Board 8 > This is how political correctness dies

(+) Yeah! (+)

I think even the people involved kind of think it's funny.
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For a lot of guys their depression is intrinsically tied to the fact that they feel totally invisible to women.

True or not, that's how a lot of them (and sure, you can lump me in there too coz for a while this was me) see it.

Maybe you'd rather they go get a therapist to chuck anti-depressants at them or something.
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Metal_DK posted...

I agree with this. I dont think it has hurt their business much if at all. It might of helped it as well tbh.

Still doesnt take away from the fact that men go where the money is because it gives them a better chance to get a relationship

oh i definitely think it's helped, though for different reasons. they have to kiss the ring a bit so they don't get hit with various lawsuits or have to defend themselves from multiple media outlets for their practices. these are more societal reasons but when you're a company that big, it's part of the overall decision making process, just as much if not more than lobbying congress is. it's a necessary evil that changes based on societal norms.

leaving it to just a better chance of a relationship i think is dumbing it down. it's not just getting a girl, it's also the more widespread opinion of success. take wolves, lions, gorillas, etc as examples: the wolf leader isn't just the one who gets the girl, he's the one in control of a pack. the rest of them respect or fear him, he is of a higher status. that's why he gets the girl, that's why they follow him. being a "good man" is a similar thing; it's not just a better chance of a relationship, it's also having that elevated status above peers.

beyond any of the social interaction stuff that biology affects, there's also a more neurological difference that can explain why men end up picking jobs that aren't just high in status but highly demanding. not sure the best way to phrase this, but men do have a wider variety of brain activities. key word, variety. autism affects men 4:1, for example. i don't think anyone addressed Kan when he pulled out the IQ thing but he misunderstood that: it wasn't dog whistling for racists (IQ and races are more controversial and thanks to Nazis developing policy around that really have hindered any research there), it was pointing out that the bell curve for women is tighter than it is for men. that's to say, there are more stupid men and more genius men than there are women. that likely ties back to the autism issues, though we haven't really figured out the specifics yet. if you factor this in the drive for these difficult positions may not be just "I want to be pack leader," it may fall more under "I want to do work" and they just have a higher threshold.

and again to qualify, bell curve doesn't say "see, men are smarter!" or "men are dumber!" for any specific example. at an individual level none of this matters. what they can do is what they can do, simple as that. this is all macro talk using large groups.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

"Depressed guys used PUA stuff to give themselves confidence enough to turn things around but I would rather they stay depressed and kill themselves."

literally implying PUA stuff was the only way for them to get out of their depression.

I don't think he literally implied that, actually.
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MenuWars posted...

it's like when I said PUA the bat signal went out. I didn't even mean for this to happen, I trolled myself. Fuck.

youplayedyourself.gif

Truly though I saw this topic an hour ago before I went to take a nap and was gonna read/post in it anyway. It just so happened that when I got here, the discussion was right in my wheelhouse.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Maybe you'd rather they go get a therapist to chuck anti-depressants at them or something.

that's one possible solution, yes. the people in the depression topic on this very board also tend to give quite good advice to depressed people. unfortunately in some cases there's no solution that works.

but yeah, if PUA stuff prevented men from committing suicide that's nice, but i would still say that's a shaky argument to use to defend the movement. perhaps some guy didn't commit suicide because he read mein kampf - does that mean there's nothing wrong with the book? forgive me for not immediately jumping on the "PUA IS AWESOME" train just because of this argument.
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well, for the PUA talk...

i assume that most PUA are men who have not, and know they likely will not, achieve a great status. but they have an idea of what it looks like and try to present themselves as it or make the other person think they have it. it's an artificial creation and is just the lower end imitating the higher end, or what they perceive it to be.
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Lopen posted...

