Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 165: The State of the Secretaries

(+) Yeah! (+)

Corrik just wants to say he's right.
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HaRRicH posted...

Corrik just wants to say he's right.

Actually, I thought you all would have had something valid between the lot of you. But, instead you all just can't say nothing negatively affected your life from Trump last year.

It is okay.

It is also funny how hypocritical you are.

If someone says something anecdotal that is contradicted by someone else's annecdotal / company policy such as the Kmart crap. It is "telling someone they are lying about what happens in their life".

But, when it happens on the other end with no contradicting information. The person saying what happened is lying and it is business as usual.

Yinz are all just hypocrites and you never haven't been.

Go back in your logs and look how many times you accused me of saying you are lying about your account (in which I have only done once about something I knew was wrong and was shown to be wrong). Then apply your own arguments to yourselves. You talk about Trump criticizing Trump. You criticize yourselves just as much.
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I really wish you guys would stop humoring Corrik and engaging him like a person. It would be extremely difficult to claim these topics weren't several times better when he was off the board, and now they're devolving back into shit again. Just don't acknowledge his posts, they very clearly have no value.
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http://michiganradio.org/post/us-senate-candidate-wants-buy-guns-homeless-people

Icehawk, lets vote for this guy
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LapisLazuli posted...

I really wish you guys would stop humoring Corrik and engaging him like a person. It would be extremely difficult to claim these topics weren't several times better when he was off the board, and now they're devolving back into shit again. Just don't acknowledge his posts, they very clearly have no value.

I still feel like hes the only conservative voice we have that ever argues in good faith
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Corrik does not argue in good faith.
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Jakyl25 posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

I really wish you guys would stop humoring Corrik and engaging him like a person. It would be extremely difficult to claim these topics weren't several times better when he was off the board, and now they're devolving back into shit again. Just don't acknowledge his posts, they very clearly have no value.

I still feel like hes the only conservative voice we have that ever argues in good faith

Is that sarcasm?

Even if that were the case he has very clearly proven he doesn't deserve that position. It would just mean we have no conservatives here worth arguing with, and that's not really something we can do anything about. They have to come to us. We can't rent conservatives to hang out here, even if ours is deffective.
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No its not

Maybe I just cant see through him like I can with others, but I feel like hes genuine
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Like...

"This guy means what he says."

OK, but what he's saying is fucking gutter filth that makes it hard to even view him as human, much less reasonable.

He gets a pass because he means it? That makes it worse. Corrik being genuine makes him even worse than people like Ulti and Seph.

People elected Trump because he "meant what he says".
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You just want a left echo chamber here which is fine, but then you also go into the "conservative" bullshit topic to argue with them still. So, it doesn't add up. I do not know what the end game is here for many of you. You want no dissenting opinions yet also seek them out too. What gives?

Yeah, someone didn't say Trump is destroying the world and asked you to provide a way he negatively affected your life last year. Wooo. That is a toughie.

I can tell you there is years Obama didn't make my life worse. It isn't like it is some major phenomena. A lot of what happens in DC doesn't affect me. However, you can't even admit it if it would be true regarding Trump. Which shows where your bias lays.
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That topic is an actual fucking joke that exists only to make fun of and I've never posted in the thing. Don't want to disrupt that Official Circumcision Topic.
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Do I need to call in Han (as the guy directly involved) to cite the most egregious example of Corrik being a legitimate bad faith actor that I can recall offhand?

Because that was pretty fucking egregious
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LapisLazuli posted...

That topic is an actual fucking joke that exists only to make fun of and I've never posted in the thing. Don't want to disrupt that Official Circumcision Topic.

It is a joke of a thread. Why make yours a joke in the opposite direction?

Whatever happened to discourse. It has to be the way you see it or it is wrong or it is bullshit? Not the way the world works. It is why politics has become some polarized. People only wanna hear the shit they want to hear. It's dumb.
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Corrik, I do actually have something for you. The new tariffs are raising commodity prices for my company even though we arent directly affected. This is going to hurt our bottom line we dont know how much yet but its not going to be pretty. Hes claiming it will help the steel industry (which is dubious) but his profound lack of understanding of economics combined with stupid neo-mercantilist philosophy are going to have consequences among other sectors and have a good chance of hurting people more than helping them. Especially if we get hit with retaliation.

