Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 126: Manufacturing Outrage

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BowserCuffs 08/16/17 4:57:49 PM #52:	Panthera posted... BowserCuffs posted... I'm not even pro-commie, by the way. Just pointing out that communism isn't a philosophy based on hate, just a failed economic system - where Nazism is absolutely a philosophy based on hate, and so deserves far more scrutiny and hatred than communism. I don't really care about the Lenin statue, though. Like I said earlier, I just have no chill. No, communism is absolutely a philosophy based on hate. The idea is fundamentally built on terrorism and tyranny. Marx specifically referred to the process needed to create a communist society as "revolutionary terror" and always advocated that the elite few needed to enforce their will on the rest as violently as necessary. There's a reason communism always works out the way it does - it's not just that its process is inherently corrupting to the ones leading it, it's a philosophy that actively embraces that very corruption. I'm gonna need some proof as to what you're saying. Panthera posted... So your argument is literally that communism can't possibly be criticized because it's not the only thing that has killed people. Because that kind of means that Nazism is preferable to communism or capitalism in your eyes. Okay, so you're not arguing in good faith, then. I have no obligation to argue with you. --- Disagreeing with your criticism doesn't make me a fanboy; disagreeing with your praise doesn't make me a hater. Fighting over this is self-destructive. <cite>BowserCuffs posted [p:884898736] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Panthera posted...</cite> <quote><cite>BowserCuffs posted...</cite> <quote> I'm not even pro-commie, by the way. Just pointing out that communism isn't a philosophy based on hate, just a failed economic system - where Nazism is absolutely a philosophy based on hate, and so deserves far more scrutiny and hatred than communism. I don't really care about the Lenin statue, though. Like I said earlier, I just have no chill.</quote> No, communism is absolutely a philosophy based on hate. The idea is fundamentally built on terrorism and tyranny. Marx specifically referred to the process needed to create a communist society as "revolutionary terror" and always advocated that the elite few needed to enforce their will on the rest as violently as necessary. There's a reason communism always works out the way it does - it's not just that its process is inherently corrupting to the ones leading it, it's a philosophy that actively embraces that very corruption.</quote> I'm gonna need some proof as to what you're saying. <cite>Panthera posted...</cite> <quote>So your argument is literally that communism can't possibly be criticized because it's not the only thing that has killed people. Because that kind of means that Nazism is preferable to communism or capitalism in your eyes.</quote> Okay, so you're not arguing in good faith, then. I have no obligation to argue with you.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Wanglicious 08/16/17 4:59:49 PM #53:	Jakyl25 posted... But this seemed more like a parody than an actual push yeah, because there really wasn't anything organized here or anything and the timing/cause of it is pretty bad. like really, the source of this idea is in direct response to the Robert E. Lee statue. most conservatives are just noping the fuck out of anything to do with a literal Nazi rally. this idea will probably hold but again, too soon. way, way too soon. for now the right wing will focus on their own rallies, the one that finished in Washington, the one up in Boston this weekend i think, and whatever else they've got. eventually i expect some more anti-communist rhetoric to spill into their mainstream talking points. they're sort of there at the moment, antifa has been known to have old Soviet flags or their own modified ones with the gulag on it. example from Berkeley a few months ago: but i don't think it'll transition that fast. it's just the direction the right is likely to go. --- "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel. <cite>Wanglicious posted [p:884898827] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Jakyl25 posted...</cite> <quote> But this seemed more like a parody than an actual push</quote> yeah, because there really wasn't anything organized here or anything and the timing/cause of it is pretty bad. like really, the source of this idea is in direct response to the Robert E. Lee statue. most conservatives are just noping the fuck out of anything to do with a literal Nazi rally. this idea will probably hold but again, too soon. way, way too soon. for now the right wing will focus on their own rallies, the one that finished in Washington, the one up in Boston this weekend i think, and whatever else they've got. eventually i expect some more anti-communist rhetoric to spill into their mainstream talking points. they're sort of there at the moment, antifa has been known to have old Soviet flags or their own modified ones with the gulag on it. example from Berkeley a few months ago: but i don't think it'll transition that fast. it's just the direction the right is likely to go.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jakyl25 08/16/17 5:01:11 PM #54:	BowserCuffs, think about it If you have a communist system, and there's any resistance to it at all, you have to shut that resistance down. Communism to work best requires everyone to be in on it. And that CAN happen, in smaller communities, but it's very unlikely to have literally zero dissent for very long on a national level --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvGKDK2WIAAmKTf?format=jpg&name=large <cite>Jakyl25 posted [p:884898907] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>BowserCuffs, think about it If you have a communist system, and there's any resistance to it at all, you have to shut that resistance down. Communism to work best requires everyone to be in on it. And that CAN happen, in smaller communities, but it's very unlikely to have literally zero dissent for very long on a national level</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Panthera 08/16/17 5:02:25 PM #55:	BowserCuffs posted... Okay, so you're not arguing in good faith, then. I have no obligation to argue with you. Lessons in bad faith arguments from the guy whose response is to read what I say and arbitrarily accuse me of having a position on an unrelated ideology I hadn't even vaguely referenced because fuck addressing what people say when you can just write fanfiction about them instead --- We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny <cite>Panthera posted [p:884898974] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>BowserCuffs posted...