Board 8 > Dragon Ball Super 124 (SPOILERS)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't think there's been any new named techniques, just some different ways of using energy than we've seen before. There's the thing piccolo has done I think twice now, where he just powers up a whole lot and fills the area with his energy, he did it once in the goku/tien vs piccolo/gohan spar, and once in the tournament of power. Also from that spar, gohan's thing where he pointed and a little tiny energy blast came from his finger and kind of blinded tien? That one at least looked different than a standard ki blast. Also in the most recent episode, frieza did that energy cage thing.

Although I guess technically final kamehameha counts? Vegito has existed before so I'd think he'd count as an "existing character."
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That destructo disc move against Jiren was named, Destructo Disc Hexa Blade
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If that counts, then does solar flare x100 count?
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Oh yeah that'd count even more imho, that was a pretty big boost to its effectiveness
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Just so we're clear, it's utterly indefensible that Goku hasn't taught Instant Transmission to every Z warrior by now. It's one of the simplest yet most useful techniques, and Goku hoarding it to himself is one of the dumbest things in the entire series.
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tbh it's worse that nobody learned Kaio-ken
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I figured it wasn't simple, and Goku wouldn't be smart enough to teach them how to do it since it's a Yardrat special technique

That's what I assumed at least
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AquaArcane posted...

I figured it wasn't simple, and Goku wouldn't be smart enough to teach them how to do it since it's a Yardrat special technique

That's an extremely flimsy excuse, and even if it were true...

IT everyone to Yardrat
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Honestly if KRILLIN can pull of a solar flare times ONE-HUNDRED, then goku, gohan, piccolo, and krillin should have just nuked the entire tournament with solar flare over and over again.
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Why would Goku share moves when hes the king of stealing moves in the series? He has either nothing or incredibly close to nothing that he made himself.

CelesMyUserName posted...

tbh it's worse that nobody learned Kaio-ken

Well on one hand it wasn't compatible with SS but on the other hand, Mystic/Ultimate Gohan would have got a huge boost from it

redrocket_pub posted...

IT everyone to Yardrat

Well he wasn't able to transmit from Yardrat to earth to intercept Frieza so I dunno man

This is why I don't ask questions
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AquaArcane posted...

redrocket_pub posted...

IT everyone to Yardrat

Well he wasn't able to transmit from Yardrat to earth to intercept Frieza so I dunno man

This is why I don't ask questions

He was able to, he just didn't want to for some reason. Remember that when trunks confronts goku after he shows up from space, Goku mentions he was "about to make his move, then you (trunks) showed up" after which he explains instant transmission. So I think he was able to, just chose not to. Why, no idea.
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Probably the same great reasons he chose not to be wished to Earth and not to be revived. Theres almost nothing about Gokus character that makes any sense outside of hes a total dumbass who is obsessed with fighting

Like I remember when he wanted to stay dead because he draws too much trouble to Earth and then he comes back anyways causing even more trouble. The guy has reached a point where he would probably blow up his own planet and friends if it meant he could fight strong people nonstop for eternity

To be fair, Goku coming back for the world tournament was completely fine, no one had any way of knowing that stuff would blow up like it did, and Goku not being present wouldn't have affected the outcome anyway. If goku wasn't there, then Supreme Kai and Kibito go off to fight babidi on their own and get wrecked by Dabura, if they even make it that far. Buu gets released and the z-fighters have no chance.

If you're referring to goku actually coming back to life via Old Kai, I'm assuming the thing there was that goku being alive was the fastest way to get back to earth to help Gohan, who was currently getting the tar beaten out of him by buu.

Either way, I don't really think goku's actions harmed the earth's chances in that whole saga.
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ShatteredElysium posted...

