Current Events > Republicans after Harvey/Irma: "Price gouging is a public service."

(+) Yeah! (+)

If you ever wanted evidence of how morally fucked up Republicanism is (note: not just Red Hatism, *Republicanism*), look no further than this fucked up article from the movement conservative juggernaut, the National Review

Consider that the next time you hear a politician complaining about “price gouging” during a crisis, a dopey complaint for which both Left and Right have a weakness. Price gouging is treated as moral abomination and, at times, as a legal offense. You know what price-gouging is? A public service. Prices are how we ration scarce goods, and the pain associated with paying unusually high prices is how we learn not to put off laying in supplies until after the disaster has already happened. The guy with supplies to sell has, either through luck or foresight, managed to put himself in possession of what you need — and you did not. You don’t have to thank him, but you do have to pay his price. The profit he makes encourages him to keep planning for the future. If that hurts — it should. Maybe you’ll learn to do better next time. But the alternative to paying the higher prices isn’t paying a lower price — it is having no gasoline or water or toilet paper at all, at any price. You can try to regulate away that reality; ask the Venezuelans how that’s going for them.

In other words if a hurricane or a tornado rolls up your house and you're in desperate need of food water or gas, you have a moral obligation to bend over and take it, because you should have been hoarding that shit in your indestructible underground bunker all along. And anyone who tries to legislate price gouging is Hugo Chavez trying to turn America into Venezuela. (Funny how often they play that card)

Fuck this Littlefinger bullshit and fuck conservatism.


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451336/irma-harvey-lesson-price-gouging-public-service

Isn't the national review disreputable at best?
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I've seen a lot of Libertarians going on about this on FB. Coincidentally none of them live in areas that were actually hit by these hurricanes.

And no, it's not a public service. It is 100% about taking advantage of desperate people in order to make a buck. The people doing the price gouging don't give half a fuck about rationing, they are just trying to enrich themselves on the backs of other peoples' misery
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Also, a small raise in prices isn't price gouging.

Gas went up 30 cents here after Harvey but I guarantee you if there wasn't anti-price gouging in place it'd have doubled or tripled in price "cause the hurricanes" even though we're hundreds of miles from any effects of it
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wackyteen posted...

Also, a small raise in prices isn't price gouging.

Gas went up 30 cents here after Harvey but I guarantee you if there wasn't anti-price gouging in place it'd have doubled or tripled in price "cause the hurricanes" even though we're hundreds of miles from any effects of it

The conversation isn't about areas that weren't hit by the hurricanes.
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TC thinks that article represents the way all Republicans think? Dafuq?
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A_Good_Boy posted...

The conversation isn't about areas that weren't hit by the hurricanes

I know but I was using a bit of a personal anecdote as to what a world with price gouging being encouraged/ignored would look like.

Honestly I wouldn't take the article in the OP too seriously. It's just some random dude on the internet, honestly.
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wackyteen posted...

Isn't the national review disreputable at best?

It one of the two major conservative publications along with the Weekly Standard

wackyteen posted...

Also, a small raise in prices isn't price gouging.

Gas went up 30 cents here after Harvey but I guarantee you if there wasn't anti-price gouging in place it'd have doubled or tripled in price "cause the hurricanes" even though we're hundreds of miles from any effects of it

And there's a station in Texas that's facing legal problems after they jacked up prices to $7. And another one that charged as much as $10. Plus several business selling water bottles for as much as $8.50 each and packs priced up to $100. Plus hotels charging double the regular rates for rooms. And many other issues being reported. And that is with the price gouging laws in Texas.
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Prices don't ration shit lol. The storekeeper can ration shit by refusing to sell more than a certain number to any one person.
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lilORANG posted...

Prices don't ration shit lol. The storekeeper can ration shit by refusing to sell more than a certain number to any one person.

But then I can't be a despicable human being while claiming to be a more intelligent, altruistic specimen!?
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eston posted...

The people doing the price gouging don't give half a f*** about rationing

This. When a lot of people are doing a run on a good, prices aren't increased so that "only the people who really need it can get it", but because they're hoping to turn a quick profit off of a short term need.

Which is why many states have anti-gouging laws.
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"Republicans after Harvey/Irma:"

*posts an editorial written by some asshat with a shitty opinion*

Are you assuming that almost every Republican thinks like this asshat who wrote this? I forgot, ROD made this topic. lol
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lilORANG posted...

Prices don't ration shit lol. The storekeeper can ration shit by refusing to sell more than a certain number to any one person.

why would they?

also, what about the construction workers and other manual laborers who will see huge increases in their take home pay due to the increased demand for their services? Should we be going after them for price gouging?
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shockthemonkey posted...

wackyteen posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

The conversation isn't about areas that weren't hit by the hurricanes

I know but I was using a bit of a personal anecdote as to what a world with price gouging being encouraged/ignored would look like.