</cite> <quote> Okay, so you're not arguing in good faith, then. I have no obligation to argue with you.</quote> Lessons in bad faith arguments from the guy whose response is to read what I say and arbitrarily accuse me of having a position on an unrelated ideology I hadn't even vaguely referenced because fuck addressing what people say when you can just write fanfiction about them instead</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BowserCuffs 08/16/17 5:03:33 PM #56:	Jakyl25 posted... BowserCuffs, think about it If you have a communist system, and there's any resistance to it at all, you have to shut that resistance down. Communism to work best requires everyone to be in on it. And that CAN happen, in smaller communities, but it's very unlikely to have literally zero dissent for very long on a national level Like I said. I'm not pro-commie. It's a failed system. I'm just pissed that free speech advocates defend the time that the First Amendment was absolutely broken, by conservatives (and some liberals, to be fair) because they were having a pissing contest with Russia over whether capitalism or communism was better. ~~The whole "capitalism death toll" comment was to point out how absurd the pissing contest was in the first place.~~ Panthera posted... arbitrarily accuse me of having a position on an unrelated ideology I hadn't even vaguely referenced because fuck addressing what people say when you can just write fanfiction about them instead ...Wow, you have no self awareness, do you? --- Disagreeing with your criticism doesn't make me a fanboy; disagreeing with your praise doesn't make me a hater. Fighting over this is self-destructive. <cite>BowserCuffs posted [p:884899040] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Jakyl25 posted...</cite> <quote>BowserCuffs, think about it If you have a communist system, and there's any resistance to it at all, you have to shut that resistance down. Communism to work best requires everyone to be in on it. And that CAN happen, in smaller communities, but it's very unlikely to have literally zero dissent for very long on a national level</quote> Like I said. I'm not pro-commie. It's a failed system. I'm just pissed that free speech advocates defend the time that the First Amendment was absolutely broken, by conservatives (and some liberals, to be fair) because they were having a pissing contest with Russia over whether capitalism or communism was better. The whole "capitalism death toll" comment was to point out how absurd the pissing contest was in the first place. <cite>Panthera posted...</cite> <quote>arbitrarily accuse me of having a position on an unrelated ideology I hadn't even vaguely referenced because fuck addressing what people say when you can just write fanfiction about them instead</quote> ...Wow, you have no self awareness, do you?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kenri 08/16/17 5:03:38 PM #57:	red sox 777 posted... But it's a real shame if we're really going to go on a national spree of tearing down statues. I dunno, it sounds like a great idea to me. --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. <cite>Kenri posted [p:884899042] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote>But it's a real shame if we're really going to go on a national spree of tearing down statues.</quote> I dunno, it sounds like a great idea to me.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EndOfDiscOne 08/16/17 5:04:18 PM #58:	https://twitter.com/ofctimallen/status/897687107191414784 Not political, but I laughed: https://twitter.com/ofctimallen/status/883852991358537732 --- Ulti was right <cite>EndOfDiscOne posted [p:884899072] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>https://twitter.com/ofctimallen/status/897687107191414784 Not political, but I laughed: https://twitter.com/ofctimallen/status/883852991358537732</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jakyl25 08/16/17 5:05:37 PM #59:	BowserCuffs posted... The whole "capitalism death toll" comment was to point out how absurd the pissing contest was in the first place. Sure. Both pure capitalism and pure communism are murderous, and the only difference in the death tolls is opportunity --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvGKDK2WIAAmKTf?format=jpg&name=large <cite>Jakyl25 posted [p:884899144] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>BowserCuffs posted...</cite> <quote>The whole "capitalism death toll" comment was to point out how absurd the pissing contest was in the first place.</quote> Sure. Both pure capitalism and pure communism are murderous, and the only difference in the death tolls is opportunity</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jakyl25 08/16/17 5:08:37 PM #60:	EndOfDiscOne posted... https://twitter.com/ofctimallen/status/897687107191414784 Sure let's drag this dumb argument out of mothballs too. Why not! --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvGKDK2WIAAmKTf?format=jpg&name=large <cite>Jakyl25 posted [p:884899312] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>EndOfDiscOne posted...</cite> <quote>https://twitter.com/ofctimallen/status/897687107191414784</quote> Sure let's drag this dumb argument out of mothballs too. Why not!</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BowserCuffs 08/16/17 5:08:41 PM #61:	Jakyl25 posted... BowserCuffs posted... The whole "capitalism death toll" comment was to point out how absurd the pissing contest was in the first place. Sure. Both pure capitalism and pure communism are murderous, and the only difference in the death tolls is opportunity Exactly! Which is why the system needs counterbalances, needs regulation. Anytime a flaw or corruption arises, it needs to be stamped out and the spot where it sprouted reshaped so that it can't happen again. And I'm getting tired of seeing people undo these changes just because "We're all temporarily inconvenienced millionaires that just need the government to stop preventing us from having the opportunity to make loads of money because that's totally how economics works." It's time to accept that pure capitalism is just as bad as pure communism (though some could suggest that it's actually worse) and that just because people want some socialism does not mean they want pure socialism, either. We will never have a utopia, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for one. --- Disagreeing with your criticism doesn't make me a fanboy; disagreeing with your praise doesn't make me a hater. Fighting over this is self-destructive. <cite>BowserCuffs posted [p:884899320] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Jakyl25 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>BowserCuffs posted...</cite> <quote>The whole "capitalism death toll" comment was to point out how absurd the pissing contest was in the first place.