Current Events > If Confederate flags are disrespectful, why not kneeling for the anthem?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I get kneeling for the anthem isn't about disrespecting our flag or our country, it's about bringing attention to certain issues, or at least that's what they're saying. But on that same token, why is waving the Confrderate flag disrespectful? They aren't waving the flag to celebrate the history of slavery and oppression, they're doing so to celebrate their southern heritage - the South's history is more than just slavery. So what's the deal?

It seems the real problem is both sides are purposefully trying to misunderstand each other's intentions and create a straw man.
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Find a better symbol of Southern heritage than the symbol directly tied to the time the South rebelled against the US in open (and failed) revolution.

Forget the historic ties to slavery. How about the historic ties of disrespect for the Union?
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the confederacy literally waged war on the United States and everyone who fought for them was a traitor.

anyone who says the fly that flag for "Southern Heritage" is either not honest with you, or they aren't honest with themselves. there are plenty of other ways to display "southern pride" that don't involve idolizing literal traitors to the United States of America.
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Here I have a special flag you can use that celebrates the south's heritage:

https://www.flagstoreusa.com/Customer-Content/www/products/Photos/Full/us-outdoor-poly-max-flag-6x10-or-smaller.jpg
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Here's the thing the left isn't holding the flag up as something that demands respect
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The Confederacy seceded from the Union almost exclusively because of the right to own slaves, that was the core issue of the war... So yeah, I know slavery and genocide are apples and oranges (both fruits but not quite the same), but I have about the same amount of respect for "Southern Priders" as I do Nazis...

Because our national anthem isn't inextricably associated with racial oppression.
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gguirao posted...

Because our national anthem isn't inextricably associated with racial oppression.

the censored version, at least
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gguirao posted...

Because our national anthem isn't inextricably associated with racial oppression.

It sorta is if you see the uncensored version. Which makes this whole situation even more ironic
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Kazi1212 posted...

gguirao posted...

Because our national anthem isn't inextricably associated with racial oppression.

It sorta is if you see the uncensored version. Which makes this whole situation even more ironic

It was inextricably associated with racial oppression so they took it out and now it's no longer in the anthem. I.e. it was offensive so it's not a thing anymore because people decided not to do it. This isn't what you'd call irony. I mean this is the opposite of irony really.
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Kazi1212 posted...

gguirao posted...

Because our national anthem isn't inextricably associated with racial oppression.

It sorta is if you see the uncensored version. Which makes this whole situation even more ironic

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/03/arts/music/colin-kaepernick-national-anthem.html?mcubz=3

It might have references to institutionalized slavery but it's not there to glorify that institution.
Also obviously that verse was "redacted" so to speak.

Kazi1212 posted...

I get kneeling for the anthem isn't about disrespecting our flag or our country, it's about bringing attention to certain issues, or at least that's what they're saying. But on that same token, why is waving the Confrderate flag disrespectful? They aren't waving the flag to celebrate the history of slavery and oppression, they're doing so to celebrate their southern heritage - the South's history is more than just slavery. So what's the deal?

It seems the real problem is both sides are purposefully trying to misunderstand each other's intentions and create a straw man.

Their heritage and the flag associated with it are treason and rebellion.
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They're glorifying a flag flown by traitors who wanted to keep their slaves.
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pinky0926 posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

gguirao posted...

Because our national anthem isn't inextricably associated with racial oppression.

It sorta is if you see the uncensored version. Which makes this whole situation even more ironic

It was inextricably associated with racial oppression so they took it out and now it's no longer in the anthem. I.e. it was offensive so it's not a thing anymore because people decided not to do it. This isn't what you'd call irony. I mean this is the opposite of irony really.

True, I used that word wrong. But I guess I'm trying to point out the meaning of symbols evolve over the time. To Southereners, the Confederate flag has evolved to mean Souther history that goes beyond slavery, it has come to mean a love for their land and culture like food, hunting etc... I don't know why we can't just accept Southereners wave that flag in good faith if we can also accept kneeling for the anthem is done in good faith and not about disrespecting anyone
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nah, the flag came back into prominence during the Civil Rights Era
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Kazi1212 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

gguirao posted...