CelesMyUserName posted...

tbh it's worse that nobody learned Kaio-ken

Well on one hand it wasn't compatible with SS but on the other hand, Mystic/Ultimate Gohan would have got a huge boost from it

hey Piccolo could use it and he was at King Kai's for the Namek saga to learn it!

imagine Kaio-ken's use on a person with regenerative abilities anyways
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this episode should have been titled

Panic! At the Dyspo
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Im basically saying Gokus choice had no difference whatsoever. Like he couldve decided to be wished back right after Cell and there was just as strong a chance nothing bad would happen. He pretty much never does anything that makes any sort of sense in all of Z

I mean if Goku didn't come back he wouldn't have pissed off Zamasu, and F. Trunks's timeline would still be alive!
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In hindsight, yes he could have, but the entire androids/cell saga did actually happen because he was alive, and Frieza did go to earth to try and defeat him, and both of these things happened in quick succession, so I can understand why he'd be spooked after that.
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If he cared at all he couldve used King Kai to talk to his friends and family and seen there were no threats after 2-3 years and just came back. That would require Goku to actually care about any of them though which makes his Super Saiyan transformation make no sense to me. Why would he care so much about Krillin being dead for good when he seemingly hadnt talked to Krillin in years. He doesnt even care about his own family. Im honestly surprised anybody likes Goku because he basically exists to fight and is otherwise a garbage person who abandons everyone around him, but they all somehow still care about him....

swordz9 posted...

he basically exists to fight and is otherwise a garbage person who abandons everyone around him

this is why I care about him
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I don't think he's that bad until Super. Like vegeta was honestly worse then since Goku actually tried to formulate a plan to defeat cell while vegeta actually let cell reach his final form for the sake of a good fight. You can argue that Goku did the same thing against frieza by letting frieza reach his full power, which is fair, but he did it to try and make sure that frieza would turn a new leaf once he was beaten, rather than vegeta letting cell do it so he could proclaim to everyone "I am the strongest!" So I don't find those equally bad.

He's definitely not a great dad or husband, I think he cares but he's not quite sure how to be those things and express those things. But super definitely doesn't do him any favors as far as his character is concerned.

Also, I don't think it was all "krillin dying" that pushed him to SSJ. I think it was more just what an overall monster that Frieza was, and he probably realized his son and then tons more of innocent people would be next.
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Emeraldegg posted...

I don't think he's that bad until Super. Like vegeta was honestly worse then since Goku actually tried to formulate a plan to defeat cell while vegeta actually let cell reach his final form for the sake of a good fight. You can argue that Goku did the same thing against frieza by letting frieza reach his full power, which is fair, but he did it to try and make sure that frieza would turn a new leaf once he was beaten, rather than vegeta letting cell do it so he could proclaim to everyone "I am the strongest!" So I don't find those equally bad.

you're forgetting about the senzu bean!

gmun-chama posted...

Emeraldegg posted...

I don't think he's that bad until Super. Like vegeta was honestly worse then since Goku actually tried to formulate a plan to defeat cell while vegeta actually let cell reach his final form for the sake of a good fight. You can argue that Goku did the same thing against frieza by letting frieza reach his full power, which is fair, but he did it to try and make sure that frieza would turn a new leaf once he was beaten, rather than vegeta letting cell do it so he could proclaim to everyone "I am the strongest!" So I don't find those equally bad.

you're forgetting about the senzu bean!

Are you referring to giving one to cell? He did that so that cell would be powerful enough to unlock Gohan's power. Remember that even though cell was kind of worn out, he hadn't shown his full power either. I'd be willing to bet that he could still take normal SSJ Gohan in that state. Hence why SSJ2 gohan was necessary. Of course, everything I'm saying is merely my own opinion, I know there's a lot of "I think" and "I feel like"
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The fact Goku even thought Frieza could turn a new leaf is incredibly stupid though. He was told the guy was a pure evil being who destroyed and/or conquered countless planets. This is why it makes no sense to me that Goku never hesitated to kill Kid Buu when Frieza was arguably far worse at the time because he was intelligent AND powerful on top of being pure evil.

I mean hes lucky Vegeta ended up being a great character because sparing him logically didnt make any sense either. Goku and Vegeta were terrible with regards to Cell. Vegeta for letting him reach his final form and Goku for putting the fate of the world on Gohans shoulders while failing to tell him his plan for defeating Cell and because hes a terrible father failing to realize that Gohan wasnt a fighter at heart. Also Goku literally fucking gave Cell a Senzu Bean.

Honestly Im amazed anybody in the show likes him or anybody watching it. Hes almost as bad as the villains because his desire to fight and naivety have almost caused the world to be destroyed multiple times

swordz9 posted...

