Board 8 > This is how political correctness dies

(+) Yeah! (+)

foolm0r0n posted...

MenuWars posted...

the only reason that PUA bullshit is successful is based on that principal though... and as much as I hate to admit it, it is successful because there's no fucking way those pricks get away with that if it isn't.

It's a numbers game.

If I flip a weighted coin that has a 1% chance of heads 1000000 times, I can show you 10000 examples of when I was successful and convince you my coin is the best way to get head(s)

That's not how the PUA crap works though, it works by elevating your own standing by down playing that of the target to make them more likely to feel attracted to you to uplift their own status. It's a bit like stockholm syndrome with sex and I think it's fucking gross.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Metal_DK posted...

its noticed across all sexually dimorphic species, and across every culture throughout our own species' history.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Which does not imply causation. Every kind of animal establishes its own society, same as humanity. This doesn't make their decisions biologically rooted.

But our biology is generally intent on reproduction and the furthering of the species and so it stands to reason if all these species are displaying similar reproductive behaviour that it's a biologically founded social construct.

There's nothing to say we can't evolve past that or ration that it's defunct, but it seems counter productive to assume it isn't biological when there's zero evidence to express that theory.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Which does not imply causation. Every kind of animal establishes its own society, same as humanity. This doesn't make their decisions biologically rooted.

so you're going to ignore a consistent, observable pattern of behavior that's massively widespread instead?



KanzarisKelshen posted...

A) Western social biases say women are subservient, at the moment.

...no. it does not.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

B) Parity increasing with limitations on success is demonstrably false. Source: Free market in action.

...dude, it's the free market that's proven it.
countries with bigger markets that offer more opportunities result in parity drop. countries with smaller markets or those that offer fewer opportunities result in parity increasing.

it's straight up an inverse relationship. you have more choice, you go into the fields you like. most women prefer certain fields, most men prefer certain different fields, that's... basically it. when choice is available everyone goes into what they prefer, that's how it works in everything, not just employment. take entertainment - some movies work more towards women, others work more towards men. same thing with video games. same thing with music. same thing with books.

but parity was far, far lower when we had fewer choices. when there was little choice, more people would see/play/read/listen to the same things, just as when there's fewer choices to have a comfortable life more people will be in the same field. as it got bigger/as job opportunities grew bigger, people get to pick what they want and "parity" fades away in favor of "happiness" and "free will." this is shown everywhere. free market does not favor parity.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

You should question things more thoroughly.

throwing this one back at you because your insistence of parity undermines both free will and happiness, yet you aren't questioning that at all.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Metal_DK posted...

its noticed across all sexually dimorphic species, and across every culture throughout our own species' history.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Which does not imply causation. Every kind of animal establishes its own society, same as humanity. This doesn't make their decisions biologically rooted.

Again, fair enough. i will say eventually you have enough evidence that correlation =/= causation kinda becomes a catchphrase and nothing more.

In fact, the original reason why that phrase became so popular is because statisticians could find r^2 correlations between say...ice cream sales in China and the win/loss record of the Denver Nuggets and then say "to win more games we need to get an ice cream sales division in China!". Which is obviously BS.

Something like this the correlation holds WAY more weight though
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MenuWars posted...

foolm0r0n posted...

MenuWars posted...

the only reason that PUA bullshit is successful is based on that principal though... and as much as I hate to admit it, it is successful because there's no fucking way those pricks get away with that if it isn't.

It's a numbers game.

If I flip a weighted coin that has a 1% chance of heads 1000000 times, I can show you 10000 examples of when I was successful and convince you my coin is the best way to get head(s)

That's not how the PUA crap works though, it works by elevating your own standing by down playing that of the target to make them more likely to feel attracted to you to uplift their own status. It's a bit like stockholm syndrome with sex and I think it's fucking gross.

Sure, but if they try it on literally every woman they approach they only need one to respond to it the way they want to consider it a success that night, even if it failed on 50 women earlier that night.
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MenuWars posted...

