/tears gimmicks both fell kinda flat for me to boot. I like how he impacts Sebastian's character, though.
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NeoElfboy posted...

My own issue with Dogen is that the game seems to glorify him as some sort of total assassin badass who breaks out of prison and evades police whenever the hell he feels like it. He feels very much like an anime character rather than someone who might conceivably exist in real life. I'm fine with that for comic characters but Dogen is taken very seriously. As I said, I think he works better than E2-2 where he's a bit more down-to-earth, than in E2-5.

agree with everything here
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Blaise feels like some guy they pumped up to be the most powerful person in the entire Ace Attorney universe (with the ego to match), but E2-5 undercuts him super hard. I just couldn't take him seriously after that. E2-5 in general does disservice to most of its major villains, except Simon, really.
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are you saying that you'd be high on Blaise if E2-5 didn't happen? I've seen you suggest the same with Roland.

I usually don't take that stuff nearly as strong as you do. like, I think 3-2 Adrian is a tragedy but she's still great because of her 2-4 role. it just doesn't factor in that much.

that said, I don't mind Blaise in E2-5 as he leads to some of the better stuff. unless you blame him for the trial, anyway. but I don't.
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Well, I also think 3-2 Adrian is still pretty darn good, so yeah. Regardless, that's a cameo in the next game, so I don't think that's in the same category as this.

I don't know that I'd be high on either one of them, but E2-5 definitely kicked the props out from under them and negated what I did enjoy about them in their first appearances. I mean, I suppose I should be giving Simon credit for making Blaise look utterly incompetent, but dude got owned by Sebastian, too.

Like, Blaise's whole thing in E2-4 is that he's so powerful that he can freely admit his guilt to Edgeworth and he feels like nobody can touch him. That power and authority gets taken from him in E2-5, and he's nothing. Maybe that's part of the "appeal" of the character, but again, I can't take the dude seriously as a major threat after that.
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yeah, I'm fine with that. Blaise set up the climax of E2 and only goes down thanks to Courtney playing him. E2-5 is also Blaise being Blaise - cause that's all he's ever been - until Sebastian is able to get his. so Blaise lets 2, maybe 3 characters get great moments. I think he's a good heel.
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yeah but the difference is that I don't give Blaise credit for getting punked

the characters who do the punking get credit for that

Like the thing with E2-5 Blaise is that him just being Blaise is not great when he's so toothless now. It's not like nailing a really competent villain with a good plan or trying to break through someone who's got a stone wall of authority, like Gant, Alba, or E2-4 Blaise. It's just Sebastian putting him out of his misery.

which is great for Sebastian because that dude desperately needed something to give him confidence but it's not like you really outwitted Blaise to do it since Simon already did all the outwitting for you
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I don't think we'll go anywhere here, but Gant is basically that after he refuses to testify. that's a great moment for Phoenix, one of his best. I give Gant credit for that moment just as much as I do Phoenix. his sniveling presence allowed Phoenix to go over big.
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Eh, Gant's still got the cloth up his sleeve at that point (including the swerve into a bad ending). The only thing that lets you beat him even after he can't testify is the fact that Lana took a picture of the body on the suit of armor. Phoenix still has to outsmart Gant to win at that point with the cloth and evidence law. I don't think those two situations are comparable.
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it's weird how Regina looks younger even though this takes place over a year after 2-3
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so Regina said there's a Wild Animal Tamer, Magician, and Ventriloquist Division at the Berry Big Circus at the moment, but only the Wild Animal Tamer and Ventriloquist Divisions have subordinates

that means Ben has an apprentice which is kind of mind blowing to think about
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I can sort of see that working out with "Trilo" giving out the orders.
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LeonhartFour posted...

so Regina said there's a Wild Animal Tamer, Magician, and Ventriloquist Division at the Berry Big Circus at the moment, but only the Wild Animal Tamer and Ventriloquist Divisions have subordinates

that means Ben has an apprentice which is kind of mind blowing to think about

I interpreted that as Ben being the apprentice to Trilo. Despite her mentioning ventriloquism as a concept, she did seem to think that Ben and Trilo were separate entities, and almost got engaged to the dummy.
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Yeah, but I like to think this is a (slightly) more mature Regina since she would actually have to understand what ventriloquism is and not just believe Trilo is a singer.
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one good thing about regina in e2-2 is that you play as edgeworth so you don't have to worry about his being attracted to her

blaise was bad in e2-4 except for the logic chess and the entertainingly named 'i'm gonna bully you.' his role in e2-5 isn't great but hardly comes as a disappointment.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

one good thing about regina in e2-2 is that you play as edgeworth so you don't have to worry about his being attracted to her

you just get Ray instead which is even worse

although even Edgeworth admits that there's something captivating about Regina

(and I think that's all it was for Phoenix, too. I never got the vibe that he thought she was anything more than innocently charming, same as Maya)
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LeonhartFour posted...

you just get Ray instead which is even worse

oh god i'd erased this from memory
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I feel kinda bad for Sebastian because he actually makes a good point for once (he asks how the blood got wiped up in the cell if the dog was the killer), only for Dogen to concede that Anubis had indeed been trained to erase bloodstains after attacking.
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yes Edgeworth

feel the pain of having an autopsy report thrown in your face out of nowhere
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man E2-2 End is rough and we're not even to the part where Roland becomes the suspect

I keep falling asleep too so this isn't helping
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LeonhartFour posted...

I feel kinda bad for Sebastian because he actually makes a good point for once (he asks how the blood got wiped up in the cell if the dog was the killer), only for Dogen to concede that Anubis had indeed been trained to erase bloodstains after attacking.

I would like to know how thats accomplished, because the image in my head is Anubis peeing on the bloodstains.
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he probably just licks them up
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Whew, finally hit the save point in E2-2 End.

Man, Elbird has some of the best damage animations in the series.
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I finally finished both Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice!

My stats according to my Activity Log/Software Library
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Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Dual Destinies
Play Time - 51:04
Times Played - 13
Average Play Time: 3:55
First Played: 3/1/2018
Last Played: 4/16/2018

^ I got more Play Time due to Turnabout Reclaimed, which I enjoyed and was worth the price of admission IMO.

Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Spirit of Justice
Play Time - 54:56
Times Played - 10
Average Play Time - 5:29
First Played: 4/17/2018
Last Played: 4/30/2018

^ I was surprised at the length of this game. Cases 3 and 5 took me quite a few days to complete. At some point I will be sure to get the Special Episode which I heard was worth getting. Although I heard both of the Asinine Attorney DLC appear to be short in length from what I heard, I think I'll still end up getting them.
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Yeah, SoJ is the longest game in the series.

I honestly think you'd be better off just watching the Asinine Attorney skits on YouTube unless you just want to pay money to support the series.
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