Board 8 > FFXIV Raiding > WoW Raiding

(+) Yeah! (+)

Actually I believe the 0 light counter before Trial of the Grand Crusader firmly sits at '1 guild' <_< (could be wrong, but I remember 0 light feasting on some fucking souls)
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banananor posted...

if dps doesn't really matter (but i guess some people are saying it does?)

It depends. There are three difficulty tiers in FF14 - normal, extreme, and savage. Normal is casual. Extreme is much harder but you can still eke out wins with bad allies. For Savage you need 8 good players (a.k.a. full party) or you lose. Period. DPS checks are very harsh in Savage content. Note that there's a ton of Extreme content and it's very fun, so not being able to do Savage isn't a huge deal.

As for balance - every class is viable. However the new expansion threw off balance somewhat. Monk is usable but clearly outclassed. Samurai is busted and Machinist is garbage. Scholar is harsher on MP costs than it should be and White Mage got weird. These issues will be ironed out over balance patches though
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Also, one thing that will make playing with your friends easier is Echo. Content that isn't current (So most of it) gives you bonuses for the next attempt if you get far and die. Goes up to a 25% increase in all stats. It helps all players experience the old stuff.
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Echo isn't up for Alex yet, as a note.
[Just did A11n. ...It's still Ark/Cruise Chaser Blassty, aka forward and back and forward and back and forward and back and put one foot forward [it's not line dancing. It's what he does to your rectum.]. Lots of wipes on Phase 3 at Shiva Pattern Hawk Blaster. No Echo today.]

...the event with the FC deletition was related to Alex Savage, and go figure it was over A11S.

Also, while the reason he was kicked was low DPS, he was probably eating Propeller Winds. [Which is a hilarious mechanic, BTW. It catches out of position DPS and then punishes the healer with death for it.]
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banananor posted...

ahaha, pretty much everything about that post was perfect

claiming karazhan was in vanilla
claiming ulduar was the top tier content for a year (it was 4 months)
soft claiming he finished ulduar and had nothing left to do

10/10

I meant Naxxramas, obviously.

I wasn't counting Grand Tournament, which from what I understand was more of a filler event.

And honestly, I was so checked out by the time that Ulduar came out that it had to be damn good to keep me motivated. It didn't. I didn't even hang around for my guild to beat the zone on normal. I tried it a couple times, got to see most of the fights, shrugged, and left. I basically never played WoW again.
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Also, a huge difference between WoW and FFXIV--

There's much less time committed to XIV raids [well, comparing the 8 Player Raids [Coil, Alex, Trials] against WoW raids; the 24 Players raids (Crystal Tower, Dun Scaith, Ivalice*) not withstanding] due to the way they're laid out.

In XIV a raid instance is 1 part of a wing, or hell, just a straight single boss encounter.
Savages [At least Alex and Coil didn't] do not even have trash- like A11S, you literally start at Cruise Chaser's platform. You zone into to him coming out of the Portal and transforming.
It begins and ends with the boss kill.

But even the normals have "lollolololtrash" (like maybe 2 pulls) then bossfight.

Then the instance ends.
You're not done with the wing, but you're done with /that/ instance.

This allows way more flexibility with the raids.

Also, lockouts? What lockouts? You can always do the content. You don't always get gear or loot. But the content is always accessible.

And I'll say that XIV's raids are more technical than WoW's. In WoW a loss came down to "We don't have the gear for this" or "X player messed up simple thing".
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azuarc posted...

banananor posted...

ahaha, pretty much everything about that post was perfect

claiming karazhan was in vanilla
claiming ulduar was the top tier content for a year (it was 4 months)
soft claiming he finished ulduar and had nothing left to do

10/10

I meant Naxxramas, obviously.

I wasn't counting Grand Tournament, which from what I understand was more of a filler event.

And honestly, I was so checked out by the time that Ulduar came out that it had to be damn good to keep me motivated. It didn't. I didn't even hang around for my guild to beat the zone on normal. I tried it a couple times, got to see most of the fights, shrugged, and left. I basically never played WoW again.

You meaning Naxx wasn't apparent to me, at least. I legit thought you thought Kara was vanilla.

Tournament wasn't filler, it was a raid with all the fixins. It's worth counting.
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metroid composite posted...

banananor posted...

i guess my question is... what do you do when your group isn't meeting a dps check?

are you allowed to replace the low DPSer? or is that a no-no, since you're not supposed to be able to tell who has low dps

I mean...for 95%+ of content in the game low DPS is just not why you wipe. You wipe because people don't dodge, or understand boss mechanics, or because the healer or tank mess up. For the kind of battles you'd use a party finder for, DPS are really the least important role.

