Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 124: Still Heather Heyer. Deal with it.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Not_an_Owl posted...

Corrik, you know that MLK quote about how the worst enemy of the civil rights movement is the white moderate who prefers an absence of tension to the presence of justice?

That's you he was talking about.

Maybe. I believe in a legal system. If you tell me you should be able to be violent to someone for no cause and not be condemned for it or be told your wrong, then we will disagree all day.

Like, if when that car sped down the road, if someone shot that guy. Fair. That's self-defense and fear.

Going to a rally with the intention to be violent and then being violent? Or punching someone because you do not like what they are saying... these are crimes.

Both sides were wrong. And the rally should have never been allowed to have happened. That is not on the people to go counter protest. That is on the city and enforcement to stop.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

WhoopsyDaisy posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Dude

This isn't funny anymore

This man cannot be President

People use terms like "alt-right" without any kind of precision and everything else he said was true and relevant. The same conservative groups came to Charlottesville a couple months ago and there was no violence because Antifa didn't show up to initiate it.

You're not a better person for prioritizing catharsis over accuracy.

What GMUN said.

The advertisements for the event have Pepe and meme faces dude, it was specifically an alt right event.

The alt-right aren't the only ones who do meme things, or even pepe things.
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Corrik posted...

If you tell me you should be able to be violent to someone for no cause

Mother FUCKER.
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Wang literally fuck off.

Corrik is at least honest about who he is and can be understood if you can remember where hes coning from no matter how much i disagree with him for being so inflexible

Youre just a liar and a manipulator and I think most everyone is tired of your shtick by this point.
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Eddv posted...

You guys have to remember Corrik is 10,000% a legalist.

Hes going to oppose anything even remotely illegal.

Yes this has all sorts of problems illustrated by the Civil Rights movement but its what he believes and hes not being inconsistent.

Like you think you have a moral obligation to break the law and attack Nazis. He thinks no such moral obligation supercedes legality.

Great post

Thank you for the perspective
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b) did not expect it to be actual Nazis and not people joking around

this is no excuse. These "joke" nazis are just nazis without a spine.
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From the Unite the Right FB event page

The Unite the Right rally seeks to unify the right-wing against a totalitarian Communist crackdown, to speak out against displacement level immigration policies in the United States and Europe and to affirm the right of Southerners and white people to organize for their interests just like any other group is able to do, free of persecution.

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A black man got beaten with poles by white supremacists, but guys the left was just as bad.
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I don't care if the stated cause of a rally is anti-ISIS. I see a bunch of swastikas then I'm probably not going to join them.
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Eddv posted...

You guys have to remember Corrik is 10,000% a legalist.

Hes going to oppose anything even remotely illegal.

Yes this has all sorts of problems illustrated by the Civil Rights movement but its what he believes and hes not being inconsistent.

Like you think you have a moral obligation to break the law and attack Nazis. He thinks no such moral obligation supercedes legality.

I'm not criticizing him for being inconsistent, I'm criticizing him for slavishly following a completely amoral philosophy. (Not amoral in the sense that it's actively evil, but amoral in that he never even considers or cares about whether the laws he thoughtlessly obeys and insists that everyone else also obey are moral or not.)
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charmander6000 posted...

Is Kasich the best option for a challenge? Sure he was the last man standing, but he rarely looked like a viable candidate during the primaries.

He has nothing to lose. He's a term-limited governor, is older than Rubio/Cruz/Sasse, and has no interest in the Senate; whereas Rubio/Cruz/Sasse risk either getting primaried themselves or reduce their odds at 2024.
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The alt right threatened to attack a wake dedicated to someone they just murdered, but the left, man, don't they suck?
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WhoopsyDaisy posted...

You're not a better person for prioritizing catharsis over accuracy.

And you are, for prioritizing historical revisionism of an event that just happened over accuracy?
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Kinglicious posted...

Antifa took down the state flag and raised their own in it's place before burning the state one. They also were burning literal strawman crosses for some reason.