There's nothing to say we can't evolve past that or ration that it's defunct, but it seems counter productive to assume it isn't biological when there's zero evidence to express that theory.

i'm not assuming anything.
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MenuWars posted...

That's not how the PUA crap works

It doesn't work is my point. They convince you it works with limited anecdotes that they get through the numbers game.

If you look at all the hundreds of different PUA styles and fool-proof techniques and everything, there's only one constant: the numbers game. That just makes sense. Everything else is just sweet, often misogyny-flavored candy to convince you to actually go out and participate in the numbers game.
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PUAs are fucking idiots trying to make you buy their "strategies". Its stupid and just preying on mens' insecurities. This is nothing new. It also saw a massive rise around the Casual Revolution of 2007, because social media put everything into a crazy tornado.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=pua
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foolm0r0n posted...

MenuWars posted...

That's not how the PUA crap works

It doesn't work is my point. They convince you it works with limited anecdotes that they get through the numbers game.

If you look at all the hundreds of different PUA styles and fool-proof techniques and everything, there's only one constant: the numbers game. That just makes sense. Everything else is just sweet, often misogyny-flavored candy to convince you to actually go out and participate in the numbers game.

Hmmmm I'd like to believe this is indeed the case, but if you're boiling it down to simple numbers then being an asshole should lessen your chances rather than increase it and it clearly doesn't work this way. Or they pay off loads of people to present it in such a fashion and it's just a big scam, which wouldn't be all that surprising, but I've seen negging work in real life so I'm not so sure.

Numbers game definitely works provided you're not completely socially inept though (Which I'd actually argue PUA's are in the cases I'm talking about) so their successes are... surprising if you don't account for the status upheaval thing.
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So just wondering if PUA doesn't work and it's all silly numbers game nonsense then how are there so many successful ones with loads of money.

Surely someone would've caught on to the scam by now, right?

Or are you, the denizens of board 8, truly that far ahead of the curve on these issues.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

MenuWars posted...

There's nothing to say we can't evolve past that or ration that it's defunct, but it seems counter productive to assume it isn't biological when there's zero evidence to express that theory.

i'm not assuming anything.

So you're just arguing it's possible that it isn't biological? Sure. Just like it's possible God exists. (Hyperbole)
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MenuWars posted...

but if you're boiling it down to simple numbers then being an asshole should lessen your chances rather than increase it and it clearly doesn't work this way.

Did you miss my example about the coin? How is it so clear that it increases your chances? 1% works, that's a fact. But it's a bad strategy... UNLESS your other strategy is 0%.
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I haven't kept up with anything PUA related since I met my wife 5 years ago. I can understand not wanting to believe in it because it's pretty disturbing like Menu said. But at it's core I think there's quite a bit of truth to the alpha/beta stuff, and how women are attracted to perceived higher levels of status. I just feel lucky that I found a confident woman who is not attracted to assholes, but then again I'm sure PUAs would tell me she's banging other men.
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ya'll should collab on a Nice Guy Dating Guide™ that avoids the numbers game and teaches you how to seduce women using the power of respect only.

i'd buy a signed copy :)
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ExThaNemesis posted...

So just wondering if PUA doesn't work and it's all silly numbers game nonsense then how are there so many successful ones with loads of money.

What does money have anything to do with it? The women they sleep with pay them for the honor or something?

Or are you talking about their book sales? Oh yeah, if you want to sell books to desperate people, PUA is a very good way to go. You could also try crystal therapy, or mind reading. Homeopathic medicine might be the best because you can actually sell people a subscription to dried grass from your backyard or some bullshit in addition to your book.
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foolm0r0n posted...

MenuWars posted...

but if you're boiling it down to simple numbers then being an asshole should lessen your chances rather than increase it and it clearly doesn't work this way.

Did you miss my example about the coin? How is it so clear that it increases your chances? 1% works, that's a fact. But it's a bad strategy... UNLESS your other strategy is 0%.