No really, I did a run of Shinryu tonight where three of the DPS dealt less damage than the tank (Paladin). We wiped a few times, but better healer play might have prevented the wipes.

Actually hard DPS checks are used for the high-end raids that 99% of the playerbase never clears. You don't do pick up groups for these fights. People form fixed teams, with raid schcedules, hold tryouts to get onto the teams.

I mean people did pug groups for Creator Savage all the way through. 11S and 12S were kinda sketchy but 9s and 10s were pretty good for pugs. And all those fights had DPS checks of some kind. Even discounting those, EX primals are definitely PUG-friendly and tend to have DPS checks/enrage timers.

Also never forget fucking Nidhogg Normal having a fairly easy dps check that a laughably high amount of players had trouble beating in pick up groups. Pretty sure that scared SE from having any sort of DPS checks in casual content and maybe EX, too, because that was a big wake-up call to average player skill.
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As someone whose WoW raiding peaked during ulduar and who bought FFXIV but ended up neglecting it once Destiny came out, this topic got my attention.

More curious what the new player experience is like right now for FFXIV. How is the leveling? Is grouping up a thing that happens a lot prior to endgame? What is the average time to reach max level?
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bng_mmmk posted...

More curious what the new player experience is like right now for FFXIV. How is the leveling? Is grouping up a thing that happens a lot prior to endgame? What is the average time to reach max level?

Leveling isn't terrible. Slogs at 30-50 though. There's a double EXP bonus for certain servers for 1-60. Starting now is fairly good idea.


You can approach 14 like a single player RPG. You never need to get that MMO mindset just to experience content. When time comes for other players to get involved, there's a button for that.1

There's definite dungeons to do- and all content, raids included [and note, Normals are not LFR. They're still raids- E.G. doing the Alex story right now? Creator still puts off a bunch of threat, except Lamebrix Lootbox], are on a finder.

SB content has this issue of enemies being made out of HP bars, but it's fairly good.
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basically, it sounds like both games are good

i most recently played warcraft in i want to say march, and the raiding was better than it had ever been before. the only reason i quit was because every single one of my real life friends had moved on and i needed

the flexible normal mode allows you to use any number of players between 10 and 30, dropping in and out at any time, and it is just challenging enough to enjoy with people that aren't very good

then there's the 'raid finder' snooze mode.

i'll probably be trying to hit max in ffxiv, so i'll do my best to provide an honest comparison of the two

@azuarc, didn't relize you were being genuine, thanks for explaining
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What endgame content is there in FFXIV outside of raiding?
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bng_mmmk posted...

What endgame content is there in FFXIV outside of raiding?

PvP if that's your thing.

There's a lot of random little shit though.

...It's basically the same as any other MMO.

Also-- why I compared Alex against Uld [This is a Normal, note]:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLCWCPyxByg

That's like... phase 3 or 4 of that fight [and it's 3 phases anyway].
It should seem like Mimiron. They're both Voltron/Power Rangers/Combining Mecha.
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Another thing to note is that FF14 actually has a great story with lots of cutscenes. Really good music too. They infused the soul of a single-player FF game into it.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Another thing to note is that FF14 actually has a great story with lots of cutscenes. Really good music too. They infused the soul of a single-player FF game into it.

Vouch. FF14 is a better final fantasy than both 13 and 15. Its system would stand on its own completely as single player if your allies were AI controlled and functioned with a smart AI IMO.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also never forget fucking Nidhogg Normal having a fairly easy dps check that a laughably high amount of players had trouble beating in pick up groups. Pretty sure that scared SE from having any sort of DPS checks in casual content and maybe EX, too, because that was a big wake-up call to average player skill.

Ugh. Nidhogg EX. I tried so hard to clear that when it was current but I just got crap group after crap group. Really fun fight but man!

As far as DPS goes - I never knew how bad other people were until I used a *method censored by Square Enix*. I'm at the top of the charts 99% of the time, even during the 24-man instances. And I'm not even that great!
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

Another thing to note is that FF14 actually has a great story with lots of cutscenes. Really good music too. They infused the soul of a single-player FF game into it.

Vouch. FF14 is a better final fantasy than both 13 and 15. Its system would stand on its own completely as single player if your allies were AI controlled and functioned with a smart AI IMO.

It definitely is.
It's like the best FF released this decade.

...Except 1.0.
1.0 was so hilariously bad that SE bad ended the game and kicked off 2.0.
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As far as DPS goes - I never knew how bad other people were until I used a *method censored by Square Enix*. I'm at the top of the charts 99% of the time, even during the 24-man instances. And I'm not even that great!

