Poll of the Day > Why are demons always bad?

(+) Yeah! (+)

There are shows where demons are not inherently evil, there are quite a few animes like this.
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There are actually a lot of shows like that. Angel had heroic demons. Hellboy is based entirely around the concept.

The reason they are 'always bad' is because in Judeo-Christian ideology, demon's are angels that rebelled against God and sided with Satan because they were lusting after and breeding with human women (spawning the Nephiliam). Rebelling against God is pretty much the worst crime in Christianity, and it's pretty hard to come back from.

In other religions, it's not usually so cut and dry. In Islam, the closest equivalent (Djinn) are more like humans in that they can be good or evil spirits, depending on what they choose. In the Norse, the closest equivalent would be Jotuns or Giants (probably more appropriately, Titans), who are not inherently evil, but are mortal enemies of the gods. However, in this case, it's not good versus evil. Instead, it is order versus chaos. In Japan, the closet equivalent is Oni, but they are more like ogres, than demons, and act more like primordial titans than evil fallen celestial.

Basically, the major relevant influence in western media is Christianity and Christianity defines demons as irredeemable monsters who have turned on God.

Sahuagin posted...

it's so easy to say things like this, but you're seemingly ignorant to the fact that people have to literally escape from that kind of life. the damage to my family from hyper-religious thinking is on-going.

And you're seemingly ignorant of the fact that writing bad fiction about how grr, bad! religion is doesn't actually do anything to change, address, or fix any legitimate problems in organized religion, while simultaneously shitting on the people who DO find value or personal meaning in religion and who consider it a positive experience pretty much instantly turning them against you and encouraging them to close ranks against what might otherwise be valid criticism.

It also doesn't help if you come across like a pretentious douche-nozzle in interviews, talking about how "important" your work is while dismissing the entire fantasy genre (while simultaneously attempting to exploit it), and telling people you don't consider your work to BE fantasy because it's too important for that, and that you don't actually read other fantasy novels because you don't consider them worthwhile (which kind of helps explain why your own work is so terrible).

The problem isn't that Pullman wrote a book (or books) that was anti-religion, per se. The problem is that he wrote shitty books that were anti-religion while also being an incredibly shitty person about it.


(Hell, I'll even bring up Michael Moorcock at this point, who's written similarly unsubtle political or atheistic subtext in novels, who tends to be similarly pretentious about his own self-importance, and who generally comes across a bit abrasive and shitty in interviews or when writing personal thoughts versus novels, but who tends to get more of a pass with me because he's at least a much better writer.)



Sahuagin posted...

I haven't seen 'the golden compass' but that describes Narnia pretty well.

I never said Narnia was a paragon of fantasy literature, either.

Though Narnia still manages to keep the allegory at least somewhat subtle a fair amount of the time, except for a few "HEY, DO YOU GET IT?! DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF SOMETHING, HINT HINT?!" moments. Lewis just used Aslan as a metaphor for God/Jesus. By the end Pullman is writing about angels and killing god and generally hammering his point over and over again.

His Dark Materials basically feels like the entire narrative arc is built around the idea of "Religion sucks, how can I shit on the Church today?" And the end result is ironic as hell, because his complaint about Narnia is that it's basically brainwashing for kids, so he deliberately went on to write a book that was meant to brainwash kids.

And you said you "haven't seen" The Golden Compass. Don't judge the work by the movie. Judge it by the actual books. The movie was sanitized as hell, and the books are way, way worse about it.


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I was more referring to your tendency to play the 'lol atheist' card, rather than anything to do with this 'golden compass' thing

you're just a troll anyway so who cares
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Sahuagin posted...

I was more referring to your tendency to play the 'lol atheist' card, rather than anything to do with this 'golden compass' thing

Then you were doing an incredibly shitty job of it.

And I'd probably play the 'lol atheist' card less if so many vocal Internet atheists weren't so lol-worthy.



Sahuagin posted...

you're just a troll anyway so who cares

You could always go hit the ignore button. Neither of us would lose anything of value and we'd probably both have a much better PotD experience for it.

Go ahead, I won't judge you for it.


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Most demons in various religions are seen evil. Some religions, I think demons could be considered either good, neutral, or evil. Many see demons as red-winged horned monkeys and often sees those kind as pure evil. In some religions, demons come in many forms and I think in some religions (I'm just taking a guess but maybe Japan is one), demons could be good, neutral, or evil by nature.