No I get it, but where are these guys getting their money and success from if they're paying to stage all this apparent success constantly?

Of course it's a scam to a certain degree and the numbers game is indeed part of it. But I've seen guys pick up women with negging, and they weren't just going to everyone doing it, some were former friends that had consistent success.
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Imagine if you thought that book sales defined truth and reality. That would be like thinking Trump is a good businessman just because he..... oh
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Jakyl25 posted...

They don't get the sexy mainstream coverage, but this does happen.

<_<; the same way CNN recently ran an article on the increase of female suicide rates while ignoring that male suicide rates are 3-4x higher and increased too, i imagine.


but if you want to end that stigma, unfortunately you've got a lot of factors and i'm not sure there's a good answer. people do tend to like female nurses more and feel they're more nurturing than men; women do typically perform better with small children. there may be a drop from the crazy 90% range they sit in but those fields are always going to be heavily female dominant. just as a lot of the high risk jobs or physical labor will be dominated by men.

Jakyl25 posted...

I never got an answer as to how these hires have hurt Google's business

that's one aspect i think he got wrong, partially because i'm not sure he even bothered to check demographic data much for google, facebook, etc. generally speaking most industries focus on pushing the increase of opportunity, such as promoting themselves in minority colleges or in female heavy areas. when it comes to hiring it comes down to dollars, ability, and purpose. i mean don't get it wrong, women are still significantly more preferred hires than men in tech (glorified quotas to be frank) but a good company won't lower their standards. if both pass and both are good candidates, they'll just take the one that they need the most, even if that need is entirely for optics. they're still fully qualified though so it's not really a major problem. his premise is that we should be doing it based fully on merit but that's already the case for any major position. for smaller ones it may include more factors but it's usually going to be fine.


google's just not a good company for what he's talking about. different places have tried to adopt the more "diversity quota" type of shit he seems to be inferring, those tend to fail soon after.
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I can't say what Foolmo's saying is incorrect because it's not something I practice, but having bore witness to its successes, and just seen who tends to get laid on a night out and who doesn't there's definitely something to it. No matter how gross it makes you feel.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Imagine if you thought that book sales defined truth and reality. That would be like thinking Trump is a good businessman just because he..... oh

Bahahaha. Alright well played. Well played.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Imagine if you thought that book sales defined truth and reality. That would be like thinking Trump is a good businessman just because he..... oh

I don't think book sales define anything. I just know that a scam that large scale would've been blown up in its early stages.

Anyone who's spent any time actually out to bars/clubs/campuses talking to women knows the stuff works so I'm not surprised you think it's 100% a scam foolmo.
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Wanglicious posted...

that's one aspect i think he got wrong, partially because i'm not sure he even bothered to check demographic data much for google, facebook, etc. generally speaking most industries focus on pushing the increase of opportunity, such as promoting themselves in minority colleges or in female heavy areas. when it comes to hiring it comes down to dollars, ability, and purpose. i mean don't get it wrong, women are still significantly more preferred hires than men in tech (glorified quotas to be frank) but a good company won't lower their standards. if both pass and both are good candidates, they'll just take the one that they need the most, even if that need is entirely for optics. they're still fully qualified though so it's not really a major problem. his premise is that we should be doing it based fully on merit but that's already the case for any major position. for smaller ones it may include more factors but it's usually going to be fine.

I agree with this. I dont think it has hurt their business much if at all. It might of helped it as well tbh.

Still doesnt take away from the fact that men go where the money is because it gives them a better chance to get a relationship
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MenuWars posted...

No I get it, but where are these guys getting their money and success from if they're paying to stage all this apparent success constantly?

Of course it's a scam to a certain degree and the numbers game is indeed part of it. But I've seen guys pick up women with negging, and they weren't just going to everyone doing it, some were former friends that had consistent success.

They're not staging things... if you ask 100 girls in a night and 1 is successful, then that's all you need to seem successful.