</quote> Sure. Both pure capitalism and pure communism are murderous, and the only difference in the death tolls is opportunity</quote> Exactly! Which is why the system needs counterbalances, needs regulation. Anytime a flaw or corruption arises, it needs to be stamped out and the spot where it sprouted reshaped so that it can't happen again. And I'm getting tired of seeing people undo these changes just because "We're all temporarily inconvenienced millionaires that just need the government to stop preventing us from having the opportunity to make loads of money because that's totally how economics works." It's time to accept that pure capitalism is just as bad as pure communism (though some could suggest that it's actually worse) and that just because people want some socialism does not mean they want pure socialism, either. We will never have a utopia, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for one.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jakyl25 08/16/17 5:09:35 PM #62:	https://twitter.com/joemande/status/897824511441199104 Great response to a dumb political cartoon --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvGKDK2WIAAmKTf?format=jpg&name=large <cite>Jakyl25 posted [p:884899380] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>https://twitter.com/joemande/status/897824511441199104 Great response to a dumb political cartoon</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 08/16/17 5:11:31 PM #63:	Kenri posted... red sox 777 posted... But it's a real shame if we're really going to go on a national spree of tearing down statues. I dunno, it sounds like a great idea to me. And that is frightening to me. Smartmuffin's kill or be killed world is not impossible, it only needs enough mutual belief that it is what the other side is planning. People will accept pretty much anything if they believe it is to stop an existential threat to themselves. --- September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013 Congratulations to DP Oblivion in the Guru Contest! <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:884899485] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kenri posted...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote>But it's a real shame if we're really going to go on a national spree of tearing down statues.</quote> I dunno, it sounds like a great idea to me.</quote> And that is frightening to me. Smartmuffin's kill or be killed world is not impossible, it only needs enough mutual belief that it is what the other side is planning. People will accept pretty much anything if they believe it is to stop an existential threat to themselves.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dancedreamer 08/16/17 5:12:31 PM #64:	I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything. --- This isn't funny Dean, the voice says I'm almost out of minutes! ~Alexandra <cite>Dancedreamer posted [p:884899549] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Panthera 08/16/17 5:13:00 PM #65:	BowserCuffs posted... ...Wow, you have no self awareness, do you? Let's recap. You say that "Nazism is better than communism because it killed fewer people" is a bad idea and indicative of believing Cold War propaganda. I point out that it's not propaganda to be aware that communism is an ideology that has prompted a lot of horrible things. You accuse me of being ignorantly fond of capitalism. I never said that Nazism was good or commented on capitalism at all, only that writing off criticism of communism as simply believing propaganda is absurd (which it is, because it pisses me off that it has become increasingly common for people to engage in historical revisionism about communism and the atrocities carried out in its name). You then it is bad faith on my part to not bow down to your fabrications. What exactly am I lacking self awareness of? Do I have a sticker on my head that says "Guys I wish corporations could legally commit genocide out in the open" or something? --- We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny <cite>Panthera posted [p:884899574] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>BowserCuffs posted...</cite> <quote> ...Wow, you have no self awareness, do you?</quote> Let's recap. You say that "Nazism is better than communism because it killed fewer people" is a bad idea and indicative of believing Cold War propaganda. I point out that it's not propaganda to be aware that communism is an ideology that has prompted a lot of horrible things. You accuse me of being ignorantly fond of capitalism. I never said that Nazism was good or commented on capitalism at all, only that writing off criticism of communism as simply believing propaganda is absurd (which it is, because it pisses me off that it has become increasingly common for people to engage in historical revisionism about communism and the atrocities carried out in its name). You then it is bad faith on my part to not bow down to your fabrications. What exactly am I lacking self awareness of? Do I have a sticker on my head that says "Guys I wish corporations could legally commit genocide out in the open" or something?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kenri 08/16/17 5:14:06 PM #66:	red sox 777 posted... Kenri posted... red sox 777 posted... But it's a real shame if we're really going to go on a national spree of tearing down statues. I dunno, it sounds like a great idea to me. And that is frightening to me. i'm sorry you were born a statue but i am personally going to tear you down and kick you a little --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. <cite>Kenri posted [p:884899643] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Kenri posted...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote>But it's a real shame if we're really going to go on a national spree of tearing down statues.</quote> I dunno, it sounds like a great idea to me.</quote> And that is frightening to me.</quote> i'm sorry you were born a statue but i am personally going to tear you down and kick you a little</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