There are many names for "demon" in Japan like "ma" (also translates to "magic"), "mamono" (also translates to "demon thing"), "akuma" (which is literally "evil demon" but commonly translates to "devil" and as their Japanese name suggests, akuma are literally evil), "oni" (also translates to "ogre"). Youkai could also translate to "demon" (maybe), but it mostly translates to "spirit", "apparition", or "phantom". I think there are a few translations for demon from Japanese. There are different types of demons in Japan.

As for television or comics, an anime/manga series that has good, neutral, and evil demons (mamono) is Zatch Bell! (Konjiki no Gash!! manga and Konjiki no Gash Bell!! anime in Japan) and are mostly seen as human-like creatures but there are many different species. Another anime that has good, neutral, and evil demons (youkai, meaning "spirit", "apparition", etc.) is Yu Yu Hakusho. While many are shown to be bloodlust, there are some good ones that are main characters or supporters.

As for video games, in Mortal Kombat, Ashrah and Sareena are two demons of the Netherrealm who are good. Ashrah, despite her light human-like appearance, is a demon that can use holy magic..
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actuallly judeo christian demons punish people ironically in hell,
hell is taken from a norse word hel, for a place that is very cold where murderers end up

going back satan is a pre-christian god, any trait that a demon would have is pre-judeo christian
so it's not necessarily inhuman it's just not 'good'

there was once a god called moloch who people sacrificed their first born for because they were told they would get riches(one less mouth to feed probably) so moloch was the idol they brought the baby to
theres the plagues of egypt which call into account the holy ghost killing the first born son of every house without lambs blood
there's abraham being told to sacrifice his son and then him disagreeing and God saying 'i was just messing with you' to seperate himself from the earlier gods
romans also sacrificed animals for the emperors birthday since people had to remember to pay taxes that way
the act of eating animals is kind of demonic in a way if there are other means to eat, like eating eggs, nuts or maybe milk instead. plenty of ways to get protein but humans still eat animals because well we're demons
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RoboXgp89 posted...

hell is taken from a norse word hel, for a place that is very cold where murderers end up

That is actually wrong. The Norse 'Hel' actually refers both to the goddess, who is the daughter of Loki and described as half-white, half black, and for the realm in which she lives where average people die. There is absolutely no description of this place and it is neither a heaven or hell analog.

More importantly, the Norse concept of murder would not line up with what you are saying. Killing another person was actually justifiable in some circumstances (revenge, battle, holmgang/duel) and in many cases simply going to the nearest town and declaring the killing was enough to remove the charge of murder. That's not to say there was no murder and no rules (mostly they had to do with killing people who you justifiably had a reason to be fighting), but it is absolutely nothing like our concept.

So yeah, wrong on every point.

RoboXgp89 posted...

going back satan is a pre-christian god, any trait that a demon would have is pre-judeo christian
so it's not necessarily inhuman it's just not 'good'

Judeo actually refers to the Jewish beliefs, so the concept of Satan and his fallen angels are not 'pre-Judeo'. More importantly, if we are following the Bible, God set out a clear moral guide of what was good and what was evil pretty early on.

Now, what gets sticky when you start attributing traits to demons is which demons are you talking about? Both the Old Testament and the New Testament contain demons. The word demon has been used to refer to several creatures from other religions and mythologies (Oni, Jotun, Djinn, etc). Demonology is more of a literary study than a hard science, and has pretty much been considered a pseudo-science since it was popularized in the renaissance.

RoboXgp89 posted...

there was once a god called moloch who people sacrificed their first born for because they were told they would get riches(one less mouth to feed probably) so moloch was the idol they brought the baby to

The child sacrifices to Moloch have long since been disproved. The references were likely Roman propaganda and the actual children in question were likely already dead or stillborn and the burning of them was actually a funeral custom.

RoboXgp89 posted...

theres the plagues of egypt which call into account the holy ghost killing the first born son of every house without lambs blood
there's abraham being told to sacrifice his son and then him disagreeing and God saying 'i was just messing with you' to seperate himself from the earlier gods

And what does that have to do with demons?

