Current Events > What's wrong with hitting kids and pets as a form of discipline?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Physical discipline = "I don't actually want to solve this problem, I just want it to stop."

It's shitty behavior by shitty people who should never have been given the responsibility of raising a child or pet.
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ClockworkHare posted...

There's cases where it's effective. But there's far more cases where it just warped the recipient through abuse. Parents who exercise physical discipline on their kids don't always use discretionary finesse. A lot of them go full swing on the kid out of anger and eventually escalate from a light slap on the hand to a backhand to the face. This creates an outlet for an adult to excuse beating a child as a means of releasing frustration over having to be a parent.

And who's the party who made decisions that led to a frustrating kid existing in the first place...? Who really fucked up there? The kid? No...kids don't get to choose being born. A parent getting into the habit of smacking around a little kid for misbehaving is really just punishing the kid for the parent doing a shitty job.

That's not healthy for the kid's long term development.

It may have "worked" for grandpa and grandma back in the day, but times have changed many things since then. And we're also finding now that a lot of those "success" stories are really just victims repressing exactly how extreme some of the punishments they received actually were. Some of these people only overcame the trauma of the harsh punishments they experienced because they physically grew up...not because the victims accepted the punishments as justified.

spanking should never turn into outright punching or slapping

LinksLiege posted...

Physical discipline = "I don't actually want to solve this problem, I just want it to stop."

It's shitty behavior by shitty people who should never have been given the responsibility of raising a child or pet.

Um, stopping a behavior in a lot of cases IS solving the problem.

I get the feeling that most of you who are against spanking picture it as the parent whacking the kid without saying a word as to why. Derp.
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Transcendentia posted...

ClockworkHare posted...

There's cases where it's effective. But there's far more cases where it just warped the recipient through abuse. Parents who exercise physical discipline on their kids don't always use discretionary finesse. A lot of them go full swing on the kid out of anger and eventually escalate from a light slap on the hand to a backhand to the face. This creates an outlet for an adult to excuse beating a child as a means of releasing frustration over having to be a parent.

And who's the party who made decisions that led to a frustrating kid existing in the first place...? Who really fucked up there? The kid? No...kids don't get to choose being born. A parent getting into the habit of smacking around a little kid for misbehaving is really just punishing the kid for the parent doing a shitty job.

That's not healthy for the kid's long term development.

It may have "worked" for grandpa and grandma back in the day, but times have changed many things since then. And we're also finding now that a lot of those "success" stories are really just victims repressing exactly how extreme some of the punishments they received actually were. Some of these people only overcame the trauma of the harsh punishments they experienced because they physically grew up...not because the victims accepted the punishments as justified.

spanking should never turn into outright punching or slapping

Try reading it again
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RE_expert44 posted...

What about beating a kid WITH a pet?

Brilliant!

3khc posted...

Um, stopping a behavior in a lot of cases IS solving the problem.

I fear for any children or pets you might have.
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LinksLiege posted...

3khc posted...

Um, stopping a behavior in a lot of cases IS solving the problem.

I fear for any children or pets you might have.

Lol wtf so if my goal is to stop a behavior and I succeed via spanking then you think I failed somehow? Where is your logic.
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Twinmold posted...

Because it doesn't work.

Topic should have ended here. After reading all the scientific studies that show that spanking (even lightly) doesn't actually correct a child's behavior, you're left with a few categories of parents who still do it:

1. My parents hit me and I think I turned out fine, so I'm gonna do it to my kid.
2. I have trouble controlling my anger and when my kid makes me mad I deserve to take out some of my frustration on them.
3. I'm not good with problem solving - if you tell me I can't hit my kid I just can't think of anything else to do.
4. I don't give my kids enough credit for being human. I think they're incapable of reasoning and explanations (at their level) so hitting them is the ONLY thing I think they'll understand.
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Its ok to hit someone as long as it is your child. With everyone else violence solves absolutely nothing.

Seriously, spanking can be good parenting in some circumstances and when it follows an appropriate set of rules, but it can sometimes be tricky. Basically you should never hit a kid with an object, to leave a mark, or when you yourself are angry and/or not in complete control of yourself.