kevwaffles 08/16/17 5:22:50 PM #67:	I've already called in a ringer to stop your statue rampage. http://nintendonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tanooki_mario_costume_super_mario_maker.jpg --- "One toot on this whistle will take you to a far away land." -Toad, SMB3 <cite>kevwaffles posted [p:884900126] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>I've already called in a ringer to stop your statue rampage. http://nintendonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tanooki_mario_costume_super_mario_maker.jpg</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 08/16/17 5:24:02 PM #68:	Dancedreamer posted... I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything. And what will we learn about him in history classes? That he supported a slaveholding state? What will we learn about Lenin? That he founded a mass murdering state? This is not an accurate or insightful history. This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened. It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors. My fears might be overblown, but then, they might not. --- September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013 Congratulations to DP Oblivion in the Guru Contest! <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:884900202] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Dancedreamer posted...</cite> <quote>I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything.</quote> And what will we learn about him in history classes? That he supported a slaveholding state? What will we learn about Lenin? That he founded a mass murdering state? This is not an accurate or insightful history. This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened. It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors. My fears might be overblown, but then, they might not.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jakyl25 08/16/17 5:24:12 PM #69:	Dancedreamer posted... I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything. https://twitter.com/dvsblast/status/897571280710455296 "if we tear down statues of racists whats next? saying racism is bad? not being racist? no longer doing hate crimes? slippery slope,friends" --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvGKDK2WIAAmKTf?format=jpg&name=large <cite>Jakyl25 posted [p:884900213] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Dancedreamer posted...</cite> <quote>I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything.</quote> https://twitter.com/dvsblast/status/897571280710455296 <quote>"if we tear down statues of racists whats next? saying racism is bad? not being racist? no longer doing hate crimes? slippery slope,friends"</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kenri 08/16/17 5:24:35 PM #70:	your little japanese plumber cannot save you, i'm gonna tear down every statue except the statue of liberty which will be forced to wear a hijab --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. <cite>Kenri posted [p:884900235] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>your little japanese plumber cannot save you, i'm gonna tear down every statue except the statue of liberty which will be forced to wear a hijab</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jakyl25 08/16/17 5:25:08 PM #71:	red sox 777 posted... Dancedreamer posted... I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything. And what will we learn about him in history classes? That he supported a slaveholding state? What will we learn about Lenin? That he founded a mass murdering state? This is not an accurate or insightful history. This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened. It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors. My fears might be overblown, but then, they might not. What do we learn about him from statues? That he could ride a horse? --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvGKDK2WIAAmKTf?format=jpg&name=large <cite>Jakyl25 posted [p:884900269] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dancedreamer posted...</cite> <quote>I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything.</quote> And what will we learn about him in history classes? That he supported a slaveholding state? What will we learn about Lenin? That he founded a mass murdering state? This is not an accurate or insightful history. This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened. It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors. My fears might be overblown, but then, they might not.</quote> What do we learn about him from statues? That he could ride a horse?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
StealThisSheen 08/16/17 5:26:11 PM #72:	red sox 777 posted... It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors. Uh, during the Civil War, the other side WAS out to get them EDIT: Sorry it attributed the quote to Jakyl --- Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! <cite>StealThisSheen posted [p:884900336] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote>It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors.</quote> Uh, during the Civil War, the other side WAS out to get them EDIT: Sorry it attributed the quote to Jakyl</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jakyl25 08/16/17 5:27:03 PM #73:	Kenri posted... your little japanese plumber cannot save you, i'm gonna tear down every statue except the statue of liberty which will be forced to wear a hijab I dunno, one alt-right guy already said a magazine was personally attacking them because they posed people in front of the Statue of Liberty as-is with no other context <_< --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvGKDK2WIAAmKTf?format=jpg&name=large <cite>Jakyl25 posted [p:884900376] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kenri posted...</cite> <quote>your little japanese plumber cannot save you, i'm gonna tear down every statue except the statue of liberty which will be forced to wear a hijab</quote> I dunno, one alt-right guy already said a magazine was personally attacking them because they posed people in front of the Statue of Liberty as-is with no other context <_<</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kenri 08/16/17 5:27:23 PM #74:	Jakyl25 posted... What do we learn about him from statues? That he could ride a horse? those who forget the horses are destined to re-meet them --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. <cite>Kenri posted [p:884900395] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Jakyl25 posted...</cite> <quote>What do we learn about him from statues? That he could ride a horse?</quote> those who forget the horses are destined to re-meet them</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jakyl25 08/16/17 5:27:27 PM #75:	StealThisSheen posted... Jakyl25 posted... It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors. Uh, during the Civil War, the other side WAS out to get them Not me not me! --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvGKDK2WIAAmKTf?format=jpg&name=large <cite>Jakyl25 posted [p:884900400] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>StealThisSheen posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Jakyl25 posted...</cite> <quote>It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors.</quote> Uh, during the Civil War, the other side WAS out to get them</quote> Not me not me!</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pjbasis 08/16/17 5:28:13 PM #76:	Jakyl25 posted... What do we learn about him from statues? That he could ride a horse? That something about him is celebrated obviously? --- http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/Rakaputra/B8%20Girls%202012/pjbas.png <cite>pjbasis posted [p:884900442] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Jakyl25 posted...</cite> <quote>What do we learn about him from statues? That he could ride a horse?</quote> That something about him is celebrated obviously?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
