Current Events > Genuine question for those who believe in Heaven.

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Hypothetical scenario:

A man and a woman of faith are in love. They get married and live happily for decades as good, loving, caring human beings. There is no question that they both deserve to go to Heaven.

The wife's life is tragically cut short in a car accident.

The man, stricken by grief, loses his faith. He just can't believe that a loving God would take his beloved wife's life so suddenly and destroy his world like that. Unable to cope with the pain of losing the woman he loved more than life itself, his life steadily falls apart. He becomes an alcoholic, then turns abusive to those around him, and generally becomes a despicable human being who goes out of his way to make others around him miserable. He sins regularly and does not care, nor does he seek forgiveness. He eventually succumbs to depression, having never been able to handle the pain of his loss, and takes his own life.

The woman, clearly, should go to Heaven. She was a good, wholesome person who gave love and joy to everyone around her.

The man, clearly, should not. He lost his faith, stopped believing in God, became a terrible person, and never sought forgiveness for the sins he committed.

But...how can the woman, who loved her husband as she knew him in life, ever be eternally happy without her soul-mate in Heaven? Is it really Heaven if the person you cared for more than anyone else in the world isn't there with you? Does the scumbag guy get a pass and get to join his wife in Heaven so as to prevent punishing her unjustly? Or does God look at the woman and just go "nah, sucks to be you, guess you chose wrong and now you're just gonna have to feel empty for eternity...but have you tried the delicious buffet yet? It's to die for! XD"
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The man is teleported a la Star Trek tech, but the signal gets duplicated one version goes to Heaven and the other goes to where he belongs.
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She can just go to the heaven singles club
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Aristoph posted...

The man, clearly, should not

Not a foregone conclusion imo

Plus, hell isn't eternal. What would be the justice behind infinite punishment for finite sins?
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Unsugarized_Foo posted...

The man is teleported a la Star Trek tech, but the signal gets duplicated one version goes to Heaven and the other goes to where he belongs.

So which one is the real one?
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The soul follows the guilty
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teepan95 posted...

Plus, hell isn't eternal. What would be the justice behind infinite punishment for finite sins?

A quick google search says it is absolutely eternal.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
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Unsugarized_Foo posted...

The soul follows the guilty

So the wife basically gets a fake? Does God tell her that her husband is actually burning in Hell or does he basically lie to her? Seems kinda shitty either way, tbh. :-/
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Aristoph posted...

teepan95 posted...

Plus, hell isn't eternal. What would be the justice behind infinite punishment for finite sins?

A quick google search says it is absolutely eternal.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

>assuming I'm Christian
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When one goes to Heaven, I think they get a hard drive clean of sorts. There will be certain feelings and desires that one will no longer entertain. Sadness over a lost loved one is one of them. The desire to have sex or masturbate is probably another too. Erections are probably impossible too...that said, if you're circumsised, your foreskin might be restored, so there's that. Probably won't think to look down there anymore though on account of no longer having to pee.

Unsugarized_Foo posted...

The man is teleported a la Star Trek tech, but the signal gets duplicated one version goes to Heaven and the other goes to where he belongs.

still fucked up. the one that goes to hell doesn't deserve to be there. God screwed him, and then punishes him for not sucking it up like a slave. that's not fair

ProtoManSPx posted...

When one goes to Heaven, I think they get a hard drive clean of sorts. There will be certain feelings and desires that one will no longer entertain. Sadness over a lost loved one is one of them. The desire to have sex or masturbate is probably another too. Erections are probably impossible too...that said, if you're circumsised, your foreskin might be restored, so there's that. Probably won't think to look down there anymore though on account of no longer having to pee.

this might be what christians believe, as fucked up as it is. Back when I was going through a christian phase, I read the Left Behind books, and these parents get raptured but their teenage son is left behind, and when they are in heaven, they are all excited and don't even mention their son or ask where he is or seem to give one fuck. was probably the most fucked up moment in the entire story

teepan95 posted...

Aristoph posted...

teepan95 posted...

Plus, hell isn't eternal. What would be the justice behind infinite punishment for finite sins?

A quick google search says it is absolutely eternal.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

>assuming I'm Christian

Ah...fair enough. I should've specified I mostly meant in the Christian/Catholic faith. But even in the Islamic faith there is debate on whether or not it is eternal, so it's not like it's purely a Christian thing.
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I liked American Dad's version of heaven: a hallway full of doors assigned to each person. Behind the door is their ideal happy life.

Stan died and went into his personal heaven and his family was all there, even though Steve and Haley were both in their personal heavens and Francine was still alive back on Earth. So they get to be with their loved ones even though they aren't ACTUALLY their loved ones...
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Bagamak posted...

Unsugarized_Foo posted...