Basically, what Adrian Peterson did is very clearly child abuse and anyone calling it less than that doesn't know what they are talking about. He beat the crap out of his child with a tree branch and left a large number of markings all over the kids legs, buttocks, and scrotum.

When it comes down to it, there are other ways of disciplining a child that operate in less of a grey area than spanking. It should never ever be someone's primary method of disciplining a child.
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Can you sore-butts please stop equating spanking with anger?

Some people are just incapable of responding to any form of discipline in a good way. I'm a good example. For anyone ever trying to punish me for anything, be they a parent or teacher or boss or whatever, best case scenario was they ended up frustrated because I would not show any acknowledgement that I was being punished. Worst case scenario, I'd act out and they'd regret having punished me. I'm just almost impossible to convince I'm strictly in the wrong for anything, though on the other hand, if I would be able to be convinced I was strictly in the wrong for doing something, I wouldn't do it in the first place.

edit: Also, completely agree about the damage of verbal abuse. I did have to deal with a lot of that shit. I had always written it off, but at 34, I'm only starting to now realize the profoundly negative and monumental impact it's had on me, mainly my sociopathic tendencies (which could possibly be illustrated in the above paragraph). Getting beaten to the point of having significant injuries would have been a problem, but surface pain from slapping is trivial. I've held my hand against a cooking pan I had just taken out of a 500 degree oven for 10-15 seconds just to calm myself down. I don't advocate hitting/spanking and I don't feel like it has any value, but I know full well the damage psychological/verbal abuse can do.
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3khc posted...

Lol wtf so if my goal is to stop a behavior and I succeed via spanking then you think I failed somehow?

Your goal should be to correct the behavior and teach the kid how to make better decisions overall. Instead you're just going to have the kid either hide the bad behavior from you and continue doing it (as studies have shown happens more often with spanking), or they'll make equally bad decisions because the message they're receiving from you is "do whatever you want until you get your ass kicked" along with "if someone is frustrating you, just hit them until they do what you want them to do."
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That_Happened posted...

3khc posted...

Lol wtf so if my goal is to stop a behavior and I succeed via spanking then you think I failed somehow?

Your goal should be to correct the behavior and have the kid be smart enough to make better decisions overall. Instead you're just going to have the kid either hide the bad behavior from you and continue doing it (as studies have shown happens more often with spanking), or they'll make equally bad decisions because the message they're receiving from you is "do whatever you want until you get your ass kicked" along with "if someone is frustrating you, just hit them until they do what you want them to do."

Again I will ask if you have any experience, REAL experience raising kids. Cuz I have and the way you talk it's as if you observe and comment on what parents should do without being in their position.
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It's very odd that reinforcing and rewarding good behavior is the better practice for children even though it is not practiced by society in adulthood. It seems like the reasoning becomes lost.

There's a relationship between childhood consequences and adulthood consequences for disobeying rules. (Time outs, grounding, losing privileges, losing allowances (and yes, force in some houses). Jail, fines, prison, probation (and yes, the death penalty in some instances).

There's no such relationship for rewarding good behavior. We don't do it for adults. Nothing "good" happens when you obey the rules as an adult. Yes, you have independence and agency, but that's not a reward, it's a right.

Obviously children and adults have different levels of reasoning and rationality, but it's just an interesting observation.
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3khc posted...

That_Happened posted...

3khc posted...

Lol wtf so if my goal is to stop a behavior and I succeed via spanking then you think I failed somehow?

Your goal should be to correct the behavior and have the kid be smart enough to make better decisions overall. Instead you're just going to have the kid either hide the bad behavior from you and continue doing it (as studies have shown happens more often with spanking), or they'll make equally bad decisions because the message they're receiving from you is "do whatever you want until you get your ass kicked" along with "if someone is frustrating you, just hit them until they do what you want them to do."

Again I will ask if you have any experience, REAL experience raising kids.

I have several cousins, nieces and nephews that I babysat regularly (I'm the oldest of about 12 cousins), but no I don't have any kids of my own.

