Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 118: China Don't Care

(+) Yeah! (+)

It seems like the most important thing to me. The point of conducting diplomacy is to get stuff you want from the other country, right?

What he says, literally, is insignificant compared to what is understood by the other side. Normally I would say that is the only thing that matters, but I understand Trump believes in nonstop campaign so he may have also wanted people at home to understand some message.

But as far as what I was posting earlier, it was assuming that only the diplomatic relations mattered for the purposes of the conversation.
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Jakyl25 posted...

But he is a fool

There really isn't any documented evidence to the contrary

I agree with him being a fool, but I've been trying to wrap my head around the idea that Roger Stone has thought for nearly thirty years that Donald Trump is the closest person to a genius we have and that he could one day be President. There's that in his favor, and I'm gonna watch Get Me Roger Stone soon to see why on earth this extreme opposite of an opinion ever existed.
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And as far as China is concerned, I'm very confident that they would consider the fact that he is US President to be very strong evidence that he is not stupid. The Chinese people and leadership will not believe that anyone can get into such high office while actually being as stupid as Trump sounds.

It's like when your opponent lets you capture their queen in chess, and you are in the finals of a major tournament. You are going to assume that he has a plan, and think really hard before taking that queen. Because if he's a really bad player, how did he get to the finals?
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A fool and a genius depends on how often he can be right and get away with being wrong.
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The kicker is reallly that Trump in the 80s or early 90s night have been a half decent president but doddering old hate monger trump in his late 70s is a different worse person than he once was
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But the rest of us, I think, were talking about Trump's own views on China/NK.

And to this, the only thing that really matters is his own statements. You seem to be operating under the idea that Trump has a master plan and interpreting everything under that light. We're saying there's no evidence to this claim. And so we're working with what we have.

Now China (or any other country) is likely preparing for all possibilities but that doesn't mean they're true. In fact, if they knew for sure which one was true they wouldn't have to bother with accounting for the other possibilities! So just because they may be accounting for the possibility that there's some 29D chess going on here doesn't mean that's actually the case. In fact, evidence suggests that is most certainly not the case.

To be more informal, I get the distinct impression you're basically going with a fanfic version of Trump and this administration and basing your conversations off of that, presumably because you feel like it's a more interesting conversation. Everyone else is frustrated because there's no evidence to support that that fanfic has any basis in reality and there's no desire to discuss a fanfic over what appears to be real life.
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red sox 777 posted...

But you aren't the president of the United States, you don't have a huge team of people researching and briefing you before an important meeting like this one.

The sad part is that the current president of the united states doesn't use any of the information available to him, and instead consistently shouts knee-jerk bullshit that is provably, undeniably untrue

i used to give the benefit of the doubt, but after so many objectively false statements it is difficult to believe
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banananor posted...

red sox 777 posted...

But you aren't the president of the United States, you don't have a huge team of people researching and briefing you before an important meeting like this one.

The sad part is that the current president of the united states doesn't use any of the information available to him, and instead consistently shouts knee-jerk bullshit that is provably, undeniably untrue

i used to give the benefit of the doubt, but after so many objectively false statements it is difficult to believe

Trump doesn't attend his briefings and can apparently only be assed to read his briefing memos if they are a single page long or have graphs and pictures according to leaks.
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Eddv posted...

The kicker is reallly that Trump in the 80s or early 90s night have been a half decent president but doddering old hate monger trump in his late 70s is a different worse person than he once was

I think he recently turned 71, but your point's taken.
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To be clear, I don't believe anything Donald Trump says at face value, and I'm not confident that I know what he means. I see the whole game of looking at what he says to be a fruitless endeavour. Everything he says could be a lie. Or, he could tell the truth sometimes, to make it less predictable. His statements have close to zero truth value.

And, yeah, I think Democrats look bad when they try to hold him to his words 2 years after everyone, including Democrats, figured this out.
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red sox 777 posted...

But you aren't the president of the United States, you don't have a huge team of people researching and briefing you before an important meeting like this one.

Trump has spent his administration gutting the State Department and other federal bureaucracies. Exactly who do you think is making up this "huge team of people"?
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red sox 777 posted...

To be clear, I don't believe anything Donald Trump says at face value, and I'm not confident that I know what he means. I see the whole game of looking at what he says to be a fruitless endeavour. Everything he says could be a lie. Or, he could tell the truth sometimes, to make it less predictable. His statements have close to zero truth value.

