Current Events > In an RPG with no levelling, how can random encounters be worthwhile?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Context: I'm working on a remake of my RPG Maker project (see sig); I plan to significantly rewrite the story, use custom graphics, as well as using a completely custom-made engine instead of RPG Maker.

For this remake, I'm wanting to ditch the level-up system altogether. Instead, stats are more or less consistent throughout the game; equipment might lead to minor changes (perhaps up to "slightly over double the original stat" if one were to set up their equipment solely focusing on raising one stat) but nothing permanent. Basically, the idea here is that the game should reward players for thinking of how to best set up their equipment and how to best make use of available actions in battle, rather than rewarding them for spending hours killing slimes.

However, after some thought, one issue I can see - this more or less renders random encounters worthless, and there's no reason to bother fighting them. I want to avoid this, but at the same time, I don't want to do something where level grinding is just substituted by item-drop grinding or money-grinding to buy more equipment.

One possible way to resolve this is, of course, to do away with random encounters in favor of visible-on-map, unpassable-without-fighting encounters. In effect, every battle would become a boss in a way - some just more minor than others, and no doubt a few of the minor ones would show up multiple times.

Another option is to do away with the Escape option, or at least restrict it (perhaps you can only escape by using a rare item, rather than it being an always-available free command). Provided the encounter rate is low enough, this might be a suitable alternative.

One other idea I had is some kind of "bounty hunter" system, where you get little / no rewards from fighting the monsters directly, but can claim a monetary / item reward elsewhere, with limits on how much you can get from the same type of enemy. This would put a limit on item / money grinding. It should be noted though, that since equipping duplicates of the same item wouldn't be allowed anyway, to some extent the game would already limit how far grinding can be taken - you could perhaps stock up on 99 potions, but that's about the most you could achieve via it.

Any other thoughts here?

Edit: Just to be clear, this would be an RPG with a turn-based battle system, almost certianly a CTB system like in Final Fantasy X. They also don't strictly speaking have to be random, as such - I'm open to different ideas there too.
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Tag; I like this concept but need to think more about your question
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>RPG
>No levels

Choose one.
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DarkTransient posted...

One possible way to resolve this is, of course, to do away with random encounters in favor of visible-on-map, unpassable-without-fighting encounters. In effect, every battle would become a boss in a way - some just more minor than others, and no doubt a few of the minor ones would show up multiple times.

Epic Battle Fantasy 3 and 4 do this, and that's a fantastic RPG.
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Look at Chrono Cross for a good example of how to do no leveling/fixed leveling right.
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Farm to craft items, equipment, and skills.

DuranOfForcena posted...

if it doesn't have leveling, it's not an RPG

lol
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You could find a way to make battles part of the narrative. Undertale does this amazingly, though it does have levels

DuranOfForcena posted...

if it doesn't have leveling, it's not an RPG

Okay, so what genre would you define a game as if it has RPG-like overworld gameplay, RPG-like battle system, RPG-like stats, and pretty much every other trait that defines an RPG except for that you don't permanently level up?
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make battles themselves fun to play instead of requiring a tangible reward to get good feedback from the player

Second_Chances posted...

make battles themselves fun to play instead of requiring a tangible reward to get good feedback from the player

This would be part of the plan either way. ;)
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Reminds me of Paper Mario Sticker Star.

That game sucked, and battling was a worthless waste of time.
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Maybe your character develops based on how you handle the random encounters.
And random encounters don't have to be combat, specifically.
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Implement a system that works as a replacement for leveling, like an in dept crafting system, and the best way to improve gear comes from monster loot?

Like some sort of way to keep that RPG wheel going without experience and such.
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SapphireOfChaos posted...

Reminds me of Paper Mario Sticker Star.

That game sucked, and battling was a worthless waste of time.

Came in to post this
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If the combat is fun and varied then the random encounters can be fun to play in their own right. This is having to make a choice what feedback loop you are focusing on. Is the player playing to enjoy the combat, or make little numbers go up gradually? If the fun of the combat is there then people will want to experience it. That's where you seem to be heading. Just remember to keep in your mind why you want the player to play and what you want the to enjoy.

Fuck leveling and levels. Good luck with this!
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randomized!
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You could simply not have random battles at all and just have fixed battles that will give weapons, armor, or actual stat upgrades upon completion.

