Current Events > Working professionally is such bullshit

(+) Yeah! (+)

All I want to do is work for a company and develop a career, so you'd think that would be enough, but it feels like the game is rigged.

Seems like all career growth is derived entirely from how adept you are at hopping from one company to the next.

I'm job hunting now and it's depressing. Idk how people do this nonsense for 40 years
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Romulox28 posted...

Idk how people do this nonsense for 40 years

40 years ago the game was simpler.
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Yeah, that's a relatively recent thing. 30 years ago company loyalty would get you far. Within the last 15 years, you can only get a significant raise by leaving the company or taking their counter offer when you tell them you're leaving.
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DarkChozoGhost posted...

Yeah, that's a relatively recent thing. 30 years ago company loyalty would get you far. Within the last 15 years, you can only get a significant raise by leaving the company or taking their counter offer when you tell them you're leaving.

yea exactly

when i join a company now i cant even expect that i will be able to grow with it, i have to always be on my guard because opportunities arent even rolling around for advancement.

at my current place my boss makes a lot of nice promises and suggestions but so far nothing has materialized.

job hunting is a slog because of the whole nature of having to send out apps, but also because every time you switch companies, especially when you dont have much experience, you're basically starting over again.

it's depressing because i have the drive & motivation to work, I actually WANT to develop, but this time it's the system against me. whereas when you're in school for example, even if you don't care you have teachers and counselors and stuff trying to motivate you to want to succeed.
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I like moving around. But I am good at interviews and have a short attention span
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i got a job when i was 14, in 8th grade. so, basically, i've already been working for 20 fucking years and i have another 30 to go. ugh
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Sorry TC but i find it very hard for you to be acting professional in anything because you're quite the jackass.
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The most helpful professional advice; it's not what you know, it's who you know. Networking, constructing rapport and garnering a reputation more than 'that guy' is key. Having value beyond clocking in and clocking out is power.
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DarkChozoGhost posted...

Yeah, that's a relatively recent thing. 30 years ago company loyalty would get you far. Within the last 15 years, you can only get a significant raise by leaving the company or taking their counter offer when you tell them you're leaving.

Pretty much. I've been with one company since college. My biggest raise was $4k when I got a promotion.

I got an offer from another company for $7k more. They matched without hesitation.

Well wait a minute, it's obvious you were paying me below my value then. So much for loyalty. You're just a commodity to them, to be had at the lowest possible value they can get. No reason to stay anywhere other than money.
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theAteam posted...

Well wait a minute, it's obvious you were paying me below my value then. So much for loyalty. You're just a commodity to them, to be had at the lowest possible value they can get. No reason to stay anywhere other than money.

im not expecting some company to love me, but this has pretty much been my experience with working professionally since college:

- get job that looks nice, get sold expectations that this will be a place i can develop professionally
- i say "hmm ok, looks like this will be a good place to start"
- things go ok until X amount of time in I find out that the company is having layoffs, not giving bonuses, there aren't any higher positions really opening up, etc
- start job hunting, find that since there are only so many job openings out in a specific field, all i can really leverage is my accomplishments, since industry knowledge & knowledge of specialized processes isn't all that transferable at a low level
- finally secure a new job
- repeat the cycle
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Romulox28 posted...

there aren't any higher positions really opening up

I'm just going to take this opportunity to point out that the reason for this is Baby Boomers and Gen Xers simply refuse to retire, thus taking away opportunities for Millenials and soon Gen Zers.
This is a big reason for pretty much everything you're complaining about, and Baby Boomers are at least arguably to blame for a lot of problems Millenials face.
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BLAKUboy posted...

I'm just going to take this opportunity to point out that the reason for this is Baby Boomers and Gen Xers simply refuse to retire, thus taking away opportunities for Millenials and soon Gen Zers.