Because our national anthem isn't inextricably associated with racial oppression.

It sorta is if you see the uncensored version. Which makes this whole situation even more ironic

It was inextricably associated with racial oppression so they took it out and now it's no longer in the anthem. I.e. it was offensive so it's not a thing anymore because people decided not to do it. This isn't what you'd call irony. I mean this is the opposite of irony really.

True, I used that word wrong. But I guess I'm trying to point out the meaning of symbols evolve over the time. To Southereners, the Confederate flag has evolved to mean Souther history that goes beyond slavery, it has come to mean a love for their land and culture like food, hunting etc... I don't know why we can't just accept Southereners wave that flag in good faith if we can also accept kneeling for the anthem is done in good faith and not about disrespecting anyone

Because the "Southern pride" narrative and use of the battle flag arose as a fake narrative to justify the war in the wake of the destruction and during the reconstruction efforts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNJUsE7pEs4

Kazi1212 posted...

True, I used that word wrong. But I guess I'm trying to point out the meaning of symbols evolve over the time. To Southereners, the Confederate flag has evolved to mean Souther history that goes beyond slavery, it has come to mean a love for their land and culture like food, hunting etc... I don't know why we can't just accept Southereners wave that flag in good faith if we can also accept kneeling for the anthem is done in good faith and not about disrespecting anyone

Symbols don't just belong to the people who wield them though, do they? They represent a meaning to everyone.

I mean I take your point, it's likely that for the most part people who fly the confederate flag aren't actively wanting to succeed from the states and bring back slavery.

However, would it be ok too if I was born under a rock and wore a swastika jacket walking around germany, all because I liked hinduism and thought the shape was cool?
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CommonStar posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNJUsE7pEs4

*likes*
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Hurt feelings are only important if it's liberals that are being hurt. If a conservative is offended by disrespectful actions towards America, he can go fuck himself in his safe space.
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How is the Confederate flag not 'just a piece of cloth' if that's all they say the US flag is?
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darkjedilink posted...

How is the Confederate flag not 'just a piece of cloth' if that's all they say the US flag is?

not everyone says that, though
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pinky0926 posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

True, I used that word wrong. But I guess I'm trying to point out the meaning of symbols evolve over the time. To Southereners, the Confederate flag has evolved to mean Souther history that goes beyond slavery, it has come to mean a love for their land and culture like food, hunting etc... I don't know why we can't just accept Southereners wave that flag in good faith if we can also accept kneeling for the anthem is done in good faith and not about disrespecting anyone

Symbols don't just belong to the people who wield them though, do they? They represent a meaning to everyone.

I mean I take your point, it's likely that for the most part people who fly the confederate flag aren't actively wanting to succeed from the states and bring back slavery.

However, would it be ok too if I was born under a rock and wore a swastika jacket walking around germany, all because I liked hinduism and thought the shape was cool?

The main difference here being that the Swastika has been around for millenia and used in many different cultures, and it was appropriated by the Nazi party.

The Confederate battle flag was created specifically for... well, the Confederacy, which was fighting to preserve the institution of slavery.

Hexenherz posted...

The main difference here being that the Swastika has been around for millenia and used in many different cultures, and it was appropriated by the Nazi party.

The Confederate battle flag was created specifically for... well, the Confederacy, which was fighting to preserve the institution of slavery.

Maybe the counter argument to that is that the confederate flag has been appropriated by the modern south to represent things like southern food and hospitality and all that amazing stuff I'm always told about.

I mean I'm not convinced by what I'm saying either, but I think there's merit in the suggestion that they don't mean it maliciously.
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Yeah but the "modern South" has by and large failed to progress beyond where it was 150 years ago... so.. there's that.

pinky0926 posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

True, I used that word wrong. But I guess I'm trying to point out the meaning of symbols evolve over the time. To Southereners, the Confederate flag has evolved to mean Souther history that goes beyond slavery, it has come to mean a love for their land and culture like food, hunting etc... I don't know why we can't just accept Southereners wave that flag in good faith if we can also accept kneeling for the anthem is done in good faith and not about disrespecting anyone

However, would it be ok too if I was born under a rock and wore a swastika jacket walking around germany, all because I liked hinduism and thought the shape was cool?