As for 2017, Im a white guy with a good degree and a corporate job. Im fine. But my moms health care became obnoxious after gutting the individual mandate (along with the following uncertainty), my transgender cousin has to deal with increased harassment from emboldened assholes screaming Make America Great Again, and dumbass DeVos, a well known clown in Michigan, is making the lives of a couple friends I know in teaching much harder.

Thats personal. I know you dont care about the cultural aspects much, but remember that I am getting off lightly. If I had the wrong demographics, my life would be much worse.
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We had plenty of discourse here when you were gone because we still have varying opinions and aren't a big hivemind. The echochamber argument is absolute nonsense.

The only thing that devolves the discourse into sludge is you people.

Everyone agreeing Trump sucks isn't the results of an echochamber, it's called having a head on your shoulders.
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Regaro posted...

Do I need to call in Han (as the guy directly involved) to cite the most egregious example of Corrik being a legitimate bad faith actor that I can recall offhand?

Because that was pretty fucking egregious

Could you go into this a bit? I've mostly kinda viewed Corrik like Jakyl does.
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trdl23 posted...

Corrik, I do actually have something for you. The new tariffs are raising commodity prices for my company even though we arent directly affected. This is going to hurt our bottom line we dont know how much yet but its not going to be pretty. Hes claiming it will help the steel industry (which is dubious) but his profound lack of understanding of economics combined with stupid neo-mercantilist philosophy are going to have consequences among other sectors and have a good chance of hurting people more than helping them. Especially if we get hit with retaliation.

As for 2017, Im a white guy with a good degree and a corporate job. Im fine. But my moms health care became obnoxious after gutting the individual mandate (along with the following uncertainty), my transgender cousin has to deal with increased harassment from emboldened assholes screaming Make America Great Again, and dumbass DeVos, a well known clown in Michigan, is making the lives of a couple friends I know in teaching much harder.

Thats personal. I know you dont care about the cultural aspects much, but remember that I am getting off lightly. If I had the wrong demographics, my life would be much worse.

Thanks for providing an actual valid response. So he did negatively impact you. Edit: (Mother's premiums).

As far as the transgender thing, did it embolden them? It is debatable to me. If they are pieces of shit who are going to talk shit on transgenders they probably were no matter what. I do not think hate on transgenders is a new phenomena or one that was pushed by a Trump agenda. It is moreso morons using a slogan wrongly to continue their typical hatred they wish to spout.

If you wish to disagree on that, I would like to hear it.

The transgenders in the military thing I see being brought up a lot regarding it, but I am iffy on where that really lies. A lot of it was that paying for transitioning with the medical was bleeding the medical system. I think they just shouldn't cover it and deem it cosmetic.

I have also seen other arguments which do not hold as much weight.

But, I think it is iffy enough to not only think Trump hates Transgenders without a reasonable doubt.
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HashtagSEP posted...

Regaro posted...

Do I need to call in Han (as the guy directly involved) to cite the most egregious example of Corrik being a legitimate bad faith actor that I can recall offhand?

Because that was pretty fucking egregious

Could you go into this a bit? I've mostly kinda viewed Corrik like Jakyl does.

It was about a year ago, when we were discussing stuff around employer-provided insurance. Corrik was spouting some nonsense based on personal experience (working at Kmart IIRC), Han disproved what he was saying (also based on experience working at the same place), and Corrik's only response was basically to call Han a liar.

I could maybe go digging for the specifics when I'm at a computer, but not now.
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LapisLazuli posted...

I really wish you guys would stop humoring Corrik and engaging him like a person. It would be extremely difficult to claim these topics weren't several times better when he was off the board, and now they're devolving back into shit again. Just don't acknowledge his posts, they very clearly have no value.

The last hundred or so posts here have really been "can someone make an argument so intellectually dishonest that Board 8 won't respond to it?" and the answer has been a resounding "no".
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Kenri posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

I really wish you guys would stop humoring Corrik and engaging him like a person. It would be extremely difficult to claim these topics weren't several times better when he was off the board, and now they're devolving back into shit again. Just don't acknowledge his posts, they very clearly have no value.

The last hundred or so posts here have really been "can someone make an argument so intellectually dishonest that Board 8 won't respond to it?" and the answer has been a resounding "no".