Honestly I wouldn't take the article in the OP too seriously. It's just some random dude on the internet, honestly.

National Review isn't some random blog

its definitely not just a random idea

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2017/09/09/is-price-gouging-during-emergencies-a-good-thing.cnn

https://fee.org/articles/professor-horwitz-explains-price-gouging-in-the-midst-of-the-storm/

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2017/sep/14/bans-on-price-gouging-seem-fair-but-backfire/
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Asherlee10 posted...

Are they having an increase in their take-home pay because they increased their wage or is it because they are working more hours?

both
http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2017/09/07/next-hurricane-related-shortage-construction-workers.html

After Katrina, construction-worker wages in Mississippi jumped 12%, according to an analysis by Todd Tomalak, vice president of research at John Burns Consulting. The number of new housing permits increased by about 27% from 2006 to 2007 in the New Orleans area, according to the analysis.
...

Mr. Hernandez is charging customers $85 an hour for the labor for his men, up from his usual rate of $55 an hour. The bump comes because he is paying them $160 a day plus room and board, up from $100 a day.
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Balrog0 posted...

lilORANG posted...

Prices don't ration shit lol. The storekeeper can ration shit by refusing to sell more than a certain number to any one person.

why would they?

also, what about the construction workers and other manual laborers who will see huge increases in their take home pay due to the increased demand for their services? Should we be going after them for price gouging?

How is this even a comparison? Manual laborers stand to make more money because there is more work to do, not because they're jacking up prices to take advantage of people
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eston posted...

The people doing the price gouging don't give half a f*** about rationing, they are just trying to enrich themselves on the backs of other peoples' misery

enrich themselves by charging more for the very last stock they will have for a long time? doesnt make sense. the gas stations are as desperate as the people leaving. they need to pay their bills too, and they know they aint getting any more supplies for a while.

eston posted...

How is this even a comparison? Manual laborers stand to make more money because there is more work to do, not because they're jacking up prices to take advantage of people

dude, the reason prices go up for water is because there is a big demand for it and it's harder to get enough to satisfy all the demand

it's literally the exact same damn thing, except for labor instead of physical goods
and yeah, they DO jack up their prices when there is more work to do because why wouldn't they?
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

the gas stations are as desperate as the people leaving.

I don't agree with this.

But I don't know that price gouging laws end up helping anyone, either.
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

eston posted...

The people doing the price gouging don't give half a f*** about rationing, they are just trying to enrich themselves on the backs of other peoples' misery

enrich themselves by charging more for the very last stock they will have for a long time? doesnt make sense. the gas stations are as desperate as the people leaving. they need to pay their bills too, and they know they aint getting any more supplies for a while.

Even if they keep their prices the same, they are completely selling out of products they don't normally sell out of. It's not like they are going to go bankrupt if they don't triple prices. It is just greed at that point.
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Higher prices incentivize people to forgo consumption so people who need it more can actually get it. They also incentivize people to bring in product from outside the affected area. Trying to legislate lower prices makes shortages worse and last longer.
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It makes sense when you think about it: When prices are too high, people won't hoard and only buy what they need.

It stops making sense when you consider you can achieve the same protective effect through rationing and limiting sales. >_>

But what of the businesses who are making less sales because of rationing? Surely they have to make up for the lost profits with an increased price? Yeah, you know, a price hike wouldn't be totally unforgivable.

But gouging once again stops making sense when you consider a supplier has a limited stock anyway. And even with rationing, you're likely one of very few sources for what you have, and will likely have little problem in selling off your stock.

So if you just want price gouging to be legal because it has a use (even if it's inferior at what it does to other alternatives) more power to ya. Or maybe you just like the market being able to sort itself out with being regulated for those pesky ethics. But let's not pretend price gouging is beneficial to anybody except the seller.
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IMO when a state of emergency is called necessities within a certain quantity should be free and the government should foot the bill.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Price gauging is not the same for manual labor. There is an infinite supply of time in which labor can be done. It is not a finite quantity in stock that is needed at once.

in what way is this meaningful with regards to this discussion?

I don't agree with you at all even on the basis of what you're saying (that is a very naive way to look at things -- if time is infinite for labor because you can always wait to do it, I don't see how you can't say the same thing about water. Just wait!)

But disregarding that, I don't understand why that means you can charge much more for labor after a disaster but not for other things.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Price gauging is not the same for manual labor. There is an infinite supply of time in which labor can be done. It is not a finite quantity in stock that is needed at once.

Hey now. Check that human hubris before it kills us all, dude.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/large-hadron-collider/3319218/Time-is-running-out-literally-says-scientist.html
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AlisLandale posted...