The fact Goku even thought Frieza could turn a new leaf is incredibly stupid though. He was told the guy was a pure evil being who destroyed and/or conquered countless planets. This is why it makes no sense to me that Goku never hesitated to kill Kid Buu when Frieza was arguably far worse at the time because he was intelligent AND powerful on top of being pure evil.

I mean hes lucky Vegeta ended up being a great character because sparing him logically didnt make any sense either. Goku and Vegeta were terrible with regards to Cell. Vegeta for letting him reach his final form and Goku for putting the fate of the world on Gohans shoulders while failing to tell him his plan for defeating Cell and because hes a terrible father failing to realize that Gohan wasnt a fighter at heart. Also Goku literally fucking gave Cell a Senzu Bean.

Honestly Im amazed anybody in the show likes him or anybody watching it. Hes almost as bad as the villains because his desire to fight and naivety have almost caused the world to be destroyed multiple times

It was stupid to think that of frieza, yes, but it's that very act that shows that at one point, he did care about things other than fighting. He cared about life, about his friends, and even about his enemies. Naive? Hell yes. But it certainly doesn't make him an awful person.

In regards to cell, yeah it sucks that Gohan had to bear that weight but what was the other option? Gohan was the only one who had that power, sometimes people have responsibilities whether they like it or not. Goku seems like a dick for pushing gohan to do it but he's making the right decision by valuing the earth over his personal relationships. It's not like that means he doesn't care about Gohan, it's that he had to make a very hard decision. Gohan ends up realizing the plan on his own anyway considering that Cell starts pushing his buttons specifically because Gohan tells Cell that Goku told Gohan about his hidden power.

Of course all this seems meaningless considering goku holds back the spirit bomb because he doesn't want to kill vegeta, which defeats the entire purpose of the thing i outlined above, but at the time of the cell games I simply don't think goku was acting unreasonably. In other words, I think he and vegeta have taken opposite character development paths. I think vegeta has gotten much better and goku has gotten much worse.
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The issue is the way Goku did it. He never said hey son youre stronger than I am now so you gotta beat Cell because I cant. This resulted in Goku throwing the fight and confusing everybody. I mean you can excuse it story wise for a dramatic twist or whatnot, but had he just told Gohan that he was the only one who could stop Cell then Gohan mightve put heart into the fight knowing if he failed Piccolo and everybody else would die

That's why Gohan should have become the main character
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AquaArcane posted...

That's why Gohan should have become the main character

Ive heard Gohan was setup to take over as main character, but fan backlash resulted in Goku coming back. You can never really tell whats true or rumors though, but it definitely felt like for nearly all of Z that Gohan was being primed to become the new main character

yes I sent toriyama death letters if he made Gohan the main character
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Gohan was a way more interesting character than Goku until post Cell games. They just completely fucked up his character since then and even though it sucks as a Gohan fan that's who he is now.

Especially bad when you consider how Future Gohan turned out

I heard about that too, I'm still salty about it

fanboys ruin everything
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swordz9 posted...

The issue is the way Goku did it. He never said hey son youre stronger than I am now so you gotta beat Cell because I cant. This resulted in Goku throwing the fight and confusing everybody. I mean you can excuse it story wise for a dramatic twist or whatnot, but had he just told Gohan that he was the only one who could stop Cell then Gohan mightve put heart into the fight knowing if he failed Piccolo and everybody else would die

I mean, he doesn't say all that ahead of time, but he does tell him all of that after he gives up, before gohan tags in. He tells gohan that his power is greater than his own, and even coaches him from the sidelines to keep cell from getting in his head.