And of course negging works. Probably 10% as well as a better strategy, but that just means you have to approach 10x more women and you're even.

Like do you understand how big a leap it is from "I've seen it work on MORE THAN ONE OCCASION!!!" to "it IMPROVES your chances"?
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ExThaNemesis posted...

foolm0r0n posted...

Imagine if you thought that book sales defined truth and reality. That would be like thinking Trump is a good businessman just because he..... oh

I don't think book sales define anything. I just know that a scam that large scale would've been blown up in its early stages.

Anyone who's spent any time actually out to bars/clubs/campuses talking to women knows the stuff works so I'm not surprised you think it's 100% a scam foolmo.

I'd just like to remind everyone here that these guys go drinking together on occasion.
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foolm0r0n posted...

MenuWars posted...

No I get it, but where are these guys getting their money and success from if they're paying to stage all this apparent success constantly?

Of course it's a scam to a certain degree and the numbers game is indeed part of it. But I've seen guys pick up women with negging, and they weren't just going to everyone doing it, some were former friends that had consistent success.

They're not staging things... if you ask 100 girls in a night and 1 is successful, then that's all you need to seem successful.

And of course negging works. Probably 10% as well as a better strategy, but that just means you have to approach 10x more women and you're even.

Like do you understand how big a leap it is from "I've seen it work on MORE THAN ONE OCCASION!!!" to "it IMPROVES your chances"?

Of course but that doesn't disprove it either. Which is what you're trying to insinuate.
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But yeah at best on our side we have anecdotal evidence and the large scale success of companies like Real Social Dynamics and other PUAs like Roosh V.

On their side, they have... well, they just know that women aren't like that.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

I don't think book sales define anything. I just know that a scam that large scale would've been blown up in its early stages.

Anyone who's spent any time actually out to bars/clubs/campuses talking to women knows the stuff works so I'm not surprised you think it's 100% a scam foolmo.

You're the one who's crying that it's a scam. ctrl+f this page for scam and point to where I said it was.

It's not a scam at all. PUAs are selling confidence for losers who hate women to go out and play the numbers game. It completely works. That is not a scam at all.

If you were a loser who thought you were buying some secret technique to get women, then I can see why YOU would think it's a scam and be super insecure and defensive about it. But that's really your fault... I wouldn't really blame the savvy businessman for that. (I would blame them for perpetuating misogyny and such but that's a separate issue.)

The numbers game is NOT a scam. It is all that matters. This is what I have been saying from the beginning.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

But yeah at best on our side we have anecdotal evidence and the large scale success of companies like Real Social Dynamics and other PUAs like Roosh V.

On their side, they have... well, they just know that women aren't like that.

Siding with Extha about the success of PUAs... I'm gonna go feel bad about myself for awhile.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

I don't think book sales define anything

ExThaNemesis posted...

But yeah at best on our side we have anecdotal evidence and the large scale success of companies like Real Social Dynamics and other PUAs like Roosh V.

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Anyway y'all can turn your noses up completely at PUA and call them sick misogynists or whatever but I'm sure there's a non negligible number of "desperate guys" who were completely depressed to the point of suicide that got into the stuff and learned how to be confident enough to get girls (or a girl)

so I like to focus on the positives.
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foolm0r0n posted...

The numbers game is NOT a scam. It is all that matters. This is what I have been saying from the beginning.

I'm telling you it's not just a numbers game though. There are ways to tilt the numbers game massively in your favor to take it from 1 in 100 down to 1 in 10 down to 1 in 5 if you get good enough.
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Well yeah, but that positive involves turning a sad guy into a guy that says and does hateful things that harms peoples confidence and bring them also to a low point theoretically speaking, so it's like watering down the depression by making other people suck on it. No pun intended.

You know that's a shit thing.
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MenuWars posted...