Trump would call this just as bad as what the other side did <_<
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Corrik posted...

Like, if when that car sped down the road, if someone shot that guy. Fair. That's self-defense and fear.

A speeding car is a threat you can respond to in self-defense, but carrying guns and torches and chanting "blood and soil", "Jews will not replace us," etc isn't? Seems weird. How close does the car have to be before you're allowed to extra-legally murder the driver?
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LapisLazuli posted...

The alt right threatened to attack a wake dedicated to someone they just murdered, but the left, man, don't they suck?

To be AS FAIR AS POSSIBLE this was just one awful site, not the whole movement
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

charmander6000 posted...

Is Kasich the best option for a challenge? Sure he was the last man standing, but he rarely looked like a viable candidate during the primaries.

He has nothing to lose. He's a term-limited governor, is older than Rubio/Cruz/Sasse, and has no interest in the Senate; whereas Rubio/Cruz/Sasse risk either getting primaried themselves or reduce their odds at 2024.

Do you think he could get all of their endorsements?

Maybe if he promised only 1 term?
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Eddv posted...

Youre just a liar and a manipulator

Show me some proof of either of these.
Go ahead.

If you don't like me too bad but I haven't lied about a damn thing.

MoogleKupo141 posted...

this is no excuse. These "joke" nazis are just nazis without a spine

Nah, that doesn't make sense. If they use imagery for shock value but don't hold any Nazi views or share the ideology, they aren't Nazis and they could've attended without condoning it.
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Kenri posted...

Corrik posted...

Like, if when that car sped down the road, if someone shot that guy. Fair. That's self-defense and fear.

A speeding car is a threat you can respond to in self-defense, but carrying guns and torches and chanting "blood and soil", "Jews will not replace us," etc isn't? Seems weird. How close does the car have to be before you're allowed to extra-legally murder the driver?

I think Corrik is still refusing to believe any of that happened.
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That American guy in Germany who got punched for doing Nazi Salutes in a bar. Did he deserve it? Probably. Sounds like a real douchebag. Does the guy who did it deserve to be arrested and booked for the crime? Yes. It is not that guys discretion to punch someone. He could have called the cops on the guy and had it taken care of. Did not have the right to take that into his own hands.


I mean, when I was younger, I was different. I felt invincible and had a fair share of brawls. It took a few years and too many times seeing the right person taking things into their own hands and ending up left in hospitals for trying to do the right thing.

The world can be scary and the legal system is there for a reason.

Nowadays if someone wants to fight with me... I just leave or ignore them. It isn't worth it. If they want to do something stupid, the cops can take care of it. That is their jobs.
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Kinglicious posted...

Eddv posted...

Youre just a liar and a manipulator

Show me some proof of either of these.
Go ahead.

If you don't like me too bad but I haven't lied about a damn thing.

MoogleKupo141 posted...

this is no excuse. These "joke" nazis are just nazis without a spine

Nah, that doesn't make sense. If they use imagery for shock value but don't hold any Nazi views or share the ideology, they aren't Nazis and they could've attended without condoning it.

I don't buy that anyone using Nazi imagery for shock value doesn't also hold Nazi views.
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Jakyl25 posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

The alt right threatened to attack a wake dedicated to someone they just murdered, but the left, man, don't they suck?

To be AS FAIR AS POSSIBLE this was just one awful site, not the whole movement

I'm not convinced that the rest of the movement wasn't all for it, though, judging by their behavior so far.
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Kinglicious posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

this is no excuse. These "joke" nazis are just nazis without a spine

Nah, that doesn't make sense. If they use imagery for shock value but don't hold any Nazi views or share the ideology, they aren't Nazis and they could've attended without condoning it.