I don't really see how telling him in advance would make it any better, gohan's power wasn't awakening until his back was to the wall. Goku's way caught him off guard, sure, but once he got over the initial shock he didn't look like he was suffering from it at all. And we've seen it with other saiyans who are trying to get the SSJ transformation the first time, and gohan himself, that often times trying too hard doesn't necessarily get what you want. If goku did tell him in, say, the time chamber during training, there's no guarantee he'd have been any more prepared than when he had it sprung on him. Gohan already knew everyone would die if he didn't beat cell. Hell, cell outright tries to motivate him by telling him he'll blow up the earth if he isn't stopped. The fact he still didn't put any heart into it until getting SSJ2 is his own fault, not goku's. Gohan even tries the same thing with cell that goku does with frieza so he deserves some criticism too if goku does.
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I still love Gohan even though it was nice seeing him fight and stuff. You might even say he is the way he is now because his own father was a piece of shit who was never there so Gohan decided to actually prioritize raising his daughter and taking care of his family >.>

The problem with Gohan now isn't that he's a family man. It's that they no longer reference it as motivation. He's supposed to be super smart and care about his family yet didn't make any attempt to keep up his training even a little despite being the strongest person at the time. And he also no longer gets the rage/motivation boosts he used to by people he cares about being in danger when that used to be like his defining characteristic. Like I wouldn't care if they showed him still getting that and still coming up short but you have to actually show it

And yeah, i would have been totally on board with the series ending at the cell saga. Gohan's hidden power was something that was foreshadowed from the very first days of Z, finally reaching SSJ2 was the culmination of years of buildup. For them to overwrite that really sucked.
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That second part does suck. Id say I dont know why they would remove that from his character, but Super is loaded with bad writing anyways so its not surprising. In fairness he never had to keep up his training after Cell and Buu because the world was at peace for years and couldve stayed that way if the series stayed over. Id really love to see him reach a state where he keeps all of his characteristics (the Rage, Family, intelligence, etc), but I just get the feeling the Super writers dont care about Gohan.

Emeraldegg posted...

And yeah, i would have been totally on board with the series ending at the cell saga

But then Toriyama would have ended up being stabbed to death by the unsatisfied fans
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swordz9 posted...

That second part does suck. Id say I dont know why they would remove that from his character, but Super is loaded with bad writing anyways so its not surprising. In fairness he never had to keep up his training after Cell and Buu because the world was at peace for years and couldve stayed that way if the series stayed over. Id really love to see him reach a state where he keeps all of his characteristics (the Rage, Family, intelligence, etc), but I just get the feeling the Super writers dont care about Gohan.

They're probably scared to care or else they'll just repeat history of "Give us more goku!"
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Us Gohan fans aren't as aggressively vocal as the Goku fans

Go figure
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Im still waiting for Piccolo to be a contender again too. Goddamn this series did a huge disservice to Gohan and Piccolo. I still think its bad Frieza got to come back and randomly get strong just for marketing too. Totally wasnt done at all to get people hype for more Dragon Ball series

I loved their reasoning that it was because Frieza had never trained a day in his life

I just didn't like that the form was gold like SSJ. Should have been something else
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A guy not training for 3-5 years going from the strongest character in the series to weaker than a guy who was dead for 15~ years that came back and trained for like 4 months is among the dumbest things Dragon Ball has ever done tbh

ninkendo posted...

I loved their reasoning that it was because Frieza had never trained a day in his life

I just didn't like that the form was gold like SSJ. Should have been something else

the gold is the thing that actually made sense, Frieza said he specifically picked gold to mock SSJ
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From the amount I watched of Super, I would say Goku's character pretty much was getting butchered and I'm not surprised to hear it got even worse

All Super Goku is from what I've seen is "I want to fight strong people" with no regard for anything else's sake or safety, and fighting is all he ever thinks or cares about
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Well realistically the only way to progress a show that's all about fighting is to have a main character that solely wants to fight everything that walks

Otherwise there would actually be depth to the show and we can't have that
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Meow1000 posted...

From the amount I watched of Super, I would say Goku's character pretty much was getting butchered and I'm not surprised to hear it got even worse

All Super Goku is from what I've seen is "I want to fight strong people" with no regard for anything else's sake or safety, and fighting is all he ever thinks or cares about

That's literally all Goku has been since the beginning of Z. They didn't really butcher anything.
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You know who else never trained? Cell. Clearly were due for his revival in the 2nd Super series or whatever they name it. Hes gonna come back, train, be even stronger and be stopped by Gohan reaching the new form he said he wanted to be at. Id throw money at that

End of Cell: "If I'm alive, powerful foes will threaten the Earth. :("

Super: "If I'm alive, powerful foes will threaten the Earth! :D"
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