You'll probably quote my post and cut it off there, ignoring the fact that you're literally going against scientific studies on the matter. Just because you have kids doesn't mean you're infallible as a parent, especially if your mother and father taught you to hit your kids.
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He doesn't have kids either
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ZMythos posted...

It's very odd that reinforcing and rewarding good behavior is the better practice for children even though it is not practiced by society in adulthood. It seems like the reasoning becomes lost.

Agree and that's a shame because the best jobs I've had involved bosses who made sure to reward me when I did well, and who tried to teach me instead of scream at me when mistakes were made. Any job I had where my supervisor teed off on me, I ended up far more afraid to make decisions on my own and pestered them constantly for answers to the simplest questions. But the good bosses were the ones where I felt confident that I would make the correct decision the next time because they took the time to explain their thought processes and goals for me.
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My dad spanked me and he is probably the person I have the best relationship with besides my wife.

I can use personal anecdotes too!
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That_Happened posted...

3khc posted...

That_Happened posted...

3khc posted...

Lol wtf so if my goal is to stop a behavior and I succeed via spanking then you think I failed somehow?

Your goal should be to correct the behavior and have the kid be smart enough to make better decisions overall. Instead you're just going to have the kid either hide the bad behavior from you and continue doing it (as studies have shown happens more often with spanking), or they'll make equally bad decisions because the message they're receiving from you is "do whatever you want until you get your ass kicked" along with "if someone is frustrating you, just hit them until they do what you want them to do."

Again I will ask if you have any experience, REAL experience raising kids.

I have several nieces and nephews, but no I don't have any kids of my own.

You'll probably quote my post and cut it off there, ignoring the fact that you're literally going against scientific studies on the matter. Just because you have kids doesn't mean you're infallible as a parent, especially if your mother and father taught you to hit your kids.

These scientific studies come from surveys on people who wish to speak out. I hope you know how biased that can be. If you go ahead and conduct your own research with people in your area and you'll see what I mean.

And just because a parent spanks their children, doesn't mean that is their go to punishment. It's not

step 1) kid is bad
step 2) hit

U think real parent smack infants that cannot understand reason? No these are kids who can hear you, understand you, and still will act up.
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That_Happened posted...

Twinmold posted...

Because it doesn't work.

Topic should have ended here. After reading all the scientific studies that show that spanking (even lightly) doesn't actually correct a child's behavior, you're left with a few categories of parents who still do it:

1. My parents hit me and I think I turned out fine, so I'm gonna do it to my kid.
2. I have trouble controlling my anger and when my kid makes me mad I deserve to take out some of my frustration on them.
3. I'm not good with problem solving - if you tell me I can't hit my kid I just can't think of anything else to do.
4. I don't give my kids enough credit for being human. I think they're incapable of reasoning and explanations (at their level) so hitting them is the ONLY thing I think they'll understand.

Spot on.
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3khc posted...

These scientific studies come from surveys on people who wish to speak out. I hope you know how biased that can be. If you go ahead and conduct your own research with people in your area and you'll see what I mean.

You clearly haven't read any such studies because this is nonsense. You should feel bad for trying to have a discussion while lying about shit just so you can continue your narrative.
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Schwarber posted...

3khc posted...

These scientific studies come from surveys on people who wish to speak out. I hope you know how biased that can be. If you go ahead and conduct your own research with people in your area and you'll see what I mean.

You clearly haven't read any such studies because this is nonsense. You should feel bad for trying to have a discussion while lying about shit just so you can continue your narrative.

Okay, well then you tell me how the research is conducted. Which method is used to procure data?
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So I actually went and looked up the study and there are a lot of factor unaccounted for. There is absolutely no indication that any other variables are being taken into account. For example:

- Severity of the spanking
- Education of the parents
- Socio-Economic status
- Selection bias (bad behaved kids are prone to be spanked more than well behaved ones)
- Age of parents

Not saying it's wrong but this is just a correlation and the link was also tenuous at best. There might be a reverse effect going on where it simply turns out that people with bad behavior were also badly behaved as kids and therefore spanked. You can't have randomized studies done in this kind of area for obvious reasons...