I don't think he literally implied that, actually.

my interpretation was that the alternative was that "they would stay depressed and kill themselves," but i may have misread that.
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I'm not asking you to think PUA is all awesome but I am asking you to not compare them to Nazis.
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The alternative is pretty obviously "they stay depressed longer and are at a greater risk of killing themselves due to staying depressed longer"

Which I mean, if those are the dice you wanna roll, then sure. I feel like most men who are reading up on PUA stuff are probably in a bad place or heading to a bad place, though (I see no reason you'd read into it except out of desperation), so I'm inclined to agree it probably has more benefits than drawbacks at a glance.

I think the only non-douche argument here is PUA causes more women to be depressed than it helps men not be depressed. And I'm not even sure you're making that one.
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I mean not all PUA stuff comes down to negging, and at that point I kind of agree with Extha that if you're getting tricked by these idiots then sleeping with them, that's your bloody problem, get to know people better first, or stop putting so much attention into who you have a one night stand with if you were only about the fucking.

*shrug*
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ExThaNemesis posted...

I'm not asking you to think PUA is all awesome but I am asking you to not compare them to Nazis.

it was an analogy, obviously.
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Lasa if the problem is "I am depressed because I am lonely and feel invisible to women" and you want most guys to avoid PUA stuff then you've gotta lead them to a better alternative to solving that problem.

If your solution is "treat all women with respect and be nice to them until one of them likes you" then guess what they have been hearing it all their lives and it has failed them. That's how they got to the PUA side of things in the first place.

And that's not to say that you can't respect women while doing the PUA stuff but yeah you're gonna have to take them off the pedestal in order to make it work for you.
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MenuWars posted...

I mean not all PUA stuff comes down to negging, and at that point I kind of agree with Extha that if you're getting tricked by these idiots then sleeping with them, that's your bloody problem, get to know people better first, or stop putting so much attention into who you have a one night stand with if you were only about the fucking.

I mean my view of PUA is like this whole package. When I started all this stuff I built from the ground up. Learned how to dress well. Learned how to eat right. Learned how to lift weights/exercise. And then it was the small subtle shit like, don't buy girls drinks at the bar right at the start of the interaction. Don't hold your beer in front of your chest like a shield. And even with just the small stuff there you've already set yourself apart. The rest of the stuff followed from there (if you'd like me to teach you more please buy my E-Book on Amazon for $10.99).
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Could you get Luster laid?
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But anyway obviously my own experience is anecdotal. You also have cases of guys who study the material and don't succeed and the only thing they take from it are that women are all evil. I am not saying it's great. I am not saying it's perfect.

What I am saying is that it does work, and if you want guys to avoid it you need to present a better alternative.
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Lopen posted...

The alternative is pretty obviously "they stay depressed longer and are at a greater risk of killing themselves due to staying depressed longer"

Which I mean, if those are the dice you wanna roll, then sure. I feel like most men who are reading up on PUA stuff are probably in a bad place or heading to a bad place, though (I see no reason you'd read into it except out of desperation), so I'm inclined to agree it probably has more benefits than drawbacks at a glance.

I think the only non-douche argument here is PUA causes more women to be depressed than it helps men not be depressed. And I'm not even sure you're making that one.

i'd like to see some evidence that tons of depressed men on the verge of killing themselves were saved by PUA before i actually believe this. like, right now we have one anecdote - extha - and extha never even said he was seriously considering committing suicide before being "saved." perhaps if this evidence exists i'll reconsider my feelings on the movement, but even then i think it's pretty disgusting that the argument in defense of PUA is apparently "women should accept that men act like assholes to them because otherwise they'll commit suicide."
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hm. that ground up explanation makes me think the biggest problem is that PUA are mostly known for negging more than anything else. second would probably be things like purposefully leading her own or delaying responses. basically the aspects of you pretending you're better than you are or you bringing her down to think you're better.

(and yes, i'm aware that women also lead guys on too, i don't like that either. so i can't fault that either way but still don't like it.)

but the aspects of self improvement or learning self restraint, i think that's commendable.
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MenuWars posted...

Could you get Luster laid?