I only have an anecdotal example, but my dad can't retire simply because he doesn't have enough money. I don't think his generation (outside of more financially savvy families) were really taught much about retirement. He didn't start until he was nearly 40 years old. And so most of the guys his age at his company are in the same boat. So you've got 60+ year olds pushing through to get enough to set themselves up. It's not that they don't want to retire; it's that they can't.
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You're looking at it in a very wrong way. Developing a career isn't about staying at a single company for 15-30years. You are your career. Whatever helps you to learn the most and increase your earning power is the best move for your career. Sometimes that means staying at a company for 10 years. Sometimes that means moving once your learning is stalling.

Wanting to stay at a single company so that you don't have to deal with sending out applications or navigating the corporate jungle makes you seem lazy, rather than driven to have the best career possible.

Once you hit more seniority in your understanding of your industry, you'll find that you are able to stay at companies longer because you'll land more challenging roles that you won't get tired of as quickly. Early on, it's usually better to change jobs every 12-18 months so that you learn a lot and increase your pay.

When I left my previous job and put my two weeks in to my boss, she told me "I don't know why the younger crowd does it, but when I was growing up, my generation stayed with a company for at least 30 years. Everyone your age jumps around every two to three years. Not that I don't have a problem with it, I think its cool you want to try out new things, but it's totally different than what we did."

I almost wanted to say to her "We move around because some of us have no choice but to move on if we want to fucking grow. This isn't 1979 anymore where you can get a great job right out of high school."
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

Wanting to stay at a single company so that you don't have to deal with sending out applications or navigating the corporate jungle makes you seem lazy, rather than driven to have the best career possible.

I call it loyalty but I'm learning that's not actually a thing anymore.
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theAteam posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Wanting to stay at a single company so that you don't have to deal with sending out applications or navigating the corporate jungle makes you seem lazy, rather than driven to have the best career possible.

I call it loyalty but I'm learning that's not actually a thing anymore.

It's pointless to worry about that until you're in a very senior or director role.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Once you hit more seniority in your understanding of your industry, you'll find that you are able to stay at companies longer because you'll land more challenging roles that you won't get tired of as quickly. Early on, it's usually better to change jobs every 12-18 months so that you learn a lot and increase your pay.

my problem is that i am having trouble reaching seniority in an industry because there are not all that many opportunities available.

im not currently in a niche industry but it isn't something as ubiquitous as retail or whatever, so what im doing now is not 100% tranferrable. all i can sell myself on is my achievements and my willingness to learn, for the most part. every company has some new systems they need to learn, new processes they follow, new methods they use to organize, etc so if you hop from job to job you are in a lot of ways starting over again.
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What do you mean by developing professionally? Like specific skills?
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Romulox28 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Once you hit more seniority in your understanding of your industry, you'll find that you are able to stay at companies longer because you'll land more challenging roles that you won't get tired of as quickly. Early on, it's usually better to change jobs every 12-18 months so that you learn a lot and increase your pay.

my problem is that i am having trouble reaching seniority in an industry because there are not all that many opportunities available.

im not currently in a niche industry but it isn't something as ubiquitous as retail or whatever, so what im doing now is not 100% tranferrable. all i can sell myself on is my achievements and my willingness to learn, for the most part. every company has some new systems they need to learn, new processes they follow, new methods they use to organize, etc so if you hop from job to job you are in a lot of ways starting over again.

You need to identify the first principles that are in use in any industry, and across all teams of any stripe. At the end of the day, every team has different tools they use for some purpose...but they all use the same processes.

That's why people doing logistics and supply chain at SpaceX study what Toyota achieved in the Japanese supply chain. Toyota became masters of supply chain early on and the lessons they learned are still relevant for other companies, even if those companies aren't making automobiles.

The same is true of other industries. I might one day take a job as an engineer working on different types of software, but the fundamentals are the same. Tooling might be different, but the processes are the same.

Learning new tools is not hard. Identifying new processes and comparing them to other processes you've seen is an acquired skill, and you acquire it by moving. Then you can start comparing processes and improving the processes at some other company. And that improvement will make the company a lot of money, and in turn it'll make you a lot of money.