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kuar2/files/201612/spanking_and_child_outcomes.pdf
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3khc posted...

These scientific studies come from surveys on people who wish to speak out.

Wtf they don't all come from surveys like that. The one major negative thing about the studies (I'll grant you) is that you can't randomly assign kids to parents to check the results. But when there are hundreds of studies that have shown negative effects and only a handful that show any positives, I'll stay on the safe side for the time being.

3khc posted...

U think real parent smack infants that cannot understand reason? No these are kids who can hear you, understand you, and still will act up.

The major problem with this is:
>parent spanks child
>this type of punishment does not work long term
>kid hides behavior or repeats behavior
>parent escalates spanking
>this type of punishment still does not work long term
>kid repeats behavior
>parent escalates spanking
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I've found articles about the studies and the general assumption is that spanking is a frequent form of discipline for the parents. I don't think spanking should ever be frequent. Maybe like a once or twice thing in an entire childhood kind of thing.

If you find your child isn't responsive to logic, reason, etc. and then even a light spanking doesn't snap them out of it, something else is definitely wrong and spanking will indeed most likely make it worse.
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Twinmold posted...

Because it doesn't work.

MutantJohn posted...

I've found articles about the studies and the general assumption is that spanking is a frequent form of discipline for the parents. I don't think spanking should ever be frequent. Maybe like a once or twice thing in an entire childhood kind of thing.

If you find your child isn't responsive to logic, reason, etc. and then even a light spanking doesn't snap them out of it, something else is definitely wrong and spanking will indeed most likely make it worse.

yep

Transcendentia posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/5-decade-study-reveals-fallout-from-spanking-kids/

That is a study specifically about spanking, no harder abuse.

Shitty sample size, trying to pretend correlation = causation...yup, must be a leftist "study"

And what properly sized study do you have to back up spanking working? Wait, you don't need a study because you have personal experience being spanked and "turned out fine". But correlation does not equal causation, right? But wait, real world experience is all the causation you need. Them egghead liberals and their book smarts always trying to determine what things are and how/if they work. You know how life is because you lived one.
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I guess my dad hit me worse than other people here. I usually got the belt if it was around
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Twinmold posted...

Because it doesn't work.

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id spank my kids if they were bad. not full on punching them in the chest but id whack some ass
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ClockworkHare posted...

Outta nowhere!
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LightHawKnight posted...

Twinmold posted...

Because it doesn't work.

This.

Um, false?
In psych you learn that it's absolutely effective, but it will sometimes detract the kid/pet from doing anything, so it works waaaay better to reward for good behavior as well.

This is psych 101 people.
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Lol so many people saying it doesn't work. If you straight up beat up a kid, yeah it isn't going to work. My mom use to spank my brother and I, but whenever we got older, she and my dad then started to ground us because they felt that was more effective. And really, our dad never spanked us, it was my mom that did. Our dad would just ground us, which was worse IMO.
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Humans aren't known for moderation. Give them the option for corporal punishment and a lot of kids are going to get hurt real bad.
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noobody1 posted...

Humans aren't known for moderation. Give them the option for corporal punishment and a lot of kids are going to get hurt real bad.

slippery slope fallacy

kinetika_ posted...

Lol so many people saying it doesn't work.

I know right? Fuckin' scientists and psychologists...what do THEY know? My personal experiences are a far better indicator than 200+ studies on the matter. /s
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That_Happened posted...

kinetika_ posted...

Lol so many people saying it doesn't work.

I know right? Fuckin' scientists and psychologists...what do THEY know? My personal experiences are a far better indicator than 200+ studies on the matter. /s

I mean my mom works at a day care and all these new kids coming in there are the worst behaved kids she's ever dealt with. Back when she first started that job (20 years ago), she never had to deal with the amount of bs she does now because our society wasn't against discipline the way it apparently is now. Could you -- or these amazing scientists -- explain that to me? I don't want to hear "ADHD" -- or equivalent -- as a response, either. There is no way over 60% of that day care consists of "mentally ill" children.
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kinetika_ posted...