If you are attending a march with nazis, chanting nazi slogans, and carrying signs with nazi iconography, then you are either a nazi or don't care that you are supporting nazi ideology, and at a certain point there is no difference between the two.
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Ed, how can Wang be a liar if he doesn't have anything to say? Guy regularly posts 5 paragraphs saying literally nothing of value.
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Corrik, the ultimate Lawful Neutral
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Corrik posted...

That American guy in Germany who got punched for doing Nazi Salutes in a bar. Did he deserve it? Probably. Sounds like a real douchebag. Does the guy who did it deserve to be arrested and booked for the crime? Yes. It is not that guys discretion to punch someone. He could have called the cops on the guy and had it taken care of. Did not have the right to take that into his own hands.


I mean, when I was younger, I was different. I felt invincible and had a fair share of brawls. It took a few years and too many times seeing the right person taking things into their own hands and ending up left in hospitals for trying to do the right thing.

The world can be scary and the legal system is there for a reason.

Nowadays if someone wants to fight with me... I just leave or ignore them. It isn't worth it. If they want to do something stupid, the cops can take care of it. That is their jobs.

And if those same people wanted to recruit people to exterminate you and your family would you leave them unchecked until they had enough people to do it?
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Kinglicious posted...

Nah, that doesn't make sense. If they use imagery for shock value but don't hold any Nazi views or share the ideology, they aren't Nazis and they could've attended without condoning it.

Do you think these people are learning their lesson?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik, the ultimate Lawful Neutral

He's more like Lawful Evil since he'll bend over backwards to excuse the legal system itself being crooked.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Kinglicious posted...

Antifa took down the state flag and raised their own in it's place before burning the state one. They also were burning literal strawman crosses for some reason.

Trump would call this just as bad as what the other side did <_<

Yeah, Trump ain't very good with nuance there to put it lightly. Did antifa do bad stuff, plenty of it. Not to "protest" them but to attack and try to take over the space too. Did the Nazis and white supremacists do worse stuff, yeah. Condemning both is totally cool but gotta call out the side that did worse and you gotta call the devil by his name. There's a way to say both are comitting wrongful acts without making it sound like you're saying murder is the same as literally anything else that went down.
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Kenri posted...

Corrik posted...

Like, if when that car sped down the road, if someone shot that guy. Fair. That's self-defense and fear.

A speeding car is a threat you can respond to in self-defense, but carrying guns and torches and chanting "blood and soil", "Jews will not replace us," etc isn't? Seems weird. How close does the car have to be before you're allowed to extra-legally murder the driver?

Uh, what? They are literally apples and oranges.

If someone is at your house burning a cross and shooting guns at your house while chanting some racist shit then yes that is self defense. Though I would recommend calling the cops first and not doing anything too crazy beforehand.
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lordloki12 posted...

Corrik posted...

That American guy in Germany who got punched for doing Nazi Salutes in a bar. Did he deserve it? Probably. Sounds like a real douchebag. Does the guy who did it deserve to be arrested and booked for the crime? Yes. It is not that guys discretion to punch someone. He could have called the cops on the guy and had it taken care of. Did not have the right to take that into his own hands.


I mean, when I was younger, I was different. I felt invincible and had a fair share of brawls. It took a few years and too many times seeing the right person taking things into their own hands and ending up left in hospitals for trying to do the right thing.

The world can be scary and the legal system is there for a reason.

Nowadays if someone wants to fight with me... I just leave or ignore them. It isn't worth it. If they want to do something stupid, the cops can take care of it. That is their jobs.

And if those same people wanted to recruit people to exterminate you and your family would you leave them unchecked until they had enough people to do it?

Pretty sure if Nazi's took over and said it was the law to kill 1 Jew a day, Corrik would walk down the streets to do his civil duty daily.
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Corrik posted...

Uh, what? They are literally apples and oranges.

If someone is at your house burning a cross and shooting guns at your house while chanting some racist shit then yes that is self defense. Though I would recommend calling the cops first and not doing anything too crazy beforehand.

Do they have to be shooting the guns or can they just be carrying them?
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https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/897554048446017538

Another wacky Trump statement
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lordloki12 posted...