This is really dumb. You're like the Mexican immigrants who voted for Trump and then were surprised when he turned around and started kicking them out of the country.
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Eddv posted...

banananor posted...

red sox 777 posted...

But you aren't the president of the United States, you don't have a huge team of people researching and briefing you before an important meeting like this one.

The sad part is that the current president of the united states doesn't use any of the information available to him, and instead consistently shouts knee-jerk bullshit that is provably, undeniably untrue

i used to give the benefit of the doubt, but after so many objectively false statements it is difficult to believe

Trump doesn't attend his briefings and can apparently only be assed to read his briefing memos if they are a single page long or have graphs and pictures according to leaks.

There's also the fact that he thinks Putin is more credible than US Intelligence Agencies...
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red sox 777 posted...

And, yeah, I think Democrats look bad when they try to hold him to his words 2 years after everyone, including Democrats, figured this out.

Well, I mean, if we just throw our hands up and say facts and truth and words no longer matter that's just a very depressing and bleak world.

I'm a cynical person so I think that might actually be true, but I certainly can't fault anyone for trying to stand up and try to push back against that encroaching reality.
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Well, I don't think that facts don't matter just because we can't take what people say at face value. I think we are moving into a world where reality consists more of feelings than facts though. But this is normal as far as the world is concerned. This is what China and Russia have been like for ages.

Trump is significantly popular in China I believe, and it's probably because his style of politics makes sense to a Chinese audience. They also find a lot of the American system, like judicial review, to be baffling.
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red sox 777 posted...

I think we are moving into a world where reality consists more of feelings than facts though

I feel 1 + 1 = 5. So I guess 1+1 = 5 from now on.
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red sox 777 posted...

I think we are moving into a world where reality consists more of feelings than facts though.

I agree with you. I just think that's a very depressing and bleak future. I don't see how we turn back from it anymore either.
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pretty sure trump was saying by far the most factually incorrect stuff out of all the candidates during the campaign, and he won. the majority of americans obviously care more about feelings than facts.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

pretty sure trump was saying by far the most factually incorrect stuff out of all the candidates during the campaign, and he won. the majority of americans obviously care more about feelings than facts.

And what do we have to show for it? Cult members jerking off with the 'tears' of noncultists. Perhaps this is a societal issue that is more problematic than just Trump.
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well yeah

I felt that the last chance to maybe put a stop to that shift was if Clinton had won in a complete landslide displaying a complete rejection and repudiation of the idea. But now? Regardless of how this turns out, I assume it's how politics will generally proceed. And that's very much not a good thing, IMO.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

pretty sure trump was saying by far the most factually incorrect stuff out of all the candidates during the campaign, and he won. the majority of americans obviously care more about feelings than facts.

Does it when he lost the popular vote by 3 million? And that we only had 58% vote?
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http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/01/obamas-inner-circle-is-urging-deval-patrick-to-run-215443

This or Kamala Harris would be awesome.

Harris needs to stop with identity politics, because I'd actually like her to be president one day.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Mr Lasastryke posted...

pretty sure trump was saying by far the most factually incorrect stuff out of all the candidates during the campaign, and he won. the majority of americans obviously care more about feelings than facts.

Does it when he lost the popular vote by 3 million? And that we only had 58% vote?

Well, if we get rid of the electoral college and implement nation-wide mail-in voting or extend voting or even just move it to a day other than a workday maybe that helps things a bit.

but lol at any of that happening
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TheRock1525 posted...

Does it when he lost the popular vote by 3 million? And that we only had 58% vote?

those are fair points. the fact that he got as many votes as he did still says a lot about the number of "feelings over facts" americans, though.
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Republicans might be convinced to move voting to Saturday. Because Republicans generally believe that most working people vote Republican.
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red sox 777 posted...

Republicans might be convinced to move voting to Saturday. Because Republicans generally believe that most working people vote Republican.

But also like you said earlier, Republicans are far more existentially determined to vote. Democrats are less committed.

Anything that makes voting easier hurts the GOP
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Wasn't voting on Tuesday because people didn't want to travel on Sunday for religious reasons? Or was that a myth?
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Dancedreamer posted...

Wasn't voting on Tuesday because people didn't want to travel on Sunday for religious reasons? Or was that a myth?