StealThisSheen 08/16/17 5:28:23 PM #77:	Jakyl25 posted... StealThisSheen posted... Jakyl25 posted... It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors. Uh, during the Civil War, the other side WAS out to get them Not me not me! Fixed! Sorry! --- Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! <cite>StealThisSheen posted [p:884900453] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Jakyl25 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>StealThisSheen posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Jakyl25 posted...</cite> <quote>It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors.</quote> Uh, during the Civil War, the other side WAS out to get them</quote> Not me not me!</quote> Fixed! Sorry!</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Dancedreamer 08/16/17 5:29:15 PM #78:	red sox 777 posted... This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened. I'm pretty sure more is taught in History class than you can glean from statues--which are meant to honor people. So why is Robert E. Lee being honored? Did he win the war? Did he fight for a good cause? And why were those statues built in the first place? --- This isn't funny Dean, the voice says I'm almost out of minutes! ~Alexandra <cite>Dancedreamer posted [p:884900490] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote>This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened.</quote> I'm pretty sure more is taught in History class than you can glean from statues--which are meant to honor people. So why is Robert E. Lee being honored? Did he win the war? Did he fight for a good cause? And why were those statues built in the first place?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
StealThisSheen 08/16/17 5:31:37 PM #79:	Was red sox the one that insisted most people learn about history only from seeing statues and then going home and researching them --- Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! <cite>StealThisSheen posted [p:884900627] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>Was red sox the one that insisted most people learn about history only from seeing statues and then going home and researching them</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Wanglicious 08/16/17 5:34:06 PM #80:	Panthera posted... So your argument is literally that communism can't possibly be criticized because it's not the only thing that has killed people. Because that kind of means that Nazism is preferable to communism or capitalism in your eyes. okay, read the last topic and what muffin said... i think i get what he's trying to say. obviously both suck so not many disclaimers there needed. Nazism's greatest evil comes less from what it does to its home country but more of what it does to everyone else. the priority isn't improvement of the nation, it's murder. the stronger state is a side effect to genocide and slave labor of certain minorities. the people inside the country are generally not as damaged as you'll see in communism and in a country like ours, which is 70% white (55-60% if you get rid of the hispanics too), going by the numbers the majority would be safe. if Muffin had to pick between communists and Nazis, self-preservation says he is right to pick the latter. this isn't an argument about moral choices, just saving his own skin. communism's evil comes from what it does to its own people, it doesn't do nearly as much damage outside its borders. if you're in 'em though, everyone gets fucked by it. Stalin had more people in labor camps, has 1.5-2x Hitler's death count, and certain regions simply starved to death. Mao's was MUCH worse with some 70 million killed, about half of which came in 4 years. communism destroys its own country and can realistically only lead to dictatorships so if you're like Muffin and consider a lot of government control already an evil, this is pretty much the greatest sin possible on all fronts as it hurts him, it's against his principles, and it fails at every level. whichever one is a bigger evil largely depends on a couple different principles but honestly that's just a dick waving contest of which bullet do you want, the one in the back of your head or six shells in the chest. i'll take neither, thanks. fuck both and we ain't close to either. (and yes, free speech for both, we know my positions here by now.) --- "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel. <cite>Wanglicious posted [p:884900782] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Panthera posted...</cite> <quote> So your argument is literally that communism can't possibly be criticized because it's not the only thing that has killed people. Because that kind of means that Nazism is preferable to communism or capitalism in your eyes.</quote> okay, read the last topic and what muffin said... i think i get what he's trying to say. obviously both suck so not many disclaimers there needed. Nazism's greatest evil comes less from what it does to its home country but more of what it does to everyone else. the priority isn't improvement of the nation, it's murder. the stronger state is a side effect to genocide and slave labor of certain minorities. the people inside the country are generally not as damaged as you'll see in communism and in a country like ours, which is 70% white (55-60% if you get rid of the hispanics too), going by the numbers the majority would be safe. if Muffin had to pick between communists and Nazis, self-preservation says he is right to pick the latter. this isn't an argument about moral choices, just saving his own skin. communism's evil comes from what it does to its own people, it doesn't do nearly as much damage outside its borders. if you're in 'em though, everyone gets fucked by it. Stalin had more people in labor camps, has 1.5-2x Hitler's death count, and certain regions simply starved to death. Mao's was MUCH worse with some 70 million killed, about half of which came in 4 years. communism destroys its own country and can realistically only lead to dictatorships so if you're like Muffin and consider a lot of government control already an evil, this is pretty much the greatest sin possible on all fronts as it hurts him, it's against his principles, and it fails at every level. whichever one is a bigger evil largely depends on a couple different principles but honestly that's just a dick waving contest of which bullet do you want, the one in the back of your head or six shells in the chest. i'll take neither, thanks. fuck both and we ain't close to either. (and yes, free speech for both, we know my positions here by now.)</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SgtSphynx 08/16/17 5:34:51 PM #81:	I realize the discussion has moved on, but I just want to point out, again, that Smuffin was making the same argument as an actual white supremacist to justify racist views. --- Congrats to the BYIG Guru Winner, BKSheikah slurps yakisoba nods nods <cite>SgtSphynx posted [p:884900825] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>I realize the discussion has moved on, but I just want to point out, again, that Smuffin was making the same argument as an actual white supremacist to justify racist views.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