Just like it's possible God exists. (Hyperbole)

sure. even richard dawkins admits that we can't rule out the possibility that god exists.

perhaps i'm being too nuanced for this discussion but i just like nuance.
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If that happens, then yeah it sucks you turned a negative into a negative.

There are stories of guys who were probably months from hanging themselves who used the stuff to find a wife. It saved their life.

Net positive.
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And if you're lamenting the fact that PUAs creates a situation where girls go out and get "tricked" into being pumped and dumped like... cry me a river.

Men don't owe you commitment the same way women don't owe you sex.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

MenuWars posted...

Just like it's possible God exists. (Hyperbole)

sure. even richard dawkins admits that we can't rule out the possibility that god exists.

perhaps i'm being too nuanced for this discussion but i just like nuance.

Indeed. Devil's advocate isn't always that helpful though when executed argumentatively though.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

I'm telling you it's not just a numbers game though. There are ways to tilt the numbers game massively in your favor to take it from 1 in 100 down to 1 in 10 down to 1 in 5 if you get good enough.

Definitely. That's not what PUAs sell mostly though. Gotta keep your customers on the hook!

ExThaNemesis posted...

but I'm sure there's a non negligible number of "desperate guys" who were completely depressed to the point of suicide that got into the stuff and learned how to be confident enough to get girls (or a girl)

That's 100% true. So stick to that stuff instead of feverishly trying to defend everything about PUAs for no reason.
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foolm0r0n posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

I don't think book sales define anything

ExThaNemesis posted...

But yeah at best on our side we have anecdotal evidence and the large scale success of companies like Real Social Dynamics and other PUAs like Roosh V.

debate over
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What are you two gonna name your first child?
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Where was I trying to defend everything? The whole reason I mostly checked out of this fight is coz I recognized the amount of anger and hate it creates.

I just wanted to point out that there's a really large part of what PUAs teach that works, and it's much more than just telling dudes to dive into a numbers game.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Anyway y'all can turn your noses up completely at PUA and call them sick misogynists or whatever but I'm sure there's a non negligible number of "desperate guys" who were completely depressed to the point of suicide that got into the stuff and learned how to be confident enough to get girls (or a girl)

so I like to focus on the positives.

yeah, it's such a positive that desparate guys act like assholes to girls to get them to fuck them.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

debate over

ok so I was poking fun at my own side. I even said "all we have is anecdotal evidence and some successful PUAs"


are you going to address what I said about your side at all or just go "LMAO DRAGGGGED, GET REKT"

Like do you guys have anything other than "Well, we just KNOW women aren't like that."
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MenuWars posted...

Devil's advocate isn't always that helpful though when executed argumentatively though.

it wasn't DA though. all i was saying was "there's a possibility that it's not biological." i wasn't being disingenuous when i was saying that.
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Awwww god I love you guys.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

yeah, it's such a positive that desparate guys act like assholes to girls to get them to fuck them.

Yeah I know you don't give a single fuck about the plight of the average depressed straight guy. That's pretty clear. All I need to do is bring up the suicide gap and you'll peace the fuck out of that discussion pronto.
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Like just listen to Lasa for a second.

"Depressed guys used PUA stuff to give themselves confidence enough to turn things around but I would rather they stay depressed and kill themselves."



I'm the bad guy tho
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Getting women, making friends, maintaining good relationships with co-workers and family, I think these are all subsets of the same set of skills.

So my only cents is that PUA stuff is just a limited form of how to be socially effective. It's fine, just I think it's more profound and helpful to look at the bigger picture of how to get people to like you.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Like do you guys have anything other than "Well, we just KNOW women aren't like that."

that's not my argument. the furthest i've gone in this topic is "not all women are like that."
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ExThaNemesis posted...

"Depressed guys used PUA stuff to give themselves confidence enough to turn things around but I would rather they stay depressed and kill themselves."

literally implying PUA stuff was the only way for them to get out of their depression.
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it's like when I said PUA the bat signal went out. I didn't even mean for this to happen, I trolled myself. Fuck.
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