Basically. Sunday was for religion, Monday was a travel day, Tuesday was for voting.

which is completely obsolete in the modern world
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I think it had something to do with market day for farmers. In the 1700s, Saturday was a workday like the others, and Sunday was obviously out of the question for voting.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Does it when he lost the popular vote by 3 million? And that we only had 58% vote?

those are fair points. the fact that he got as many votes as he did still says a lot about the number of "feelings over facts" americans, though.

It's why I think everyone takes way too much out of the Trump presidency. We had two record low popularity candidates going at it and someone had to win. People at the last minute leaned into something radically different instead of the status quo, and even then it was by the slimmest of margins.

It's why Trump is doing so poorly in polling, even among historically conservative polls like Rasmussen. This was a president that a small, vocal minority desperate wanted, and enough independents/reluctant Republicans voted for because of things like the Supreme Court and Obamacare. And that support has quickly eroded.

You see, the working man that felt he was left behind that gave Trump tepid support isn't seeing the economic boom many predicted with a Republican president. So those votes are back into the undecided category for future elections.
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Dancedreamer posted...

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Can Trump just go out into the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot someone already? Since that's about what it would take to get him impeached.

Congress would just say that he felt his life was in danger.

Only way he's impeached with Conservatives in control is if he performs a 3rd trimester abortion while announcing a gun ban.

Lol awesome comment
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TheRock1525 posted...

We had two record low popularity candidates going at it and someone had to win.

I know this is kind of missing the point, but wasn't Clinton actually polling really well (like - among the most popular politicians well) prior to announcing her candidacy? Say... circa 2011 or so? (Go much further and I assume the GOP had shifted into 2016 preparation mode)
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xp1337 posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

We had two record low popularity candidates going at it and someone had to win.

I know this is kind of missing the point, but wasn't Clinton actually polling really well (like - among the most popular politicians well) prior to announcing her candidacy? Say... circa 2011 or so? (Go much further and I assume the GOP had shifted into 2016 preparation mode)

Theoretical Clinton is always liked better than Clinton on the actual campaign trail.
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And if it's 2011 polling, that's before BENGHAZI and BUTTERY MAILS.
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I know! Everyone has their poll numbers drop once they're actually running compared to not running. Just saying the idea that she was always super unpopular is a myth.

By the time the election rolled around she may have been a Top 2 most unpopular major candidate but it's not like she went in like that.
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Maybe being Secretary of State became Clinton's undoing.
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I am pretty convinced if 100% voting was compulsory and could be possible that republicans would never lose a presidential election ever.
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charmander6000 posted...

Maybe being Secretary of State became Clinton's undoing.

She was actually a fairly competent SoS, but the Republicans really did a great job ramming Benghazi down everyone's throat.
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Yeah Clinton was really well-liked as SoS (at least before the Benghazi bullshit). Can't find numbers at the moment, but I'm fairly certain she was still above 50% before the campaign.
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https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/892218999664234496

God dammit Hannity PLEASE
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I also think that Donald Trump dragged the entire country into the gutter during the campaign. Had it been Clinton vs Jeb! I'd guess Clinton would have had at least mid 40s approval by the end of the campaign instead of the second lowest in modern history.
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Corrik posted...

I am pretty convinced if 100% voting was compulsory and could be possible that republicans would never lose a presidential election ever.

What makes you say that?

What do you think they'd consistently win that they don't as of now?
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Corrik posted...

I am pretty convinced if 100% voting was compulsory and could be possible that republicans would never lose a presidential election ever.

Please convince your fellow republicans of this.
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Speaking of record low approval ratings https://mobile.twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/892485336990982144
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik posted...

I am pretty convinced if 100% voting was compulsory and could be possible that republicans would never lose a presidential election ever.

What makes you say that?

What do you think they'd consistently win that they don't as of now?

As a guess, the fact that the Electoral College disproportionately favors small states and that the GOP is currently the party of small states.
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Right but that still doesn't get them to 270

I want to know where in the purple/blue States are ideological conservatives actually the majority but choose not to vote?
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Red states have more children right? Representation in the House and EC goes by total population, not vote-eligible population. Part of our great constitutional compromise.
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But it still doesn't help Corrik's case for compulsory voting.
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Compulsory voting is a bad idea

Make it easy at possible to vote, but if someone really doesn't want to that's their decision.
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Chris Wray confirmed for fbi director.
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