An idea I had for a game is something similar to what Illusion of Gaia did. You clear a group of enemies, you get a fixed stat increase. Maybe you could also hide stat boosts or stat-boosting items in the environment for people to search for, to give an extra edge.

In order for this to work and not be completely abusable, though, you'd have to make it so each encounter can only be fought once, and any enemies, once killed, are dead forever. But you could include optional rooms and areas, which would naturally have optional enemies and equipment, to give you an edge if the current main story boss or segment is too tough for players.
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DuranOfForcena posted...

SapphireOfChaos posted...

Reminds me of Paper Mario Sticker Star.

That game sucked, and battling was a worthless waste of time.

this

players need to feel like they are being rewarded for doing the things the game requires them to do. if you have battles that don't give the players anything for beating them, it is going to be viewed as a waste of time, every time.

I think there are ways to reward players without requiring them to get XP and gain levels.

Maybe you can collect monster skulls and arrange them in a house or get renown for killing things to get discounts in town stores. I mean those are pretty generic but you get the idea.

Or heck maybe it could be like a European Truck Simulator-style thing where you have to work for hire until you can kill enough things to have the money to hire your own people >_>.
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A couple thoughts came to mind:

1) Treat battles more in the sense of action-adventure games. Zelda has monsters in the overworld; you can see them, and sometimes you can't avoid them, and they don't typically provide rewards except occasionally in quests (like The Witcher, kinda). Make them less random, in other words

2) Create an index/glossary of monsters that only fills in as you defeat each individual type. It won't provide material benefits (money/loot/stats) but nonetheless will motivate a certain type of player who wants to "catch em all" so to speak.

3) Give money to players for completing battles, and have them purchase the ability to escape battles with that money (it can be explained in-game as hiring other adventurers to kill the monster for you, possibly)
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Maybe make them so that everytime you fight certain type of enemy, like normal blue slimes, you learn something new. It can be a skill like passive or usable attack/buff/magic or just being more efficient taking down water slimes, learn information about some secret somewhere. You could also learn how to avoid those certain enemies so you can more easily sneak past them.

This would make you fight every type of enemy at least handful of times, and if you make every enemy worthy foe it could work and feel rewarding. fighting same type enemy after learning/getting everything could still be slightly worthwhile if they drop something, like money, or you could just run from those more easily.
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Dropped consumables and the like? Maybe a weapon/armor/magic upgrade system that requires materials dropped from mobs
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AgressiveCampin posted...

Dropped consumables and the like? Maybe a weapon/armor/magic upgrade system that requires materials dropped from mobs

Not consumables. Anything but consumables.

You don't want people to waste resources on a battle only to possibly get some of the resources back.

Materials and upgrades, sure. But making them consumables is why Sticker Star was so fucking horrible

If leveling is removed, and equipment is the only way to affect stats, then random encounters are either drop grinding or money grinding. Which is functionally the same damn thing.

You should probably just drop random encounters entirely if the goal is to cut grinding. You can instead make the battles more like a tactical RPG or XCOM or even an RTS, where your loadout and positioning are superior to raw stats.

The thing about this style is that it doesn't mesh well with a traditional world map with towns and dungeons. You may want to try chapter-based levels or a dungeon crawler with a hub town.

But ultimately, you want some sort of positive feedback loop from fighting. In a traditional RPG, fighting gives you experience and money, which are used to make your character stronger, which lets you fight stronger enemies, which give you more experience and money...
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DuranOfForcena posted...

Hicks233 posted...

If the fun of the combat is there then people will want to experience it.

TC is talking about turn-based RPG combat. there is absolutely no realm where turn-based RPG combat can be a fun experience in itself. it needs to have rewards, or it is pointless and useless.

I found the combat in Valkyria Chronicles, Fallout Tactics, Jagged Alliance 2, Battle Isle: Incubation and XCOM (recent one) enjoyable. Turn based doesn't have to mean shit or boring combat.
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I think at this stage, I'm more leaning towards the "all encounters are basically bosses" option, aside from many of them being optional. Perhaps with some mechanism to re-fight them later for those who want to for whatever reason, but with no rewards. Possibly with new encounters in old areas spawning when you reach certain milestones in the game. Encounters could still drop loot, but you basically would only ever be able to get a limited amount (presumably some of which is money, which you have flexibility over how you use).

The other option I'm still considering is to put a cap on how much reward can be obtained from the same enemy - whether directly or indirectly.