Actually, I think that would be ok. In extreme bad taste and ignorance obviously but nothing morally wrong with it. Symbols have a shared meaning but what it means to individual is also important. And I certainly won't call them racists or bigots like the left does to people that wave the Confederate flag. The real issue is the exaggerated language both sides use to attack each other, just makes the issue worse. Like you said, people that wave the flag probably don't want to bring back slavery, so if that's the case why are we rushing to label them as racists and bigots? Both sides digging their own grave with their spiteful language
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Kazi1212 posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

True, I used that word wrong. But I guess I'm trying to point out the meaning of symbols evolve over the time. To Southereners, the Confederate flag has evolved to mean Souther history that goes beyond slavery, it has come to mean a love for their land and culture like food, hunting etc... I don't know why we can't just accept Southereners wave that flag in good faith if we can also accept kneeling for the anthem is done in good faith and not about disrespecting anyone

However, would it be ok too if I was born under a rock and wore a swastika jacket walking around germany, all because I liked hinduism and thought the shape was cool?

Actually, I think that would be ok. In extreme bad taste and ignorance obviously but nothing morally wrong with it. Symbols have a shared meaning but what it means to individual is also important. And I certainly won't call them racists or bigots like the left does to people that wave the Confederate flag. The real issue is the exaggerated language both sides use to attack each other, just makes the issue worse. Like you said, people that wave the flag probably don't want to bring back slavery, so if that's the case why we rushing to label them as racists and bigots? Both sides digging their own grave with their spiteful language

Just saying dude if you walked around germany with a swastika jacket you will be literally arrested, if someone doesn't kill you first. The context is important.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a
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Hexenherz posted...

Yeah but the "modern South" has by and large failed to progress beyond where it was 150 years ago... so.. there's that.

I'm sure that's a factually correct statement, the amount of racism in the South today is equal to that of 150 years ago, makes perfect sense.
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I think that would again also depend on the context in which you're wearing a swastika jacket. If it's something that clearly has religious connotations to it I think they'd be quicker to defend that in Germany than to condemn you for offensive symbology.

Also, there was that movie about Hitler coming back in the 21st century and people didn't seem to be too upset about it >_>.

TheJBD posted...

Find a better symbol of Southern heritage than the symbol directly tied to the time the South rebelled against the US in open (and failed) revolution.

It is a symbol of the Duke Boys and their awesome car.
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Kazi1212 posted...

Hexenherz posted...

Yeah but the "modern South" has by and large failed to progress beyond where it was 150 years ago... so.. there's that.

I'm sure that's a factually correct statement, the amount of racism in the South today is equal to that of 150 years ago, makes perfect sense.

Compared to the other 50 states, the South has the largest concentration of race-oriented hate groups and Southern states tend to have some of the lowest levels of public education across the Union.

The Admiral posted...

Hurt feelings are only important if it's liberals that are being hurt. If a conservative is offended by disrespectful actions towards America, he can go fuck himself in his safe space.

So they're just like you, but for the other team.
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Hexenherz posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

Hexenherz posted...

Yeah but the "modern South" has by and large failed to progress beyond where it was 150 years ago... so.. there's that.

I'm sure that's a factually correct statement, the amount of racism in the South today is equal to that of 150 years ago, makes perfect sense.

Compared to the other 50 states, the South has the largest concentration of race-oriented hate groups and Southern states tend to have some of the lowest levels of public education across the Union.

According to this map there seems to be a relative even distribution of hate groups in both the North and South:

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map
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Kazi1212 posted...

Hexenherz posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

Hexenherz posted...

Yeah but the "modern South" has by and large failed to progress beyond where it was 150 years ago... so.. there's that.

I'm sure that's a factually correct statement, the amount of racism in the South today is equal to that of 150 years ago, makes perfect sense.

Compared to the other 50 states, the South has the largest concentration of race-oriented hate groups and Southern states tend to have some of the lowest levels of public education across the Union.

