Board 8 > So, Goku now has an attack that warps reality and erases you like Balefire.

(+) Yeah! (+)

swordz9 posted...

I don't think I want to know any details on that....

You don't....
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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

Those guys are dead but there's probably more of their species or other races with similar potential or already at that level knowing the powercreep Super is doing. Plus potential mirrors of Hit and Magetta.

EmDubyaSee posted...

It is said in the official material (as in not from Shin or Beerus etc) that these are not just the best team, but in fact 10 strongest in Universe.

I wouldn't put too much faith in that because you'll know they'll introduce new characters in Universe 7 who are stronger.

There's only 28 planets left with Life after Beerus and Frieza's rampage. Someone in fact listed them on the Reddit even. So there aren't any other powerful races to pull from.

Also. Frieza used mutants and killed and enslaved everyone else of those races.
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EmDubyaSee posted...

I actually don't think they will. This arc is leading to the 4 strongest universes after ward (and Frieza again clearly) and the gods. Which will of course be the end. There is no more universal threat from mortals of 7

That's how Dragon Ball has always been through.

Vegeta claimed he was the strongest in the universe, but we find out he's nothing compared to Frieza or the Ginyu force, who in turn is nothing compared to Android 16/17/18 who were hidden in obscurity, then Cell who came out of nowhere, then Dabura who was in a diffrent realm, and then Majin Buu, and now Beerus and Whis who granted are still the top dogs. They did state that there's more planets with intelligent life out there which will probably eventually lead to another powercreep, be it ally or enemy.

Also I forgot that parasite alien criminal who makes normal humans on par with Gohan who's still alive.
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Has Buu not kept up his strength to match with the rest? I haven't watched any of the new stuff except the two movies. And what about Uub, is that not considered canon now?
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Buu got a power boost by training with Mr. Satan and becoming slim for a while, but he goes into a 2 month hibernation state when he gets tried (which is why he didn't help against Frieza)

Uub has been mentioned before when Goku was looking for Android 17 with Dende but Goku's felt he was too young to participate.
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And Uub is only like 4 and untrained. But no, he is canon Dende spoke on
Him about 2 months ago
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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

Uub has been mentioned before when Goku was looking for Android 17 with Dende but Goku's felt he was too young to participate.

Didn't Gohan fight Vegeta and Nappa when he was like five?
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Anagram posted...

SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

Uub has been mentioned before when Goku was looking for Android 17 with Dende but Goku's felt he was too young to participate.

Didn't Gohan fight Vegeta and Nappa when he was like five?

He was also 5 when he fought the Ginyus and Frieza...
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To be fair they were pretty desperate at that time, all they had was Piccolo, Yamcha, Tien, Krillien, Yajirobe and Chiaostzu.

Plus Nappa was like 4000 power level, the majority of ToP participants are at least SSJ3 tier, lot harder to close the gap now.
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Zeno definitely isn't an ultimate limit. Up next there'd be more exploration on timelines, since let's not forget timetravel is forbidden for these gods.

Plus there's the creator of the Super Dragon Balls, Zalama, who we still know pretty much nothing about.
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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

To be fair they were pretty desperate at that time, all they had was Piccolo, Yamcha, Tien, Krillien, Yajirobe and Chiaostzu.

Plus Nappa was like 4000 power level, the majority of ToP participants are at least SSJ3 tier, lot harder to close the gap now.

It's also Piccolo was a psychopath. Goku wouldn't hAve let let him fight. He actually was ok with Gohan growing up to be a scholar.

Besides, that was about pure power. The reason Trunks Goten and Uub aren't suitable is because of their lack of strategy team work and fighting experience.
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GuessMyUserName posted...

Zeno definitely isn't an ultimate limit. Up next there'd be more exploration on timelines, since let's not forget timetravel is forbidden for these gods.

Plus there's the creator of the Super Dragon Balls, Zalama, who we still know pretty much nothing about.

We don't know that for sure. But what we do know is god hairchy (so) is the top. Whether it be Zeno, Grand Priest, Zalama or Zenos family somewhere, we have absolutely reached the top.
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EmDubyaSee posted...

The reason Trunks Goten and Uub aren't suitable is because of their lack of strategy team work and fighting experience.

Which is pretty ironic in hindsight considering they were desperate enough to bring back Frieza and half the team just did their own thing anyway.

Even Goku and 18 ended up being hypocrites.
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SSJSephirothGokuX123 posted...

EmDubyaSee posted...