Perhaps he should buy my E-Book on Amazon for $10.99 to see if my teachings work for him!
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ShillThaNemesis
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

"women should accept that men act like assholes to them because otherwise they'll commit suicide."

women should accept that men act like assholes to them because it WORKS.

The dating game is like this, women set the rules and men react to them.

If the best way to seduce women was to post up at the bar rocking a dad bod and fedora you can bet the modern PUA game would be tailored to that.
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Honestly dressing well, eating right, lifting weights. These are all good things for everyone and could be the bigger thing helping guys out more than "playing the game" or whatever.

Self-acceptance isn't always the right answer. Sometimes you're depressed for reasons that aren't purely mental-- if PUA dangles a carrot in front of guys that tricks them into good methods of self improvement under the presentation of "do this to get laid," then it sounds like potentially a positive thing to me.
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I think that's the worst thing about PUA that rarely gets addressed, it just views women as a commodity and when a commodity doesn't do what you want it to do, you think it's shit. You've just acknowledged as much.

None of that is particularly helpful. Because then people that get sexual success based on it still aren't going to be capable of dealing with any potential ramifications afterwards. Maybe that's why domestic abuse is such a problem and why it's way more prevalent in relationships involving women. I digressed, but that's an odd thought there.
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Lopen posted...

Self-acceptance isn't always the right answer. Sometimes you're depressed for reasons that aren't purely mental-- if PUA dangles a carrot in front of guys that tricks them into good methods of self improvement under the presentation of "do this to get laid," then it sounds like potentially a positive thing to me.

Honestly this sounds kind of like what happened with me.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

MenuWars posted...

Could you get Luster laid?

Perhaps he should buy my E-Book on Amazon for $10.99 to see if my teachings work for him!

@LusterSoldier
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did you really write a book ExTha

also yeah my understanding of PUA is that it's essentially just self help books disgused cleverly to pander to guys with self image issues and/or issues with women
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MariaTaylor posted...

did you really write a book ExTha

oh god no I'm not that productive I was just trying to be funny.

...


would you guys buy it if I did? I'd give you all discounts!
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Wanglicious posted...

leaving it to just a better chance of a relationship i think is dumbing it down. it's not just getting a girl, it's also the more widespread opinion of success. take wolves, lions, gorillas, etc as examples: the wolf leader isn't just the one who gets the girl, he's the one in control of a pack. the rest of them respect or fear him, he is of a higher status. that's why he gets the girl, that's why they follow him. being a "good man" is a similar thing; it's not just a better chance of a relationship, it's also having that elevated status above peers.

Lonliness is a massive cause of death for male gorillas fwiw. Maybe in wolfpacks its not quite the same, but with the exception of Bonobos most ape species seem to have a few males in charge of the large family unit. But i agree with just about everything youve said in your posts so ya..
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oh god, that makes PUA stuff sound like it's self-help boner pills.
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I would absolutely love to own a book entitled "ExThaRKO's: The world of dating"
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didn't know that about gorillas. could definitely be another factor in why suicide's the second leading cause of death in men from... i think 14-35. third from 35-60? something around that age anyway.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

would you guys buy it if I did? I'd give you all discounts!

I generally like to support board 8 users who produce/make/create things but I don't think I could force myself to buy a 10+ dollar book that I don't plan on reading.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

women should accept that men act like assholes to them because it WORKS.

The dating game is like this, women set the rules and men react to them.

If the best way to seduce women was to post up at the bar rocking a dad bod and fedora you can bet the modern PUA game would be tailored to that.

yeah, obviously then we get to the point of "do you think the majority of women actually appreciate PUA stuff like negging?" i don't and you do. there's nowhere we can really go from here - i often reached this stalemate with realo back in the alpha/beta days too.
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MariaTaylor posted...

I generally like to support board 8 users who produce/make/create things but I don't think I could force myself to buy a 10+ dollar book that I don't plan on reading.

oh god I'd charge like $2.99 at best.