We are just as much at fault here for letting him fester. That's why I try to engage his responders first rather than Corrik himself, because you can't actually engage with Corrik. You can PRETEND to, and he'll fake that you're actually having a conversation with him, but it's like talking to a program.
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Regaro posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

Regaro posted...

Do I need to call in Han (as the guy directly involved) to cite the most egregious example of Corrik being a legitimate bad faith actor that I can recall offhand?

Because that was pretty fucking egregious

Could you go into this a bit? I've mostly kinda viewed Corrik like Jakyl does.

It was about a year ago, when we were discussing stuff around employer-provided insurance. Corrik was spouting some nonsense based on personal experience (working at Kmart IIRC), Han disproved what he was saying (also based on experience working at the same place), and Corrik's only response was basically to call Han a liar.

I could maybe go digging for the specifics when I'm at a computer, but not now.

I am glad you brought it up because I was correct. And han disappeared regarding it and refused to acknowledge it. Han said Kmart employees did not get offered medical. I said Kmart employees who were full time absolutely were. I worked at Kmart shortly full time. He then went radio silence and refused to acknowledge it when I said he was wrong.

Like, you are arguing I am right and do not even realize it.

Also, it is funny because I just referenced this above when I talked about you being hypocrites. Good show, Reg. Showing you only read what you want to read. Not what actually happens. Surprising.
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Bruh, not only did he not disappear afterwards, he appeared several times over the next few months to continue calling you out on that shit when it came up...including the time where you acted liked he had walked it back and he came out to say fuck that.

This isn't even the first time you've made up BS about Han conceding!
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Corrik posted...

A lot of it was that paying for transitioning with the medical was bleeding the medical system.

Reminder that the military medical system spends more per year on Viagra than on transitions.
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LapisLazuli posted...

Bruh, not only did he not disappear afterwards, he appeared several times over the next few months to continue calling you out on that shit when it came up...including the time where you acted liked he had walked it back and he came out to say fuck that.

This isn't even the first time you've made up BS about Han conceding!

Dude, you are full of shit. We have asked him point blank to answer the question repeatedly. Not even just me. He has never answered it. Kmart offers full time employees medical. They are literally bound by law to.

I said how companies like Walmart and Kmart would try and limit hours under full time to not have to offer it.

Why is this even an argument? They have to.
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Not_an_Owl posted...

Corrik posted...

A lot of it was that paying for transitioning with the medical was bleeding the medical system.

Reminder that the military medical system spends more per year on Viagra than on transitions.

That is an interesting stat. But, if you are comparing a small amount of people transitioning versus however many with viagara, it doesn't seem like a relatively fair comparison does it?

Would be like saying 500,000 spend more on penicillin than 100 people spend on transitioning. Wouldn't it?

The question is do transgender transitioning cost significantly more per person than those who are not.

Edit: and yes I have no idea what it costs at all.
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Also, some food for thought regarding debates in these topics between liberals and conservatives:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/972915124032888832.html

tl;dr liberals desperately want conservatives to be rational and base their positions on actual, reasonable ideologies; conservatives don't have anything other than the resentments of white people to base their positions on and can therefore not actually be debated with.
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Not_an_Owl posted...

Also, some food for thought regarding debates in these topics between liberals and conservatives:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/972915124032888832.html

tl;dr liberals desperately want conservatives to be rational and base their positions on actual, reasonable ideologies; conservatives don't have anything other than the resentments of white people to base their positions on and can therefore not actually be debated with.

Cuz that is a serious argument. Jesus.
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Corrik posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

Corrik posted...

A lot of it was that paying for transitioning with the medical was bleeding the medical system.

Reminder that the military medical system spends more per year on Viagra than on transitions.

That is an interesting stat. But, if you are comparing a small amount of people transitioning versus however many with viagara, it doesn't seem like a relatively fair comparison does it?

Would be like saying 500,000 spend more on penicillin than 100 people spend on transitioning. Wouldn't it?

The question is do transgender transitioning cost significantly more per person than those who are not.

Edit: and yes I have no idea what it costs at all.

You are assuming the cost would be zero if we don't pay for transitioning. Other costs would increase among that group such as the cost for medical services from counseling or attempted suicide or their placement in a lower tax bracket due to less work productivity/having lower paying jobs.
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charmander6000 posted...