StealThisSheen 08/16/17 5:38:48 PM #82:	SgtSphynx posted... I realize the discussion has moved on, but I just want to point out, again, that Smuffin was making the same argument as an actual white supremacist to justify racist views. Smuffin being racist isn't surprising, though --- Seplito Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! <cite>StealThisSheen posted [p:884901073] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>SgtSphynx posted...</cite> <quote>I realize the discussion has moved on, but I just want to point out, again, that Smuffin was making the same argument as an actual white supremacist to justify racist views.</quote> Smuffin being racist isn't surprising, though</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jakyl25 08/16/17 5:39:01 PM #83:	Wanglicious posted... f* both and we ain't close to either. So you don't give credence to the anarcho-libertarian idea that taxes = slavery and that's the same as communism? <_< --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvGKDK2WIAAmKTf?format=jpg&name=large <cite>Jakyl25 posted [p:884901087] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Wanglicious posted...</cite> <quote>f* both and we ain't close to either. </quote> So you don't give credence to the anarcho-libertarian idea that taxes = slavery and that's the same as communism? <_<</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Wanglicious 08/16/17 5:39:18 PM #84:	unfortunately it's an argument of fear. another emotional argument that's not something you can really argue much over and not all that rational. radicalizing is not the way to go for anyone, that continues to escalate everything. --- "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel. <cite>Wanglicious posted [p:884901099] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>unfortunately it's an argument of fear. another emotional argument that's not something you can really argue much over and not all that rational. radicalizing is not the way to go for anyone, that continues to escalate everything.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Wanglicious 08/16/17 5:41:49 PM #85:	>_> you're cheeky when you say that jakyl but at this point i've been called a nazi, far right, white supremacist and much more despite the argument being heavily grounded in liberalism and things you'd see the ACLU say/defend so i don't know how sarcastic posts about my views are anymore. --- "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel. <cite>Wanglicious posted [p:884901238] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>>_> you're cheeky when you say that jakyl but at this point i've been called a nazi, far right, white supremacist and much more despite the argument being heavily grounded in liberalism and things you'd see the ACLU say/defend so i don't know how sarcastic posts about my views are anymore.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mr Lasastryke 08/16/17 5:43:48 PM #86:	Wanglicious posted... i've been called a nazi, when did this happen? --- Geothermal terpsichorean ejectamenta <cite>Mr Lasastryke posted [p:884901356] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Wanglicious posted...</cite> <quote>i've been called a nazi,</quote> when did this happen?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SgtSphynx 08/16/17 5:43:55 PM #87:	Wanglicious posted... unfortunately it's an argument of fear. another emotional argument that's not something you can really argue much over and not all that rational. radicalizing is not the way to go for anyone, that continues to escalate everything. Oh, it is absolutely an argument of fear. --- Congrats to the BYIG Guru Winner, BKSheikah slurps yakisoba nods nods <cite>SgtSphynx posted [p:884901361] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Wanglicious posted...</cite> <quote>unfortunately it's an argument of fear. another emotional argument that's not something you can really argue much over and not all that rational. radicalizing is not the way to go for anyone, that continues to escalate everything.</quote> Oh, it is absolutely an argument of fear.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 08/16/17 5:44:23 PM #88:	Jakyl25 posted... red sox 777 posted... Dancedreamer posted... I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything. And what will we learn about him in history classes? That he supported a slaveholding state? What will we learn about Lenin? That he founded a mass murdering state? This is not an accurate or insightful history. This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened. It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors. My fears might be overblown, but then, they might not. What do we learn about him from statues? That he could ride a horse? That many people in our community respected him. Not a theoretical community in some history book. Our community. Our ancestors. This forces people to honestly look at history instead of "othering" people. Also, if it was just the statues, it wouldn't have a big effect, I think. But the same attitude that leads people to take down statues can lead to history books that replace history with packaged moral lessons. If it's not scary to you, imagine a future where your side loses, and Jefferson Davis's history of the Civil War becomes the standard textbook in schools. That book has about 5 pages of poorly written argument about why the South was good and the North bad for every one historical fact it contains. He was evidently not a great propagandist. Imagine it rewritten, with the same message to fact ratio. --- September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013 Congratulations to DP Oblivion in the Guru Contest! <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:884901396] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Jakyl25 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Dancedreamer posted...