According to this map there seems to be a relative even distribution of hate groups in both the North and South:

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

If you look at what are considered traditionally South and traditionally North states, you get approximately 395 to 177 (this second number might be closer to 200, but either way you wind up with less than half of what you have in the traditionally Southern states).

Hexenherz posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

Hexenherz posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

Hexenherz posted...

Yeah but the "modern South" has by and large failed to progress beyond where it was 150 years ago... so.. there's that.

I'm sure that's a factually correct statement, the amount of racism in the South today is equal to that of 150 years ago, makes perfect sense.

Compared to the other 50 states, the South has the largest concentration of race-oriented hate groups and Southern states tend to have some of the lowest levels of public education across the Union.

According to this map there seems to be a relative even distribution of hate groups in both the North and South:

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

If you look at what are considered traditionally South and traditionally North states, you get approximately 395 to 177 (this second number might be closer to 200, but either way you wind up with less than half of what you have in the traditionally Southern states).

I just noticed that too, fair enough. But you can't go around saying the South hasn't progressed in 150 years. For one, that's factually wrong even if there's more hate groups concentrated in the South, that doesn't mean there hasn't been significant progress from what it once was. And second, this is exactly the kind of exaggerated rhetoric I was talking about that only helps to create more division, no one wants to understand where the other side is coming from. There is something to be said for charity of understanding and interpretation
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@The_Admiral posted...

Hurt feelings are only important if it's liberals that are being hurt. If a conservative is offended by disrespectful actions towards America, he can go fuck himself in his safe space.

You keep accusing liberals of "hurt feelings", but where exactly is this debate over the NFL protests coming from?
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The confederate flag literally represents a military force that fought against the united states. :v
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

The confederate flag literally represents a military force that fought against the united states. :v

So do the British, German, and Japanese flags. The Mexican flag represents a military force that ruled Texas with impunity.
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darkjedilink posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

The confederate flag literally represents a military force that fought against the united states. :v

So do the British, German, and Japanese flags. The Mexican flag represents a military force that ruled Texas with impunity.

And you don't see any of those flags being flown very much in the United States do you? You see the confederate flag way more.
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pinky0926 posted...

Here I have a special flag you can use that celebrates the south's heritage:

https://www.flagstoreusa.com/Customer-Content/www/products/Photos/Full/us-outdoor-poly-max-flag-6x10-or-smaller.jpg

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boxington posted...

CommonStar posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNJUsE7pEs4

*likes*

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OpheliaAdenade posted...

darkjedilink posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

The confederate flag literally represents a military force that fought against the united states. :v

So do the British, German, and Japanese flags. The Mexican flag represents a military force that ruled Texas with impunity.

And you don't see any of those flags being flown very much in the United States do you? You see the confederate flag way more.

The Mexican flag gets flown all the time. By Democrats. Saying anything negative about it is racist somehow.
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darkjedilink posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

darkjedilink posted...

OpheliaAdenade posted...

The confederate flag literally represents a military force that fought against the united states. :v

So do the British, German, and Japanese flags. The Mexican flag represents a military force that ruled Texas with impunity.

And you don't see any of those flags being flown very much in the United States do you? You see the confederate flag way more.

The Mexican flag gets flown all the time. By Democrats. Saying anything negative about it is racist somehow.

I've never seen it anywhere besides Mexican restaurants as decoration. :u at least in ohio
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darkjedilink posted...

The Mexican flag gets flown all the time. By Democrats. Saying anything negative about it is racist somehow.

Are you living in an area with a lot of Mexicans or Mexican establishments? Because that could be the main reason.
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hmmmm how did I miss the day in history class where they taught about Mexico rebelling against the US
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Asherlee10 posted...

I see a lot of Texans utilizing this flag a lot more than the Confederate flag:

Wow I always thought this was just a condom joke.

Boy do I feel silly now.
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Solar_Crimson posted...

darkjedilink posted...

The Mexican flag gets flown all the time. By Democrats. Saying anything negative about it is racist somehow.

Are you living in an area with a lot of Mexicans or Mexican establishments? Because that could be the main reason.

It's flown at almost every protest for border security by dreamers...
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