Read the book The Effective Engineer by Edmond Lau.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

It's pointless to worry about that until you're in a very senior or director role.

Yeah I guess, it's just what I was taught as a kid
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emblem boy posted...

What do you mean by developing professionally? Like specific skills?

yes. learning certain skills that are needed, learning how to use whatever software is relevant, learning how the industry works, how to operate and maneuver in that industry, etc.

in entry level you're basically just doing one type of task, it's relatively low responsibility, low impact, etc.

and then as you go on you'd ideally be given larger and larger tasks and projects, maybe new positions open up at the company and you get into a job where you have more visibility into the operations of the company, you have more responsibility, your decisions have more impact and so you learn how to operate in these kinds of roles.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Learning new tools is not hard. Identifying new processes and comparing them to other processes you've seen is an acquired skill, and you acquire it by moving. Then you can start comparing processes and improving the processes at some other company. And that improvement will make the company a lot of money, and in turn it'll make you a lot of money.

i mean more like (for example) a job that requires certification X in some kind of process (i.e. Six Sigma, ITIL, etc) and then you get it and learn this process, and then for your next job they don't care about those processes and use something else that they want a cert for.
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BLAKUboy posted...

Romulox28 posted...

there aren't any higher positions really opening up

I'm just going to take this opportunity to point out that the reason for this is Baby Boomers and Gen Xers simply refuse to retire, thus taking away opportunities for Millenials and soon Gen Zers.
This is a big reason for pretty much everything you're complaining about, and Baby Boomers are at least arguably to blame for a lot of problems Millenials face.

This is such a whiny bitch post lmao.
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Romulox28 posted...

i mean more like (for example) a job that requires certification X in some kind of process (i.e. Six Sigma, ITIL, etc) and then you get it and learn this process, and then for your next job they don't care about those processes and use something else that they want a cert for.

Spend time learning fundamentals and first principles.

Romulox28 posted...

whereas when you're in school for example, even if you don't care you have teachers and counselors and stuff trying to motivate you to want to succeed.

In my experience you basically have two types of teachers - the ones who take it really seriously as a job (even if it's not their main one...which happens a lot with more industry-type jobs in community colleges) and want to see their students do well, and those who just clock in for the extra money they can make as teachers but really don't do much 'teaching' and simply got that position since they are well-respected in their field of knowledge. Of course, both of these teachers are very competent intellectually, it's just that the second type doesn't really care if you succeed at all and will almost work against you succeeding.

There can also be teachers who you plain dislike or who plain dislike you, which sucks but does happen quite a bit too. You're right about counselors though - I mean, they have relatively cushy desk jobs and are paid to be objective and understanding.
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Drpooplol posted...

This is such a whiny bitch post lmao.

It's whiny but you're kidding yourself if you don't think it's true. There used to be mandatory retirement ages in a lot of companies back in the day.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romulox28 posted...

i mean more like (for example) a job that requires certification X in some kind of process (i.e. Six Sigma, ITIL, etc) and then you get it and learn this process, and then for your next job they don't care about those processes and use something else that they want a cert for.

Spend time learning fundamentals and first principles.

yea it's all i can do in the end. im just venting now since working is miserable.
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masticatingman posted...

Drpooplol posted...

This is such a whiny bitch post lmao.

It's whiny but you're kidding yourself if you don't think it's true. There used to be mandatory retirement ages in a lot of companies back in the day.

Oh it's definitely true. But I don't look at it like "huuu old people aren't giving me their careers and positions. Fucking baby boomers."

I look at it like it is. We're all competing against each other to survive. They have their advantages and disadvantages, and we have ours" anything else is whiny bitching.
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Romulox28 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romulox28 posted...

i mean more like (for example) a job that requires certification X in some kind of process (i.e. Six Sigma, ITIL, etc) and then you get it and learn this process, and then for your next job they don't care about those processes and use something else that they want a cert for.

Spend time learning fundamentals and first principles.

yea it's all i can do in the end. im just venting now since working is miserable.