</cite> <quote>I'm sure Robert E. Lee will be forgotten if we take down his statues. It's not like we learn about him in history class or anything.</quote> And what will we learn about him in history classes? That he supported a slaveholding state? What will we learn about Lenin? That he founded a mass murdering state? This is not an accurate or insightful history. This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened. It is demonization, and it sets up a society in which people believe the other political faction is out to get them. Then there is a war, and then, horrors. My fears might be overblown, but then, they might not.</quote> What do we learn about him from statues? That he could ride a horse?</quote> That many people in our community respected him. Not a theoretical community in some history book. Our community. Our ancestors. This forces people to honestly look at history instead of "othering" people. Also, if it was just the statues, it wouldn't have a big effect, I think. But the same attitude that leads people to take down statues can lead to history books that replace history with packaged moral lessons. If it's not scary to you, imagine a future where your side loses, and Jefferson Davis's history of the Civil War becomes the standard textbook in schools. That book has about 5 pages of poorly written argument about why the South was good and the North bad for every one historical fact it contains. He was evidently not a great propagandist. Imagine it rewritten, with the same message to fact ratio.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MenuWars 08/16/17 5:45:44 PM #89:	SgtSphynx posted... I realize the discussion has moved on, but I just want to point out, again, that Smuffin was making the same argument as an actual white supremacist to justify racist views. I just finished reading it and can't quite believe he got away with it. Guess everyone's already cut their losses with him or something? --- I'm bad at Maffs. BEDMAS Bioshock, Earthworm Jim, Diablo 2, Mass Effect 2, Ark: Survival Evolved, Super Meat Boy <cite>MenuWars posted [p:884901477] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>SgtSphynx posted...</cite> <quote>I realize the discussion has moved on, but I just want to point out, again, that Smuffin was making the same argument as an actual white supremacist to justify racist views.</quote> I just finished reading it and can't quite believe he got away with it. Guess everyone's already cut their losses with him or something?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BowserCuffs 08/16/17 5:47:14 PM #90:	red sox 777 posted... That many people in our community respected him. Not a theoretical community in some history book. Our community. Our ancestors. This forces people to honestly look at history instead of "othering" people. I haven't seen any evidence that it does any of this. --- Disagreeing with your criticism doesn't make me a fanboy; disagreeing with your praise doesn't make me a hater. Fighting over this is self-destructive. <cite>BowserCuffs posted [p:884901572] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote>That many people in our community respected him. Not a theoretical community in some history book. Our community. Our ancestors. This forces people to honestly look at history instead of "othering" people.</quote> I haven't seen any evidence that it does any of this.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Wanglicious 08/16/17 5:48:40 PM #91:	'got away' i mean the topic just ended is all. if you wanna talk about it, just talk about it. or better yet, talk to him, there's certain viewpoints he may be able to give that help you understand the way he sees things. not that it's how things necessarily are or how things are to you, but the perspective he's got in the corners he frequents. --- "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel. <cite>Wanglicious posted [p:884901657] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>'got away' i mean the topic just ended is all. if you wanna talk about it, just talk about it. or better yet, talk to him, there's certain viewpoints he may be able to give that help you understand the way he sees things. not that it's how things necessarily are or how things are to you, but the perspective he's got in the corners he frequents.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kenri 08/16/17 5:49:30 PM #92:	red sox 777 posted... If it's not scary to you, imagine a future where your side loses, and Jefferson Davis's history of the Civil War becomes the standard textbook in schools. That book has about 5 pages of poorly written argument about why the South was good and the North bad for every one historical fact it contains. He was evidently not a great propagandist. Imagine it rewritten, with the same message to fact ratio. My side won and this basically still happened so lmao --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. <cite>Kenri posted [p:884901708] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote>If it's not scary to you, imagine a future where your side loses, and Jefferson Davis's history of the Civil War becomes the standard textbook in schools. That book has about 5 pages of poorly written argument about why the South was good and the North bad for every one historical fact it contains. He was evidently not a great propagandist. Imagine it rewritten, with the same message to fact ratio.</quote> My side won and this basically still happened so lmao</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Wanglicious 08/16/17 5:50:04 PM #93:	Mr Lasastryke posted... Wanglicious posted... i've been called a nazi, when did this happen? alright, i'm honestly too lazy right now to Ctrl F through the past like 8 topics but if i wasn't and it was left at things like nazi apologist or whatever, i'll stand corrected. --- "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel. <cite>Wanglicious posted [p:884901741] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Mr Lasastryke posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Wanglicious posted...</cite> <quote>i've been called a nazi,</quote> when did this happen?</quote> alright, i'm honestly too lazy right now to Ctrl F through the past like 8 topics but if i wasn't and it was left at things like nazi apologist or whatever, i'll stand corrected.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EndOfDiscOne 08/16/17 5:51:19 PM #94:	Wanglicious posted... Mr Lasastryke posted... Wanglicious posted... i've been called a nazi, when did this happen? alright, i'm honestly too lazy right now to Ctrl F through the past like 8 topics but if i wasn't and it was left at things like nazi apologist or whatever, i'll stand corrected. I'm pretty sure someone called you a white supremacist. Lapulis or whatever his name is. --- Ulti was right <cite>EndOfDiscOne posted [p:884901826] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Wanglicious posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Mr Lasastryke posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Wanglicious posted...