I don't really think I want to get rid of Escape altogether while still keeping random (or respawning) encounters. I feel that might get too annoying.
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Loot.

Loot is the answer.

R_Jackal posted...

Loot.

Loot is the answer.

Hexagon posted...

R_Jackal posted...

Love.

Love is the answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9XQ0VoEU" data-time="
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play shadow tower abyss.

There has to be some reward of progression that comes from fighting enemies. Character growth through stats and stories are why people play RPGs. If things stay the same, it doesn't feel like you're doing anything.
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Usual rewards for fighting in RPG's

-Exp
-Drop
-Crafting mats
-Improving stats or skills
-Money

Take all that out and there isn't much left to fight for. Might as well make a fighting game.
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slothica posted...

Usual rewards for fighting in RPG's

-Exp
-Drop
-Crafting mats
-Improving stats or skills
-Money

Take all that out and there isn't much left to fight for. Might as well make a fighting game.

idk why but this post really made me want an RPG with Bushido Blade style combat/random battles.

Even the random idiot bandits could end you in a single strike.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Hexagon posted...

R_Jackal posted...

Love.

Love is the answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9XQ0VoEU" data-time="

ugh such a good band
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DuranOfForcena posted...

if it doesn't have leveling, it's not an RPG

Do you consider Castlevania SotN an RPG?
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slothica posted...

Usual rewards for fighting in RPG's

-Exp
-Drop
-Crafting mats
-Improving stats or skills
-Money

Take all that out and there isn't much left to fight for. Might as well make a fighting game.

On one hand, I do want loot - just not experience. Items or equipment, yes, sure. Steals too.

But on the other hand, I don't want these to just become an EXP-replacement that people grind for. Which is why I want to think of a way to limit them, preferably without a forced "suddenly enemies stop dropping stuff" mechanic - I'm not opposed to the mechanic in and of itself, but there needs to be some decent explanation for it at least (hence the thought of maybe a bounty system).
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Is the vid in your signature the old version or the new version?
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LordFarquad1312 posted...

>RPG
>No levels

Choose one.

there are rpg that give randomly stats gain based on your actions in the fights
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marc55 posted...

LordFarquad1312 posted...

>RPG
>No levels

Choose one.

there are rpg that give randomly stats gain based on your actions in the fights

Saga Frontier was horrible for that.
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marc55 posted...

there are rpg that give randomly stats gain based on your actions in the fights

So, levels.
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DarkTransient posted...

One possible way to resolve this is, of course, to do away with random encounters in favor of visible-on-map, unpassable-without-fighting encounters. In effect, every battle would become a boss in a way - some just more minor than others, and no doubt a few of the minor ones would show up multiple times.

do this imo

random encounters are already not a great mechanic. Removing the "oh well, at least I get exp" from them makes them even worse.

When you think about it, the random encounters in rpgs rarely take any thought, planning, strategy, etc. They're generall not interesting fights either. All the interesting design is put into fixed boss battles. So why not just have slightly more frequent boss fights than you would otherwise, all interesting & individually designed fights, and skip the random encounters completely?

This also means you have more fine control over how strong a player might be for any given fight (since there's no infinite level grinding) and can balance the fights appropriately. It also means if you want some way to refight bosses you can make a refight arena that temporarily rolls back stats to the "expected" value for that boss fight
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ForestLogic posted...

Is the vid in your signature the old version or the new version?

Old. Apart from a few engine test videos on my Youtube channel, with placeholder graphics / musics, there's not much content of the remake out there yet.
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DarkTransient posted...

ForestLogic posted...

Is the vid in your signature the old version or the new version?

Old. Apart from a few engine test videos on my Youtube channel, with placeholder graphics / musics, there's not much content of the remake out there yet.

What are you using to make the engine for the new one?

Curious in this cuz I'm doing something incredible similar to you, where I made a really crappy game long ago with RPGXP an wanna remake it and make it legit. In my case though I'm using RMMV to do it, though I'm considering learning Game Maker Studio instead.
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SapphireOfChaos posted...

Reminds me of Paper Mario Sticker Star.

That game sucked, and battling was a worthless waste of time.

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chrono cross had random battles that gave you outright stats and also materials for forging items.
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Have the enemies drop useful items such as healing, materials, or money. Or even items that can temporarily boost your stats like Speed X from Pokemon
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