Said every communist everywhere.

The solution to working being miserable is not communism or hard socialism or complaining/bitching about the wealthy. The solution is identifying the steps you need to take in order to become better at your work so that you have more options.

And to be wise with money so that you can invest it and get to a position where you have "fuck you" money.

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romulox28 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romulox28 posted...

i mean more like (for example) a job that requires certification X in some kind of process (i.e. Six Sigma, ITIL, etc) and then you get it and learn this process, and then for your next job they don't care about those processes and use something else that they want a cert for.

Spend time learning fundamentals and first principles.

yea it's all i can do in the end. im just venting now since working is miserable.

Said every communist everywhere.

The solution to working being miserable is not communism or hard socialism or complaining/bitching about the wealthy. The solution is identifying the steps you need to take in order to become better at your work so that you have more options.

And to be wise with money so that you can invest it and get to a position where you have "fuck you" money.

wtf why are you talking about communism?
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Romulox28 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romulox28 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romulox28 posted...

i mean more like (for example) a job that requires certification X in some kind of process (i.e. Six Sigma, ITIL, etc) and then you get it and learn this process, and then for your next job they don't care about those processes and use something else that they want a cert for.

Spend time learning fundamentals and first principles.

yea it's all i can do in the end. im just venting now since working is miserable.

Said every communist everywhere.

The solution to working being miserable is not communism or hard socialism or complaining/bitching about the wealthy. The solution is identifying the steps you need to take in order to become better at your work so that you have more options.

And to be wise with money so that you can invest it and get to a position where you have "fuck you" money.

wtf why are you talking about communism?

I have you tagged as communist for some reason lol

Romulox28 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romulox28 posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romulox28 posted...

i mean more like (for example) a job that requires certification X in some kind of process (i.e. Six Sigma, ITIL, etc) and then you get it and learn this process, and then for your next job they don't care about those processes and use something else that they want a cert for.

Spend time learning fundamentals and first principles.

yea it's all i can do in the end. im just venting now since working is miserable.

Said every communist everywhere.

The solution to working being miserable is not communism or hard socialism or complaining/bitching about the wealthy. The solution is identifying the steps you need to take in order to become better at your work so that you have more options.

And to be wise with money so that you can invest it and get to a position where you have "fuck you" money.

wtf why are you talking about communism?

it's proudclad, don't really need to know more than that or pay much more attention
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drunkmuggle you bitter bro?

@Romulox28

There's no such thing as moving straight up a career ladder anymore. It's all about zig zagging. I've spent 9 years in IT. My first 4 years at my first job getting a 2% raise every year. I've had 3 jobs since then. Jumping ship every 1-2 years. When I do, it's always to a more senior position and an additional $10k-$20k salary bump. I love starting from the beginning at a new company. Gives me a chance to learn a new environment, new ways of doing things, and new skills for me to add to my repertoire.

The short of it....you don't gain experience by working the same job for years on end. Experience different work environments with different thought processes.
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BlazinBlue88 posted...

@Romulox28

There's no such thing as moving straight up a career ladder anymore. It's all about zig zagging. I've spent 9 years in IT. My first 4 years at my first job getting a 2% raise every year. I've had 3 jobs since then. Jumping ship every 1-2 years. When I do, it's always to a more senior position and an additional $10k-$20k salary bump. I love starting from the beginning at a new company. Gives me a chance to learn a new environment, new ways of doing things, and new skills for me to add to my repertoire.

The short of it....you don't gain experience by working the same job for years on end. Experience different work environments with different thought processes.

@BlazinBlue88

yea ive come to realize that. my biggest issue at the moment is busting out of entry level, especially if i am switching to a different industry, because while i have a nice current job it's not like there is a "senior" version of what i do, and the companies in my field in my area are limited. so i have to find a job i think i can realistically do and then market myself, and it's tough out there
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Romulox28 posted...

the companies in my field in my area are limited

Do you plan on staying in your area for the rest of your life?
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