RoboXgp89 posted...

the act of eating animals is kind of demonic in a way if there are other means to eat, like eating eggs, nuts or maybe milk instead. plenty of ways to get protein but humans still eat animals because well we're demons

No it's not. It's the easiest way for most of us to get protein. It's how we and all other carnivores evolved. Any way describing that as 'demonic' is pure equivocation.

good to know~!

I was kind of equating dante's inferno with Hel of Helheim though, thought they seemed very similar
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I guess you could argue that at this point if we eat living creatures (raise them and kill them just for their meat) that could be considered demonic. Originally though it was just natural, the way most canrivor/omnivores survive.

We have the ability/technology to avoid doing that at this point, and to certainly avoid the suffering we cause in the name of profit/efficiency.

I myself tried to be a vegetarian once, because I saw what they do at Haris Ranch on the way back from LA, but it didn't stick (made it like 2 weeks).

I justify this by saying to myself that me not eating steak would actually not make any difference at all, but the fact remains, every week I am eating meat that comes from animals that suffered horrid conditions before being killed to feed my hunger.

That does sound somewhat demonic to me. I have the means and ability to eat other foods that did not come from suffering, but I like the taste too much.

Not sure if that makes me a demon, but it certainly draws a line in the sand as far as how much I'm willing to do to prevent suffering or causing suffering in other entities.

Might have stuck with being a veggy when younger (though I was SERIOUSLY into food back then, could eat a ton and never gain a pound), but at this point i'm tired, old and just dgaf anymore. If someone is going to change the world, stop suffering etc, it's not goona be me. The younger generations can change things if they want, I'm just gonna ride this life out at this point.

If that makes me a demon, so be it.

I'm at least a neutral demon then, if not a chaotic good one:)
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eating stake is messed up but it's not that bad
the cattle is grass fed on open land up until 3 months before it's slaughtered

chickens have it bad, they spend 3 months of their life in pain and never seeing daylight before their heads are cut off
even the ones that lay eggs arent' allowed to leave their cages
pigs are very smart creatures, just like dogs and we raise them to only be so old and get so big before we litterally cook them while they're alive
farm pigs are up to 4x bigger but the industry would rather kill these smaller immature pigs, it's really sick to think about.

Over 56 billion farmed animals are killed every year by humans. These shocking figures do not even include fish and other sea creatures whose deaths are so great they are only measured in tonnes.

like I said chickens make plenty of protein as do cows with milk, eating meat is demonic
western culture is too lazy to switch to vegetarian diets, like india and southeast asia, they eat nothing but vegetables
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and yeah when christians fasted in early history they definitely didn't eat meat as much
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ7mipLHWxY
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i forgot beans
you can definitely go strictly vegan if you eat beans
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Yu Yu Hakusho

So the good demon is the vegan one?
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They're not always bad. Ghost Rider.
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wolfy42 posted...

I guess you could argue that at this point if we eat living creatures (raise them and kill them just for their meat) that could be considered demonic. Originally though it was just natural, the way most canrivor/omnivores survive.

We have the ability/technology to avoid doing that at this point, and to certainly avoid the suffering we cause in the name of profit/efficiency.

I myself tried to be a vegetarian once, because I saw what they do at Haris Ranch on the way back from LA, but it didn't stick (made it like 2 weeks).

I justify this by saying to myself that me not eating steak would actually not make any difference at all, but the fact remains, every week I am eating meat that comes from animals that suffered horrid conditions before being killed to feed my hunger.

That does sound somewhat demonic to me. I have the means and ability to eat other foods that did not come from suffering, but I like the taste too much.

Not sure if that makes me a demon, but it certainly draws a line in the sand as far as how much I'm willing to do to prevent suffering or causing suffering in other entities.

Might have stuck with being a veggy when younger (though I was SERIOUSLY into food back then, could eat a ton and never gain a pound), but at this point i'm tired, old and just dgaf anymore. If someone is going to change the world, stop suffering etc, it's not goona be me. The younger generations can change things if they want, I'm just gonna ride this life out at this point.

If that makes me a demon, so be it.

I'm at least a neutral demon then, if not a chaotic good one:)

The definition is literally

of, resembling, or characteristic of demons or evil spirits.

As far as I know, not a single demon I can think of was a rancher, nor does their diet ever come up. It's really just a logical fallacy to try and make it mean anything else.

If you want to discuss the morality of eating meat, that's an entirely different topic. But it has nothing to do with the definition of 'demonic'.