The reason Trunks Goten and Uub aren't suitable is because of their lack of strategy team work and fighting experience.

Which is pretty ironic in hindsight considering they were desperate enough to bring back Frieza and half the team just did their own thing anyway.

Even Goku and 18 ended up being hypocrites.

Yes they're idiots. They're also far stronger than Trunks and Goten though. The 3 weak humans stuck together, -!: then Gohan cause it's his plan, and Piccolo cause Gohsn
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EmDubyaSee posted...

GuessMyUserName posted...

Zeno definitely isn't an ultimate limit. Up next there'd be more exploration on timelines, since let's not forget timetravel is forbidden for these gods.

Plus there's the creator of the Super Dragon Balls, Zalama, who we still know pretty much nothing about.

We don't know that for sure. But what we do know is god hairchy (so) is the top. Whether it be Zeno, Grand Priest, Zalama or Zenos family somewhere, we have absolutely reached the top.

Don't mistake a current peak for an absolute peak. The gods could be at the top in spite of or because of eliminating some greater entity. Strong beings can be made and unmade or hidden or dormant or any one of a number of excuses to promote an extension past a god hierarchy.
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I hope Kid Trunks and Goten get some power boosts that don't relate to just when they're fused as Gotenks. I don't know how they think Kid Trunks could even want to live after seeing what a badass his alternate future timeline self is. At the very least let Kid Trunks and Goten reach Super Saiyan 2 or 3 while not fused. They're going out of their way to make Roshi and Krillin compete again so why ignore the two kid Saiyans who may one day grow up to be insanely strong if the writers actually use them :(

SovietOmega posted...

EmDubyaSee posted...

GuessMyUserName posted...

Zeno definitely isn't an ultimate limit. Up next there'd be more exploration on timelines, since let's not forget timetravel is forbidden for these gods.

Plus there's the creator of the Super Dragon Balls, Zalama, who we still know pretty much nothing about.

We don't know that for sure. But what we do know is god hairchy (so) is the top. Whether it be Zeno, Grand Priest, Zalama or Zenos family somewhere, we have absolutely reached the top.

Don't mistake a current peak for an absolute peak. The gods could be at the top in spite of or because of eliminating some greater entity. Strong beings can be made and unmade or hidden or dormant or any one of a number of excuses to promote an extension past a god hierarchy.

We've seen (in canon) Zeno destroy an Omniverse.... that's pretty much a feat that is near impossible to be equaled. I can't see anyone being above this final hierarchy.
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swordz9 posted...

I hope Kid Trunks and Goten get some power boosts that don't relate to just when they're fused as Gotenks. I don't know how they think Kid Trunks could even want to live after seeing what a badass his alternate future timeline self is. At the very least let Kid Trunks and Goten reach Super Saiyan 2 or 3 while not fused. They're going out of their way to make Roshi and Krillin compete again so why ignore the two kid Saiyans who may one day grow up to be insanely strong if the writers actually use them :(

Kid Trunks pushed Marai No Trunks to that though. It was a plot of one of the episodes.
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Goten sadly has done absolutely nothing. He didn't even try to protect his mother when Goku Black went to kill them....
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Future Trunks was still cool even before Kid Trunks could talk! At the very least you'd think Vegeta would train Kid Trunks more just to keep him in fighting form or Saiyan pride or anything really. I mean what does Kid Trunks even do otherwise? Play video games with Goten? Goku's never been a good dad, but you'd think he would want to train his kids too just to be able to keep fighting people all day >_>

swordz9 posted...

Future Trunks was still cool even before Kid Trunks could talk! At the very least you'd think Vegeta would train Kid Trunks more just to keep him in fighting form or Saiyan pride or anything really. I mean what does Kid Trunks even do otherwise? Play video games with Goten? Goku's never been a good dad, but you'd think he would want to train his kids too just to be able to keep fighting people all day >_>

It's Bulma and ChiChi who are stopping it.

The kids want to train. The fathers want them to train.
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I'm surprised Bulma is against it. Chichi is understandable since she didn't want Gohan fighting either, but Bulma seemed like she'd be fine with it to me. I haven't seen any of Super though. It's dumb anyways because it's not like either mom could physically do anything to stop the kids from training. This seems like one of the few shounen fighting series where the emphasis isn't on making the new generation surpass the previous one. I mean some of Z was until they brought Goku back and decided Gohan shouldn't stay the hero.

swordz9 posted...