Corrik posted...

That American guy in Germany who got punched for doing Nazi Salutes in a bar. Did he deserve it? Probably. Sounds like a real douchebag. Does the guy who did it deserve to be arrested and booked for the crime? Yes. It is not that guys discretion to punch someone. He could have called the cops on the guy and had it taken care of. Did not have the right to take that into his own hands.


I mean, when I was younger, I was different. I felt invincible and had a fair share of brawls. It took a few years and too many times seeing the right person taking things into their own hands and ending up left in hospitals for trying to do the right thing.

The world can be scary and the legal system is there for a reason.

Nowadays if someone wants to fight with me... I just leave or ignore them. It isn't worth it. If they want to do something stupid, the cops can take care of it. That is their jobs.

And if those same people wanted to recruit people to exterminate you and your family would you leave them unchecked until they had enough people to do it?

So you are arguing they are a terrorist organization? That is for the government and enforcement to handle. If they can bag them for conspiracy to murder, that is great. You have just gotten rid of them. If you think punching or being violent with someone like that is going to make a difference or even help state their case, you are wrong. You are fueling the sensationalized fire so to speak.
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Kenri posted...

Corrik posted...

Uh, what? They are literally apples and oranges.

If someone is at your house burning a cross and shooting guns at your house while chanting some racist shit then yes that is self defense. Though I would recommend calling the cops first and not doing anything too crazy beforehand.

Do they have to be shooting the guns or can they just be carrying them?

That is tricky and debatable. I would assume most states have laws on whether this is credible enough of self-defense or not.
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Not_an_Owl posted...

If you are attending a march with nazis, chanting nazi slogans, and carrying signs with nazi iconography, then you are either a nazi or don't care that you are supporting nazi ideology, and at a certain point there is no difference between the two.

If you're actively doing all that, probably yeah. But there are people who attended that didn't and didn't expect to see that. Not the majority but enough to say it's not everyone.

Jakyl25 posted...

Do you think these people are learning their lesson?

That they need to be more mindful of these things because actual Nazis think they're on the same side?

Yeah, 100%, it's a bit shocking to some of them. New right wing protests have been specific on pointing out they don't want Nazis either and are condemning it too. I'm pretty sure the people most angry at stormfront trying to co-opt the right like this are people on the right themselves, it's their own shit they need to clean up.
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Corrik posted...

That is tricky and debatable. I would assume most states have laws on whether this is credible enough of self-defense or not.

Okay, back to the car thing -- how do you tell when it's okay to murder someone who's driving pretty fast?
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To be fair Corrik is mostly right and the legal system if its working right will ultimately bear out extenuating circumstances (whether or not its working right is a different conversation worth having)

For instance if Nazi Puncher came before a judge the judge might take that into account and give a lesser punishment - probation for instance vs someone who just cold cocks someone for no reason in a bar.

The legal system is there to protect people - if its failing to do so we need reform and to be clear I think we do need major reforms and all of the marches in the streets are evidence of that fact
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Corrik, do you understand what "fighting words" are?

Basically, if you do something that you know will provoke people into violence against you, you can be held responsible for it.
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LapisLazuli posted...

lordloki12 posted...

Corrik posted...

That American guy in Germany who got punched for doing Nazi Salutes in a bar. Did he deserve it? Probably. Sounds like a real douchebag. Does the guy who did it deserve to be arrested and booked for the crime? Yes. It is not that guys discretion to punch someone. He could have called the cops on the guy and had it taken care of. Did not have the right to take that into his own hands.


I mean, when I was younger, I was different. I felt invincible and had a fair share of brawls. It took a few years and too many times seeing the right person taking things into their own hands and ending up left in hospitals for trying to do the right thing.

The world can be scary and the legal system is there for a reason.

Nowadays if someone wants to fight with me... I just leave or ignore them. It isn't worth it. If they want to do something stupid, the cops can take care of it. That is their jobs.