The man is teleported a la Star Trek tech, but the signal gets duplicated one version goes to Heaven and the other goes to where he belongs.

still fucked up. the one that goes to hell doesn't deserve to be there. God screwed him, and then punishes him for not sucking it up like a slave. that's not fair

Don't think that you could know more than the one that knows all and more
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Unsugarized_Foo posted...

Don't think that you could know more than the one that knows all and more

I don't believe in Hell because I think it goes against the very concept of a loving God. if Hell exists than God is not loving. I think a milder version that isn't permanent makes more sense. or some kind of school where they take the sinful soul and teach it to behave before reincarnating it

I read new age book once where this person claimed to have had a vision of Hitler in some kind of jail cell guarded by angels and he was just sitting in the dark cell, not moving. and the person asked an angel and was told inside his mind he was experiencing everything he ever did to others, like it was happening to him. and once all the experiences were done, he would be considered clean and reincarnated

Bagamak posted...

ProtoManSPx posted...

When one goes to Heaven, I think they get a hard drive clean of sorts. There will be certain feelings and desires that one will no longer entertain. Sadness over a lost loved one is one of them. The desire to have sex or masturbate is probably another too. Erections are probably impossible too...that said, if you're circumsised, your foreskin might be restored, so there's that. Probably won't think to look down there anymore though on account of no longer having to pee.

this might be what christians believe, as fucked up as it is. Back when I was going through a christian phase, I read the Left Behind books, and these parents get raptured but their teenage son is left behind, and when they are in heaven, they are all excited and don't even mention their son or ask where he is or seem to give one fuck. was probably the most fucked up moment in the entire story

I'll take it over burning forever thx

Unsugarized_Foo posted...

Don't think that you could know more than the one that knows all and more

According to the Bible, while we don't know everything that God knows, we do have the capacity to know right from wrong. That's kind of the entire point of the whole serpent and apple and tree and everything, after all...

And if you ask me, living in eternal bliss while the person you love more than anything is roasting for eternity and God either giving you a fake copy and lying about it or just telling you to deal with it seems...well, very wrong.
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Gettin' meta gamed playing by the subset of rules an omnipotent
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Bagamak posted...

Unsugarized_Foo posted...

Don't think that you could know more than the one that knows all and more

I don't believe in Hell because I think it goes against the very concept of a loving God. if Hell exists than God is not loving. I think a milder version that isn't permanent makes more sense. or some kind of school where they take the sinful soul and teach it to behave before reincarnating it

Hell exists for those who do not wish to be with God. It's the only place he is not. God is giving those people what they want-- nothing to do with God. That's Hell.

I completely refuse to believe that people have any kind of grasp on what happens after death.
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Aristoph posted...

Unsugarized_Foo posted...

Don't think that you could know more than the one that knows all and more

According to the Bible, while we don't know everything that God knows, we do have the capacity to know right from wrong. That's kind of the entire point of the whole serpent and apple and tree and everything, after all...

And if you ask me, living in eternal bliss while the person you love more than anything is roasting for eternity and God either giving you a fake copy and lying about it or just telling you to deal with it seems...well, very wrong.

there are 2 kinds of christians

one kind says that "we can't understand the mind of God and that everything he does is fair even if we think we can't understand it in our mortal minds"

the other kind are basically what I call whipped slaves, who say that it doesn't matter what God does, if he does it, it's a good thing and that he makes the rules and we should just shut the fuck up. the westerboro baptists are of this type. they are scared of God and refuse to even stand up to him

ProtoManSPx posted...

Hell exists for those who do not wish to be with God. It's the only place he is not. God is giving those people what they want-- nothing to do with God. That's Hell.

and what if they change their mind? an eternal punishment can never make sense to inflict on a mortal being. you can't deserve eternal punishment after just 100 years of life.

Bagamak posted...

ProtoManSPx posted...

Hell exists for those who do not wish to be with God. It's the only place he is not. God is giving those people what they want-- nothing to do with God. That's Hell.

and what if they change their mind? an eternal punishment can never make sense to inflict on a mortal being. you can't deserve eternal punishment after just 100 years of life.

Too late after death.

The punishment is eternal because God is eternal. The transgression is against an eternal being. Who you offend and any athority they may have over you is relative to your punishment severity.

ProtoManSPx posted...

Bagamak posted...

ProtoManSPx posted...

Hell exists for those who do not wish to be with God. It's the only place he is not. God is giving those people what they want-- nothing to do with God. That's Hell.

and what if they change their mind? an eternal punishment can never make sense to inflict on a mortal being. you can't deserve eternal punishment after just 100 years of life.

Too late after death.