</cite> <quote>i've been called a nazi,</quote> when did this happen?</quote> alright, i'm honestly too lazy right now to Ctrl F through the past like 8 topics but if i wasn't and it was left at things like nazi apologist or whatever, i'll stand corrected.</quote> I'm pretty sure someone called you a white supremacist. Lapulis or whatever his name is.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Peace___Frog 08/16/17 5:51:32 PM #95:	red sox 777 posted... This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened. And you don't think that statues are similarly obliterating context? Books and museums provide far more context than glorification does. --- ~Peaf~ <cite>Peace___Frog posted [p:884901838] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>red sox 777 posted...</cite> <quote>This is reducing people to their worst traits, while obliterating the context, thereby preventing any learning about how and why these things happened.</quote> And you don't think that statues are similarly obliterating context? Books and museums provide far more context than glorification does.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Kenri 08/16/17 5:51:52 PM #96:	Wanglicious posted... Nazism's greatest evil comes less from what it does to its home country but more of what it does to everyone else. also I get what you're trying to say here but nazism was pretty fucking terrible for large swathes of germans, too --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. <cite>Kenri posted [p:884901859] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Wanglicious posted...</cite> <quote>Nazism's greatest evil comes less from what it does to its home country but more of what it does to everyone else.</quote> also I get what you're trying to say here but nazism was pretty fucking terrible for large swathes of germans, too</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
pjbasis 08/16/17 5:53:36 PM #97:	Does Nazism not include its spread to other nations or is that a separate issue? The Nazis sure liked to spread! --- http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/Rakaputra/B8%20Girls%202012/pjbas.png <cite>pjbasis posted [p:884901952] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>Does Nazism not include its spread to other nations or is that a separate issue? The Nazis sure liked to spread!</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mr Lasastryke 08/16/17 5:53:58 PM #98:	Wanglicious posted... alright, i'm honestly too lazy right now to Ctrl F through the past like 8 topics but if i wasn't and it was left at things like nazi apologist or whatever, i'll stand corrected. not necessarily saying you're wrong, just saying i personally don't remember anyone accusing you of being a nazi. --- Geothermal terpsichorean ejectamenta <cite>Mr Lasastryke posted [p:884901974] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Wanglicious posted...</cite> <quote>alright, i'm honestly too lazy right now to Ctrl F through the past like 8 topics but if i wasn't and it was left at things like nazi apologist or whatever, i'll stand corrected.</quote> not necessarily saying you're wrong, just saying i personally don't remember anyone accusing you of being a nazi.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SgtSphynx 08/16/17 5:55:49 PM #99:	Holy shit https://www.wired.com/story/verizon-privacy-location-data-fourth-amendment --- Congrats to the BYIG Guru Winner, BKSheikah slurps yakisoba nods nods <cite>SgtSphynx posted [p:884902069] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>Holy shit https://www.wired.com/story/verizon-privacy-location-data-fourth-amendment</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MenuWars 08/16/17 5:56:38 PM #100:	Kenri posted... Wanglicious posted... Nazism's greatest evil comes less from what it does to its home country but more of what it does to everyone else. also I get what you're trying to say here but nazism was pretty fucking terrible for large swathes of germans, too This and from my experience with German people it's something they feel eternal embarrassment and guilt over. I guess you could go hyper cynical and say that's just because they lose, but I don't personally see it that way. --- I'm bad at Maffs. BEDMAS Bioshock, Earthworm Jim, Diablo 2, Mass Effect 2, Ark: Survival Evolved, Super Meat Boy <cite>MenuWars posted [p:884902124] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote><cite>Kenri posted...</cite> <quote><cite>Wanglicious posted...</cite> <quote>Nazism's greatest evil comes less from what it does to its home country but more of what it does to everyone else.</quote> also I get what you're trying to say here but nazism was pretty fucking terrible for large swathes of germans, too</quote> This and from my experience with German people it's something they feel eternal embarrassment and guilt over. I guess you could go hyper cynical and say that's just because they lose, but I don't personally see it that way.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
BowserCuffs 08/16/17 5:57:30 PM #101:	For starters, the Germans didn't leave relics of the old Nazi regime intact - they literally blew them up, and destroyed them, and made new monuments to remember the people oppressed and murdered by the Nazis. And look - their neo Nazis are forced underground and given no legitimacy and are harshly prosecuted for their actions, meaning that they don't become a problem like they are here. So, no, I don't think there's any historical problem with tearing down statues. I do think there are historical problems with leaving it up. --- Disagreeing with your criticism doesn't make me a fanboy; disagreeing with your praise doesn't make me a hater. Fighting over this is self-destructive. <cite>BowserCuffs posted [p:884902159] in Politics C... [t:75677497]...</cite> <quote>For starters, the Germans didn't leave relics of the old Nazi regime intact - they literally blew them up, and destroyed them, and made new monuments to remember the people oppressed and murdered by the Nazis. And look - their neo Nazis are forced underground and given no legitimacy and are harshly prosecuted for their actions, meaning that they don't become a problem like they are here. So, no, I don't think there's any historical problem with tearing down statues. I do think there are historical problems with leaving it up.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 126: Manufacturing Outrage (+) Yeah! (+)

Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 126: Manufacturing Outrage