Back when she first started that job (20 years ago), she never had to deal with the amount of bs she does now because our society wasn't against discipline the way it apparently is now. Could you -- or these amazing scientists -- explain that to me?

A number of things have changed since 1997, and yet with zero evidence you automatically chalk it up to "people aren't hitting their kids like they used to." News flash though: spanking was already taboo in 1997--there are Bill Engvall and Sinbad comic bits from the early/mid nineties about how they don't think it's wrong to spank children. So it was already a big topic and people were already avoiding spanking their kids 20 years ago when your mom started working that job.

So looks like you may want to find another excuse.
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Sources:

1993 Sinbad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXs3Qy4wy4Q&t=20m00s

1996 Bill Engvall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WM03KZDAZc&t=2m45s
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Because it shows them that violence makes them right. It doesn't. Communicating well does. I think it will get your child further in life. It's hard, and you may slip up, but it's worth it.
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Jeez. Not even sure I feel like arguing with these stupid notions. Just go take some psych courses you sjws.
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See..... hitting them is wrong, but getting creative.... that's where its at.

When my sister first started having boys over to the house my dad had one rule. They better be gone by the time he goes to bed or else he'd get the hose. Open door, no sex in the house. If they called his bluff and he found the guy in the bed the next morning, he'd get the hose without waking them, and soak them in the bed, make them both clean it up and then kick the guy out right afterwards.


Also, fyi, parent of the year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZWCzpFIPVQ

"Spanking is bad and doesn't work..." --every person in this thread without children.

I spank my daughter when necessary. I put my daughter in time-out when it's necessary. Until she is old enough to understand the difference between right and wrong, and the consequences of her actions, and how how her actions affect others, she will continue to be spanked/put in time-out. After her punishment, and she is calmed down, I sit her down and ask her if she knows why she was punished. I then explain why she can or can't, do this or that, and that is the end of it.

Spanking can work just as good as timeout, and vice versa. It's all about the severity of the bad behavior in my opinion. Mine is not spanked or put in timeout unless it's something fairly bad. Otherwise I just verbally communicate why what she did was wrong, and flip flop the scenario to where she is the one affected, and ask how she would feel if that was done to her.

Teaching the golden rule is difficult and can take a while to sink in for some children. Until that day comes, keeping your children in line by slapping them on the wrist/hand/bottom will have to do. Kids don't use reason and logic like adults do, so getting them to understand "if I do this I get spanked" is about as good as it gets for the time being.

Spanking your children isn't indicative of your ability to be a parent.
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"I have to hit my kids otherwise I can't stop them from doing bad things"
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The issue is just that people assume parenting will come naturally and don't do any fucking research into how to raise a human being.

they didn't do any research before and just decided to hit their kids

they still don't do any research but heard that spanking is wrong/isn't effective so they don't do that

Most parents just rely on tactics their parents used on them.
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N3xtG3nGam3r posted...

"Spanking is bad and doesn't work..." --every person in this thread without children.

I had parents and an upbringing too.

Again, I said it's wrong "Because it shows them that violence makes them right. It doesn't. Communicating well does. I think it will get your child further in life. It's hard, and you may slip up, but it's worth it."

I was not beaten unless some crazy ass shit was happening. We communicated. We yelled. We had language barriers. But we didn't beat the shit out of each other because that would have caused a bigger rift.

I think what I'm saying is universal when it comes to what happens when you beat your kid. They'll learn that violence solves an argument. That's not a good thing. That's a very bad thing. The less you beat each other up in arguments the better. So instill that.
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Ivany2008 posted...

See..... hitting them is wrong, but getting creative.... that's where its at.

When my sister first started having boys over to the house my dad had one rule. They better be gone by the time he goes to bed or else he'd get the hose. Open door, no sex in the house. If they called his bluff and he found the guy in the bed the next morning, he'd get the hose without waking them, and soak them in the bed, make them both clean it up and then kick the guy out right afterwards.


Also, fyi, parent of the year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZWCzpFIPVQ

The fact that there's even an 'if' he found a guy in her bed the next day shows this wasn't an effective deterrent
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