Corrik posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

Corrik posted...

A lot of it was that paying for transitioning with the medical was bleeding the medical system.

Reminder that the military medical system spends more per year on Viagra than on transitions.

That is an interesting stat. But, if you are comparing a small amount of people transitioning versus however many with viagara, it doesn't seem like a relatively fair comparison does it?

Would be like saying 500,000 spend more on penicillin than 100 people spend on transitioning. Wouldn't it?

The question is do transgender transitioning cost significantly more per person than those who are not.

Edit: and yes I have no idea what it costs at all.

You are assuming the cost would be zero if we don't pay for transitioning. Other costs would increase among that group such as the cost for medical services from counseling or attempted suicide or their placement in a lower tax bracket due to less work productivity/having lower paying jobs.

How is their military pay going to be lower?

Edit: I think there are studies which show that even after transitioning that suicide rates are still higher than normal.
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Interesting discussion on 538 today about whether Trump helps/hurts campaigning for you, and a good emphasis on how the media is still misinterpreting what polls mean.

clare.malone: Fox & Friends is saying that Trump saves Republicans, to be clear.

They were saying this morning that Trumps trip to Pennsylvania actually saved Saccone from a more embarrassing loss.

natesilver: THIS TALKING POINT IS SO DUMB.

micah: Wait a sec!

natesilver: ITS SO FUCKING DUMB.

AND IT SHOWS THAT PEOPLE ARE IDIOTS ABOUT INTERPRETING POLLS.

micah: You have caps lock on, I think.

natesilver: Ive seen multiple people making claims that Lamb was up 6 points in the polls until Trump came in. This is backwards in like two ways.

First, Lamb was leading by 6 points in only one poll, from Monmouth. Not the polls.

He was up by 2 points in the polling average, and the final result is going to come very, very close to that.

If you think the polls were off in this race, youre a fucking idiot, full stop.

The same would have been true if Saccone had won by 1 point or something also.

micah: Is rant over?

natesilver: Second, the Monmouth poll was actually conducted AFTER TRUMP VISITED, or at least partially after it.

The polls BEFORE Trump visited showed a TIE, on average.

Then the Monmouth poll came out AFTERWARD.

micah: Is rant over?

natesilver: If anything, the Monmouth poll suggested that Trump made matters worse for Saccone, although it did overshoot the mark a bit.

Im sorry to rant about this, Im just really, really tired of people substituting saying the polls when they really mean idiotic media narratives based on cherry-picked misinterpretations of the polls.

Even on CNN last night, there was this notion that Lamb was a big favorite based on the polls. Thats absolutely false. He was a modest favorite, at best. It shows that people have learned nothing since 2016.

micah: Is rant over?

natesilver: Its going to continue for the next three years, Micah.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Interesting discussion on 538 today about whether Trump helps/hurts campaigning for you, and a good emphasis on how the media is still misinterpreting what polls mean.

clare.malone: Fox & Friends is saying that Trump saves Republicans, to be clear.

They were saying this morning that Trumps trip to Pennsylvania actually saved Saccone from a more embarrassing loss.

natesilver: THIS TALKING POINT IS SO DUMB.

micah: Wait a sec!

natesilver: ITS SO FUCKING DUMB.

AND IT SHOWS THAT PEOPLE ARE IDIOTS ABOUT INTERPRETING POLLS.

micah: You have caps lock on, I think.

natesilver: Ive seen multiple people making claims that Lamb was up 6 points in the polls until Trump came in. This is backwards in like two ways.

First, Lamb was leading by 6 points in only one poll, from Monmouth. Not the polls.

He was up by 2 points in the polling average, and the final result is going to come very, very close to that.

If you think the polls were off in this race, youre a fucking idiot, full stop.

The same would have been true if Saccone had won by 1 point or something also.

micah: Is rant over?

natesilver: Second, the Monmouth poll was actually conducted AFTER TRUMP VISITED, or at least partially after it.

The polls BEFORE Trump visited showed a TIE, on average.

Then the Monmouth poll came out AFTERWARD.

micah: Is rant over?

natesilver: If anything, the Monmouth poll suggested that Trump made matters worse for Saccone, although it did overshoot the mark a bit.