I'm surprised Bulma is against it. Chichi is understandable since she didn't want Gohan fighting either, but Bulma seemed like she'd be fine with it to me. I haven't seen any of Super though. It's dumb anyways because it's not like either mom could physically do anything to stop the kids from training. This seems like one of the few shounen fighting series where the emphasis isn't on making the new generation surpass the previous one. I mean some of Z was until they brought Goku back and decided Gohan shouldn't stay the hero.

Chi chi trained Goten till Goku came back. And Trunks used to train all the time with Vegeta. I have no idea...
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Zeno destroying the omniverse is pure fanfiction that isn't definitely stated in Super at all. Fan interpretations are not canon.

Zeno is also still bound by time, an established dimension of the Dragon Ball canon.



There's absolutely room to explore beyond Zeno.
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GuessMyUserName posted...

Zeno destroying the omniverse is pure fanfiction that isn't definitely stated in Super at all. Fan interpretations are not canon.

Zeno is also still bound by time, an established dimension of the Dragon Ball canon.



There's absolutely room to explore beyond Zeno.

There is NOTHING left of Trunk's timeline. NOTHING. That isn't fanon, that is canon. The Omniverse was extinguished in one attack.
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If nothing else you'd think Chichi would just let Goten train because Gohan turned out just fine. He spent nearly all of his childhood fighting aliens who wanted to kill him or the planet he was on and he came out of it all a successful adult who is happily married and everything. Everybody should just let Piccolo be their dad >_>

swordz9 posted...

If nothing else you'd think Chichi would just let Goten train because Gohan turned out just fine. He spent nearly all of his childhood fighting aliens who wanted to kill him or the planet he was on and he came out of it all a successful adult who is happily married and everything. Everybody should just let Piccolo be their dad >_>

Piccolo for Father of the Year.
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There is nothing in U7. U7 is blank emptiness, that's the only thing that was factually established. Beyond that is fan conjecture..
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GuessMyUserName posted...

There is nothing in U7. U7 is blank emptiness, that's the only thing that was factually established. Beyond that is fan conjecture..

Herms said differently when Geekdom had him on. He said the way Japanese language translation lables it as everything in that timeline is blank emptiness.

I.E. Omniversal destructiin.
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Like I said, fan conjecture. Despite what people think, Herms isn't actually an official voice of the Dragon Ball series.
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GuessMyUserName posted...

Like I said, fan conjecture. Despite what people think, Herms isn't actually an official voice of the Dragon Ball series.

Do you think he would lie? And the other translators agreed with him. There is no one on Kaizenshu or REddit who spoke Japanese who had any opinion except TIMELINe omniversal erasure
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I personally thought he just destroyed Earth myself till Herms came on and was like, nope. Whole timeline gone, heaven, mortal realm, hell, all just gone.
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He's absolutely not lying, but it's just an interpretation of the words. Like in english, our "world" could mean our planet, or our universe, or even niche groups we live in.

Until it's actually stated or shown directly in Dragon Ball or said by someone with actual authority, it's just a ? as far as canon goes. Many things in Dragon Ball are! Like, Herms is incredibly helpful to the Dragon Ball community but his word is not law and fans need to be aware of that.


When we're talking of feats we should not be using conjecture, that's all I'm trying to say by responding to you stating it because whether he did or he didn't (it's probable he did), the point still stands he is established to be bound by Time. Zeno is not an omniscient god.
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Morning bump
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Just popping in to note that balefire does not erase you from existence, it just kills you before you were killed timeline wise which made it so the forsaken couldn't be revived because the dark one had to interfere as they died to let them revive.

It doesn't like, destroy souls or anything.

This has been your wheel of time nerd, signing off

tcaz2 posted...

Just popping in to note that balefire does not erase you from existence, it just kills you before you were killed timeline wise which made it so the forsaken couldn't be revived because the dark one had to interfere as they died to let them revive.

It doesn't like, destroy souls or anything.

This has been your wheel of time nerd, signing off

Ok.


So Goku has a better Omega Beam now, and Balefire on steroids....
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Every new topic about Super makes it look less and less appealing
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Does it matter for Goku vs Superman arguments? Goku doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would use that on anything but the worst enemies.
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pjbasis posted...

Every new topic about Super makes it look less and less appealing

It's fun to watch if you don't take it seriously.
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pjbasis posted...