And if those same people wanted to recruit people to exterminate you and your family would you leave them unchecked until they had enough people to do it?

Pretty sure if Nazi's took over and said it was the law to kill 1 Jew a day, Corrik would walk down the streets to do his civil duty daily.

If America got to that point then somehow Nazis have made their case credible enough to have become the prevailing thought process and overtake society.

That will NEVER happen in America, and if it did, I would move my family from the country.
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Kenri posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik, the ultimate Lawful Neutral

He's more like Lawful Evil since he'll bend over backwards to excuse the legal system itself being crooked.

Nah, he's Lawful Neutral, he isn't trying to bend the law to justify his actions to benefit himself.
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Kinglicious posted...

Yeah, Trump ain't very good with nuance there to put it lightly. Did antifa do bad stuff, plenty of it. Not to "protest" them but to attack and try to take over the space too. Did the Nazis and white supremacists do worse stuff, yeah. Condemning both is totally cool but gotta call out the side that did worse and you gotta call the devil by his name. There's a way to say both are comitting wrongful acts without making it sound like you're saying murder is the same as literally anything else that went down

What kind of attacks? Where? How does it rate against "I literally don't think these people are human because of what they were born as"?

And calling "they didn't get the proper permit for their counter protest" "bad stuff" in the same paragraph as Nazis is like going to a serial killer's trial and being like "well a victim had 15 unpaid speeding tickets, and thus was a danger to society".

No matter how you swing it, your mentioning those much less bad things in the same breath is an attempt to diminish how bad the actual murderer is.
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https://twitter.com/drdavidduke/status/897559892164304896

Praise for this Trump tirade is rolling in!
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Kinglicious posted...

That they need to be more mindful of these things because actual Nazis think they're on the same side?

Yeah, 100%, it's a bit shocking to some of them. New right wing protests have been specific on pointing out they don't want Nazis either and are condemning it too. I'm pretty sure the people most angry at stormfront trying to co-opt the right like this are people on the right themselves, it's their own shit they need to clean up.

Sorry man, your old buds are Nazis. Of course a Nazi would deny being one. They'd be pretty shitty Nazis otherwise.
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Corrik posted...

Though I would recommend calling the cops first and not doing anything too crazy beforehand.

Friendly reminder though, cops weren't doing much here. Simply put, they ain't getting in between two gangs that hate each other. People on both sides were getting beat down with lead pipes or getting stabbed, cops barely did a damn thing to stop it.

And I can't blame them for that either but it's just gonna get worse.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

No matter how you swing it, your mentioning those much less bad things in the same breath is an attempt to diminish how bad the actual murderer is.

He's got to defend his team by any means necessary!
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https://twitter.com/djlavoie/status/897559679412449281

We live in extraordinary political times
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BowserCuffs posted...

Corrik, do you understand what "fighting words" are?

Basically, if you do something that you know will provoke people into violence against you, you can be held responsible for it.

Fighting words is a LOT more specific than you probably think it is.

Enough so that it barely exists. You can literally tell somebody you'll choke them to death and it does not count.
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Kinglicious posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

If you are attending a march with nazis, chanting nazi slogans, and carrying signs with nazi iconography, then you are either a nazi or don't care that you are supporting nazi ideology, and at a certain point there is no difference between the two.

If you're actively doing all that, probably yeah. But there are people who attended that didn't and didn't expect to see that. Not the majority but enough to say it's not everyone.

Did they leave? Like, if someone saw and heard what people on "their side" were doing and decided that actually, no, they didn't want to associate with nazis, they could have left at any point. The people who witnessed everything and stuck around I feel very comfortable calling nazis, because they actively chose to associate themselves with nazi activity.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

And calling "they didn't get the proper permit for their counter protest" "bad stuff" in the same paragraph

What are you talking about, I never once posted about permits. And the rest of your complaint is like you just stopped reading the post right there.
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