Im sorry to rant about this, Im just really, really tired of people substituting saying the polls when they really mean idiotic media narratives based on cherry-picked misinterpretations of the polls.

Even on CNN last night, there was this notion that Lamb was a big favorite based on the polls. Thats absolutely false. He was a modest favorite, at best. It shows that people have learned nothing since 2016.

micah: Is rant over?

natesilver: Its going to continue for the next three years, Micah.

Exit polls showed Trump as favorable. So, I think it is hard to say it hurt.
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I don't particularly remember the Han addition to the Kmart stuff, but I was one who initially started asking him questions since he said he was a cashier and offered medical. I questioned it because Kmart typically does not do full time cashiers, and you had to be full time to get (crappy) medical. Like a month later he then specified he meant full time and was full time, so I dropped my particular side of it.
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HashtagSEP posted...

I don't particularly remember the Han addition to the Kmart stuff, but I was one who initially started asking him questions since he said he was a cashier and offered medical. I questioned it because Kmart typically does not do full time cashiers, and you had to be full time to get (crappy) medical. Like a month later he then specified he meant full time and was full time, so I dropped my particular side of it.

Han said he was management there and they do not offer medical to employees. I said they absolutely do for full time and if he is saying they don't then he is lying. He went pretty silent.

Then everyone said I am telling Han he is a liar and being disingenuous because how do I know Han's life more than him. And I was like cuz they have to offer it to full-time.

But, you know. People read what they want to read regarding it.

Edit: taking regs hazy word it was Han.
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It's entirely possible I mixed you and him up on that. This was something that happened a long while ago <_<
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The original argument stemmed from I said almost every full time job offers medical unless it is under the table. I listed all my jobs and stated how the only ones that didn't have medical were under the table. I think businesses under 50 employees do not have to either.

Because they were saying how hard it is to get medical, and I said the answer is to get a job.
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Corrik posted...

charmander6000 posted...

Corrik posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

Corrik posted...

A lot of it was that paying for transitioning with the medical was bleeding the medical system.

Reminder that the military medical system spends more per year on Viagra than on transitions.

That is an interesting stat. But, if you are comparing a small amount of people transitioning versus however many with viagara, it doesn't seem like a relatively fair comparison does it?

Would be like saying 500,000 spend more on penicillin than 100 people spend on transitioning. Wouldn't it?

The question is do transgender transitioning cost significantly more per person than those who are not.

Edit: and yes I have no idea what it costs at all.

You are assuming the cost would be zero if we don't pay for transitioning. Other costs would increase among that group such as the cost for medical services from counseling or attempted suicide or their placement in a lower tax bracket due to less work productivity/having lower paying jobs.

How is their military pay going to be lower?

Edit: I think there are studies which show that even after transitioning that suicide rates are still higher than normal.

I'm talking about general work, after the military.

They are higher than normal people, but lower than those that did not transition.
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Regaro posted...

It's entirely possible I mixed you and him up on that. This was something that happened a long while ago <_<

I think it was me.

My initial argument came from that Kmart only offers medical to full time, and Kmart barely does full time. Especially not cashiers, not in the last several years. Though I think he ended up clarifying that it had been awhile since he worked there.

I think I've literally made a post similar to this every time it gets brought up, so I don't know why Corrik keeps saying I went silent. >_>
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HashtagSEP posted...

Regaro posted...

It's entirely possible I mixed you and him up on that. This was something that happened a long while ago <_<

I think it was me.

My initial argument came from that Kmart only offers medical to full time, and Kmart barely does full time. Especially not cashiers, not in the last several years. Though I think he ended up clarifying that it had been awhile since he worked there.

I think I've literally made a post similar to this every time it gets brought up, so I don't know why Corrik keeps saying I went silent. >_>

Well, figuring you are agreeing with me. You didn't refute what I said. So, a better question is where is this damning reg disingenuous argument crap he is spouting. It literally does not exist.

We had I think 5 or 6 full time cashier / customer service employees at Kmart when there. I peaced out of there quickly because they kept trying to make me work outside of my job description. One of my worst jobs I ever had. Up there with giant eagle stocker.
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I find it kind of funny that we're basically begging for a sane conservative to talk to - but the problem is, all the sane conservatives steer clear of this topic, and all of the ones that refuse to argue in good faith are drawn to it like flies.
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BowserCuffs posted...