It makes sense when you think about it: When prices are too high, people won't hoard and only buy what they need.

It stops making sense when you consider you can achieve the same protective effect through rationing and limiting sales. >_>

But what of the businesses who are making less sales because of rationing? Surely they have to make up for the lost profits with an increased price? Yeah, you know, a price hike wouldn't be totally unforgivable.

But gouging once again stops making sense when you consider a supplier has a limited stock anyway. And even with rationing, you're likely one of very few sources for what you have, and will likely have little problem in selling off your stock.

So if you just want price gouging to be legal because it has a use (even if it's inferior at what it does to other alternatives) more power to ya. Or maybe you just like the market being able to sort itself out with being regulated for those pesky ethics. But let's not pretend price gouging is beneficial to anybody except the seller.

josifrees posted...

IMO when a state of emergency is called necessities within a certain quantity should be free and the government should foot the bill.

these are both reasonable opinions imho

the thing for me isnt whether or not you like price gouging, but at least acknowledge the arguments instead of straw-manning the other side. It's perfectly fine to be concerned about distributional equity or w/e but there is a mechanism at work here
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shockthemonkey posted...

Because shifting this conversation to labor in a different scenario is entirely pointless when trying to discuss the actual idea presented by the OP. Pretending they're the same is asinine and dishonest.

I just asked you why they're different, and all you can tell me is that they're different because you say so and then insult me.

Alright
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shockthemonkey posted...

Price gauging is not the same for manual labor. There is an infinite supply of time in which labor can be done. It is not a finite quantity in stock that is needed at once.

Even then, the government is still going to have to buy those supplies from someone. Should suppliers be allowed to mark up the price to the government? If not, should they be required to sell their limited stock to the government over their usual customers?
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shockthemonkey posted...

Because there is a finite quantity of an essential item in the face of an emergency that in no way exists when it comes to laborers needed for reconstruction.

Again, is this just because you're saying so? People need houses and hospitals and plumbing and HVAC, dude. Some old people just died because of a lack of it in a Florida nursing home. I really don't think you're even trying to think this through, which is the whole problem I have with price gouging laws. It's very obviously a gut reaction
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Rationing with price control limits the amount of need-based sorting that can occur. And it doesn't incentivize increased supply.
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Balrog0 posted...

Again, is this just because you're saying so?

Let's see. One can be done whenever, the other is an actual necessity needed for the body to function. I feel like you're being dense on purpose.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Let's see. One can be done whenever, the other is an actual necessity needed for the body to function. I feel like you're being dense on purpose.

I bet a lot more people die in the aftermath of a hurricane due to exposure-related things than die during a hurricane because of a lack of water or food.

I literally just pointed to the fact that people died because they lacked AC, so this response seems pretty weak. I dunno, maybe I should have said something more broad than construction since you seem to be under the impression we're just talking about people getting their houses rebuilt, but it also includes all of the skilled trades.

Saying that you don't need it immediately is just weird to me. You can go for days and days without water. You can go for a long time without shelter. You'll need both eventually.
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Balrog0 posted...

why would they?

Why not. People already do this when there's not an emergency.
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Balrog0 posted...

Saying that you don't need it immediately is just weird to me. You can go for days and days without water. You can go for a long time without shelter. You'll need both eventually.

You'll need water first. I get this feeling, this hunch, that hydrated people can help and do more than dehydrated people.
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Funny that you see price increases immediately with (the threat of) scarcity, but rarely ever see such sudden relative decreases when a good is in surplus.
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i wonder how much overlap there is between "people who support raising prices in the wake of a natural disaster" and "people who condemn people stealing things to survive"
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dave_is_slick posted...

You'll need water first. I get this feeling, this hunch, that hydrated people can help and do more than dehydrated people.

lol okay, I can tell you've put a lot of thought into this one

I don't even support price gouging. but ce is dumb as fuck.
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fenderbender321 posted...

AlisLandale posted...

It makes sense when you think about it: When prices are too high, people won't hoard and only buy what they need.

It stops making sense when you consider you can achieve the same protective effect through rationing and limiting sales. >_>

The effect is different with rationing, though. People are much more likely to buy things they don't need if they can get them at a lower price. Since there is no way to know how much each person really needs, stores can really only set a per customer limit on items, so people will buy items they don't need since they're there at the store, and likely had to wait a long time (another effect of rationing).

people are also much less likely to be able to afford basic necessities if the price is too high, which leads to them stealing things
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Kineth posted...

Funny that you see price increases immediately with (the threat of) scarcity, but rarely ever see such sudden relative decreases when a good is in surplus.

I see it all the time. I get things on sale or at discounted prices all the time because it was decided that would take too long to otherwise sell them at their normal price.
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wackyteen posted...

Isn't the national review disreputable at best?

Yes it's a racist shit show
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