Every new topic about Super makes it look less and less appealing

You have to WATCH
It actually. It's amazing. It blows GT out of the water. (Not a hard goal admittedly) but in my and many other opinion it's even better than DB. It's probably not Z level yet, but it's making positive steps at least finally.


Here is thenthihg about Super. It's not Z.

If you watch Super expecting Z you will be disappointed in it.

It's like Dragonball, it has more moments of comedy than Z had, back to some more crude humor occasionally, and lots of slice of life episodes as well as just fights. They treat all the characters as what they are, characters you loved and grew up with, so we get episodes dedicated to just Vegeta hanging with his family, or Goku doing a job, or a Yamcha episode where he is the hero of a baseball game. They have given so much nostalgia fan service like Ultimate Gohan, Yamchas death pose, Chiaoutzu
Psychic ability, WOLF FANG PITCH!!!, Vegito, Marai No Trunks meeting current Gohan who lived his dream and became a scholar and a family man, him meeting 18 after she married Krillin... FUCKING SATAN AND GOKU FIGHT AND SATAN WINS (legit one of the best moments of the show, absolutely stunningly amazing both in Japanese and English)

That's not to say it doesn't have great fights. Goku and Marai No Trunks vs Zamasu and Black was one of the best fights in the whole series (albeit short) VEGITO blue vs Merged Zamasu was great, Piccolo va Frist was great, Goku vs Hit, Goku and Gohan vs Krillin, and Goku and Tien vs Gohan and Piccolo were all awesome.

But again, it's not Z. The power levels don't work like that. If you treat it as they should, you'll be pissed, since Roshi would have went from 137 to at least Super Buutenks level through training... And Krillin and suck right now would have to be as strong as at least Buu saga base Vegito, which, I mean, beyond impossible to fathom. But I don't care and you shouldn't either. Tori, Toyatoro and Toriyama decided early on fuck making sense of power levels, if we want Krillin to somehow be on SSJ3 Gotenks level we're gonna do it. And
It's better for it.


Everyone hated GT cause it was Goku Time. And while I have heard some complaints about Super being Gokuand Vegeta time, it's really not fair. They are the 2 main characters, yes they will get the most
Shine. But Marai No Trunks killed a main enemy, and Gohan has so far had more time this arc than even Vegeta, and everyone so far has all gotten entire episodes around just them. Super reminds you hey ate all close friends constantly, Z never showed you that and was all about battles. It really is great, and you should give it a chance...

You should also skip the first 2 arcs if you've seen the movies. Just trust me on this.
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kevwaffles posted...

pjbasis posted...

Every new topic about Super makes it look less and less appealing

It's fun to watch if you don't take it seriously.

This
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Anagram posted...

Does it matter for Goku vs Superman arguments? Goku doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would use that on anything but the worst enemies.

Yes. It does. Goku only cares about winning fights.


He currently has led to the direct murder of 58.3 of the Omniverse because he wanted a fight. I'm
Sure you've heard the meme about Goku being the villain of this arc.... it's cause it's fucking true...
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EmDubyaSee posted...

You should also skip the first 2 arcs if you've seen the movies. Just trust me on this.

Not completely. You miss Vegeta on vacation doing this. Also Goku v Satan is in there.
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JonThePenguin posted...

EmDubyaSee posted...

You should also skip the first 2 arcs if you've seen the movies. Just trust me on this.

Not completely. You miss Vegeta on vacation doing this. Also Goku v Satan is in there.

I used to have the actual list...

I know you watch episode 1 and 2

I believe you then skip 3-19. Watch 20-23
Skip 24-37. You can decide what you want to watch if the Copy Vegeta saga... and the either start from there, or start from Universe 6. Either way should be fine.
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as a huge DB fan that's been watching Super since day 1, it definite is not amazing

BoG great, RoF trash, U6 was meh, F. Trunks was major disappointing, and the current arc has been a huuuuuuge draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag
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this week however is absolutely a glorious ep
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It probably was better for me that I hadn't been watching it until most of the setup portion for this arc was done.
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I've only watched the 2 movies, and fairly recently. BoG was probably the funniest shit I've seen in all of DB. RoF was entertaining but I had issues with it.
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at the very least, Super gave us some fantastic DB character with Beerus & Whis
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Beerus and Whis have been pretty consistently amazing for different reasons. They've enabled the scope to expand too, in ways that don't really annoy me. Sure, the plot that has given us a window into these other places has dragged on a bit, but the actual existence has enabled some drama beyond just 'the new big bad appeared, time to train until we can win' that so plagued what came before.
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