Mr Lasastryke posted...

yeah, obviously then we get to the point of "do you think the majority of women actually appreciate PUA stuff like negging?" i don't and you do. there's nowhere we can really go from here - i often reached this stalemate with realo back in the alpha/beta days too.

This isn't just agree to disagree though. You haven't presented anything to counter my point.

If negging didn't work, it would disappear as a part of the large scale mating strategy that straight men employ. Again, all male dating strategy is reacting to the market, basically.
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Lopen posted...

Honestly dressing well, eating right, lifting weights. These are all good things for everyone and could be the bigger thing helping guys out more than "playing the game" or whatever.

Self-acceptance isn't always the right answer. Sometimes you're depressed for reasons that aren't purely mental-- if PUA dangles a carrot in front of guys that tricks them into good methods of self improvement under the presentation of "do this to get laid," then it sounds like potentially a positive thing to me.

not when PUA also comes with stuff i disapprove of (the "acting like an asshole" stuff).

like, yoblazer's "here's my tips for getting laid" topic also mentioned dressing well and lifting weights. that stuff is perfectly fine (obviously), but it's also not specific to PUA at all.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

If negging didn't work,

i'm not saying it never works.

you're saying "it's the only thing that works and therefore depressed men HAVE to do it because otherwise they will stay depressed and possibly commit suicide." my counterarguments to this are: 1) perhaps these men could cure their depression by doing something else than obsessively following heartiste's tips - seeing a therapist, for instance. 2) these men don't HAVE to resort to PUA tactics like negging. treating women nicely but still following yoblazer's tips (dressing well, working out) works too - sometimes.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

If negging didn't work,

i'm not saying it never works.

you're saying "it's the only thing that works and therefore depressed men HAVE to do it because otherwise they will stay depressed and possibly commit suicide." my counterarguments to this are: 1) perhaps these men could cure their depression by doing something else than obsessively following heartiste's tips - seeing a therapist, for instance. 2) these men don't HAVE to resort to PUA tactics like negging. treating women nicely but still following yoblazer's tips (dressing well, working out) works too - sometimes.

Undeniably true.
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and yeah, i still question if PUA really works that well for "curing depression" - i've had personal experience with people suffering from depression so i know how serious it is. if men are immediately cured with the instant gratification of sex, i have to wonder how "depressed" they were in the first place.
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The fuck is a PUA?

Whatever it is I'm pretty sure it's the next Paramour Twitter Boobs for us because holy shit.
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Oh... oh you sweet summer child.
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Oh, Pick-Up Artist?

Why not just say douchebag? Means the same thing and I don't have to read every post in Al Pacino's voice.
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LapisLazuli posted...

The fuck is a PUA?

Whatever it is I'm pretty sure it's the next Paramour Twitter Boobs for us because holy shit.

it was more like the Trump for us before there was Trump
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LapisLazuli posted...

The fuck is a PUA?

were you not around for the alpha/beta debates?

i wish i was you.
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Why wouldn't you want to read every post in Al Pacino's voice?
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

The fuck is a PUA?

were you not around for the alpha/beta debates?

i wish i was you.

No, I had Ulti blocked through all of that originally.

Yeah, douchebags are awful human beings, not surprised to see who's advocating them.
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MenuWars posted...

Why wouldn't you want to read every post in Al Pacino's voice?

Because it gets tiring and eventually morphs into John Goodman.
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LapisLazuli posted...

No, I had Ulti blocked through all of that originally.

realo was more active in those than ulti, actually!
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

LapisLazuli posted...

No, I had Ulti blocked through all of that originally.

realo was more active in those than ulti, actually!

I've forgotton who that even is.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

What I am saying is that it does work, and if you want guys to avoid it you need to present a better alternative.

Honestly not caring about sex is much more fulfilling
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ExThaNemesis posted...

For a lot of guys their depression is intrinsically tied to the fact that they feel totally invisible to women.

I'm really not kidding when I say that either.

If you are letting other people define your self worth, you are doing it wrong.
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