I find it kind of funny that we're basically begging for a sane conservative to talk to - but the problem is, all the sane conservatives steer clear of this topic, and all of the ones that refuse to argue in good faith are drawn to it like flies.

If arguing in good faith means agreeing with you eventually then yeah your definition is a bit off.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

micah: Is rant over?

natesilver: Its going to continue for the next three years, Micah.

lmfao

HashtagSEP posted...

I don't know why Corrik keeps saying I went silent. >_>

do you really not?

like, really?
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Corrik posted...

You just want a left echo chamber here which is fine, but then you also go into the "conservative" bullshit topic to argue with them still. So, it doesn't add up. I do not know what the end game is here for many of you. You want no dissenting opinions yet also seek them out too. What gives?

Yeah, someone didn't say Trump is destroying the world and asked you to provide a way he negatively affected your life last year. Wooo. That is a toughie.

I can tell you there is years Obama didn't make my life worse. It isn't like it is some major phenomena. A lot of what happens in DC doesn't affect me. However, you can't even admit it if it would be true regarding Trump. Which shows where your bias lays.

Dude this is verifiably, in recent history, false.

Multiple people in this topic, myself included, stated that the tax cuts will technically help us, but we dont agree with them.

Can you please stop painting with a broad brush while complaining that everyone you disagree with is painting with one?
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there is such a job as " giant eagle stocker" ? What does that do?
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HashtagSEP posted...

Regaro posted...

It's entirely possible I mixed you and him up on that. This was something that happened a long while ago <_<

I think it was me.

My initial argument came from that Kmart only offers medical to full time, and Kmart barely does full time. Especially not cashiers, not in the last several years. Though I think he ended up clarifying that it had been awhile since he worked there.

I think I've literally made a post similar to this every time it gets brought up, so I don't know why Corrik keeps saying I went silent. >_>

Because he writes his own narrative.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Corrik posted...

You just want a left echo chamber here which is fine, but then you also go into the "conservative" bullshit topic to argue with them still. So, it doesn't add up. I do not know what the end game is here for many of you. You want no dissenting opinions yet also seek them out too. What gives?

Yeah, someone didn't say Trump is destroying the world and asked you to provide a way he negatively affected your life last year. Wooo. That is a toughie.

I can tell you there is years Obama didn't make my life worse. It isn't like it is some major phenomena. A lot of what happens in DC doesn't affect me. However, you can't even admit it if it would be true regarding Trump. Which shows where your bias lays.

Dude this is verifiably, in recent history, false.

Multiple people in this topic, myself included, stated that the tax cuts will technically help us, but we dont agree with them.

Can you please stop painting with a broad brush while complaining that everyone you disagree with is painting with one?

Not a single person has stated their life was not worse under trump last year. While only 1 or 2 has provided reasonable reasons why.

Where is this broad brush? In fact, it seems like the majority of the people here are trying to actively find reasons to say how their life is worse.
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Alanna82 posted...

there is such a job as " giant eagle stocker" ? What does that do?

Stocks shelves. Seriously?

Edit: Giant Eagle is a grocery store.
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LapisLazuli posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

Regaro posted...

It's entirely possible I mixed you and him up on that. This was something that happened a long while ago <_<

I think it was me.

My initial argument came from that Kmart only offers medical to full time, and Kmart barely does full time. Especially not cashiers, not in the last several years. Though I think he ended up clarifying that it had been awhile since he worked there.

I think I've literally made a post similar to this every time it gets brought up, so I don't know why Corrik keeps saying I went silent. >_>

Because he writes his own narrative.

Literally just got called out that regs story was not true at all and talking about me writing my own narrative. Okee dokee.
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I wanna know why the Conservetives keep insisting we have an echo chamber and yet just about every page theres a disagreement between the damn liberals.

Its the most frustrating aspect of these topics.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I wanna know why the Conservetives keep insisting we have an echo chamber and yet just about every page theres a disagreement between the damn liberals.

Its the most frustrating aspect of these topics.

Cuz of how you treat conservative opinions?
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https://twitter.com/i/moments/974344544899817474

Trump Organization has been subpoenad by Mueller. Oh hell.
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