The punishment is eternal because God is eternal. The transgression is against an eternal being. Who you offend and any athority they may have over you is relative to your punishment severity.

that's stupid. sorry but if that is how God operates he is evil and petty. this is one of the reasons why I can never be a christian. the christian God is taught as being nice, but when you look into it, he still has alot of the same personalty flaws that other pagan gods had. gods he is said to be better than.

this is why I would rather believe in something like The Force. something without a human personality

Bagamak posted...

ProtoManSPx posted...

Bagamak posted...

ProtoManSPx posted...

Hell exists for those who do not wish to be with God. It's the only place he is not. God is giving those people what they want-- nothing to do with God. That's Hell.

and what if they change their mind? an eternal punishment can never make sense to inflict on a mortal being. you can't deserve eternal punishment after just 100 years of life.

Too late after death.

The punishment is eternal because God is eternal. The transgression is against an eternal being. Who you offend and any athority they may have over you is relative to your punishment severity.

that's stupid. sorry but if that is how God operates he is evil and petty. this is one of the reasons why I can never be a christian. the christian God is taught as being nice, but when you look into it, he still has alot of the same personalty flaws that other pagan gods had. gods he is said to be better than.

this is why I would rather believe in something like The Force. something without a human personality

But logical, yes? You can offend your parents and not get punished too bad, but offend a judge in court and you can be in more serious trouble. That's basically it.

Why not do more research yourself before writing God off, though?

Heaven isn't really perfect if your loved ones are being tortured for infinite years while you're there.

If God creates a fake version of all your loved ones for you to have a perfect heaven, then they're only facsimiles of your friends, and you know that the real versions are actually being tortured.

If God wipes my brain so that I'm happy even without my loved ones or makes me eternally happy, then it isn't even me.

Either way, hell and heaven can't both exist if heaven is perfect and hell is eternal torture. If I knew my husband is being tortured while I'm in heaven, I'd be miserable no matter how nice heaven is. I wouldn't be able to stand God. And I'd be stuck in heaven for eternity myself, with no option to ever see my loved ones.

If somebody put you on a beautiful island and gave you an ideal life on the island for the rest of your life, but he also showed you that he had kidnapped your partner/parents/friends and was torturing them on the other side of the planet, you wouldn't feel happy at all. You'd be angry, stressed, distraught, disgusted, and guilty.
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How many angels fit on a pin head
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littlebro07 posted...

I liked American Dad's version of heaven: a hallway full of doors assigned to each person. Behind the door is their ideal happy life.

Stan died and went into his personal heaven and his family was all there, even though Steve and Haley were both in their personal heavens and Francine was still alive back on Earth. So they get to be with their loved ones even though they aren't ACTUALLY their loved ones...

Yeah I liked that too
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Aristoph posted...

teepan95 posted...

Aristoph posted...

teepan95 posted...

Plus, hell isn't eternal. What would be the justice behind infinite punishment for finite sins?

A quick google search says it is absolutely eternal.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

>assuming I'm Christian

Ah...fair enough. I should've specified I mostly meant in the Christian/Catholic faith. But even in the Islamic faith there is debate on whether or not it is eternal, so it's not like it's purely a Christian thing.

According to another tradition found in the most reliable collections of tradition, God will ultimately take all those out of the fire who have done nothing to deserve deliverance therefrom. The concluding portions of this tradition runs thus: "Then God say, `The angels and the prophets and the faithful have all in their turn interceded for the sinners, and now there remains none to intercede for them except the most Merciful of all merciful beings. So He will take out a handful from the fire and bring out a people who never worked any good.'".

According to this tradition all those who did any good deed in this life, however slight it might be and however preponderating might be the evil which they did, will be taken out of fire upon the intercession of the angels and the prophets and the faithful, and there will then remain a people in it who never did any deed of goodness. These will be taken out of fire only through the mercy of the most Merciful. It should not be thought that a handful of God could not leave out anybody, In the Holy Quran it is said that "the whole earth is a mere handful of God on the day of Judgment." It is also clear that since, according to the tradition, the people who are thus taken out are not taken out because of any good that might have served in them as a seed for a growth of immortal life, but only because the most Merciful will desire to show full manifestation of His transcendent mercy; therefore it could not be in consonance with Divine mercy that one part should have been chosen for its manifestation while the other part should have been left without any mercy being shown to them.

[...]

Some of these traditions are found in the Kanzul Ummal, and the following two would be sufficient for our purpose: "Verily a day would come over hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after flourishing for a while" (vol. vii, page 245); "Verily a day would come over hell when there shall not be a single human being in it" (vol. vii, page 245).

https://www.alislam.org/library/misc/a-philosophical-explanation-of-the-doctrine-of-hell/

For me, personally, I feel this settles the debate over the issue. The link has a whole section on "Hell not everlasting".
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