This is why an absolute ban on *censored* would be absolutely stupid.
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The funny thing is that 1.0 being so bad made the plot better. It forced the 1.0 ending, which set the stage for everything after and is still amazing.
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Airship_Canon posted...

...Except 1.0.
1.0 was so hilariously bad that SE bad ended the game and kicked off 2.0.

Like, in case anyone thinks you're joking.

You're not.

They really did give a bad end to the game where Bahamut more or less reshapes the country because the protagonists failed hard.

And this set the stage for an amazing plotline.

Like, I'm gonna be honest, I haven't played the game because I'm allergic to monthly payments, but I've watched the cutscenes and it's so good that it's honestly better than watching some TV shows.

Even the stories that don't have voice acting.
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Also, this topic gives me an excuse to post the artwork I had comissioned of my character:



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KamikazePotato posted...

The funny thing is that 1.0 being so bad made the plot better. It forced the 1.0 ending, which set the stage for everything after and is still amazing.

I still watch the End of an Era trailer occasionally. It may the single best thing Square's ever done that wasn't a full game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39j5v8jlndM

Seriously, look at that. So many chills!
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KamikazePotato posted...

Also, this topic gives me an excuse to post the artwork I had comissioned of my character:

Dayumn, KP, your boy got swag
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Your compliments please His Majesty.



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KamikazePotato posted...

Your compliments please His Majesty.

That Helm...
Well you've only done everything.
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Airship_Canon posted...

1.0 was so hilariously bad that SE bad ended the game and kicked off 2.0.

It takes a special kind of bad game for the developers to decide the only way to improve it is to literally blow the world up and start over.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

The funny thing is that 1.0 being so bad made the plot better. It forced the 1.0 ending, which set the stage for everything after and is still amazing.

I still watch the End of an Era trailer occasionally. It may the single best thing Square's ever done that wasn't a full game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39j5v8jlndM

Seriously, look at that. So many chills!

So what backstory would we need to catch up on in order to fully appreciate that?
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redrocket_pub posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

The funny thing is that 1.0 being so bad made the plot better. It forced the 1.0 ending, which set the stage for everything after and is still amazing.

I still watch the End of an Era trailer occasionally. It may the single best thing Square's ever done that wasn't a full game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39j5v8jlndM

Seriously, look at that. So many chills!

So what backstory would we need to catch up on in order to fully appreciate that?

Not much. It's 1.0. Which is literally NOT part of the game anymore.

Empire Invaded.
Protags fight back, try to stop the empire from summoning Bahamut/Casting Meteor.
Empire wins, Bahamut is summoned, entire world is fucked.
Loui'Sioux seals Bahamut in the Binding Coil.
Umbral Age begins.
Cue the start of the game-- yes, START.

1.0-- and that cutscene is literally backstory for the real game, which begins with 2.0.
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Not_an_Owl posted...

Airship_Canon posted...

1.0 was so hilariously bad that SE bad ended the game and kicked off 2.0.

It takes a special kind of bad game for the developers to decide the only way to improve it is to literally blow the world up and start over.

Hey, WoW blew everything up for the fuck of it.
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redrocket_pub posted...

So what backstory would we need to catch up on in order to fully appreciate that?

1.0 story in a nutshell:

Garlean Empire: grr we're going to invade Eorzea!
Eorzea: Oh no!
Primals: We're immensely powerul spiritual beings made out of aether and creature's wishes. Our very existence drains the world of aether and getting near us brainwashes people.
Eorzea: Oh no!
Warriors of Light: Through the power of the Echo, granted by the goddess Hydaelan, we can fight the Primals and beat back the Empire!
Eorzea: Hooray!
Garlean Empire: Time to invade! Watch as our unparalleled military might washes over your pitiful country like waves against-
Nael: I'm a Garlean commander, and while that's cool and all, I'm gonna summon Bahamut.
Garlean Empire: You probably shouldn't summon Bahamut.
Nael: I'm gonna summon Bahamut!
Eorzea: You really shouldn't summon Bahamut.
Nael: TOO LATE I'M GONNA DO IT!
Louisoix: I'm an extremely experience mage with centuries of knowledge and experience and oh my god what is happening. I have to stop Bahamut!

There ya go.
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Thanks.
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wow, that cutscene is pretty fantastic

leveling up, soon to hit 30. i'm worried i picked the wrong class, as it sounds like both summoner and scholar are a bit weak right now. hopefully it's not as bad as the internet would tell me
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KP summed it up. It really is that simple - that's kinda the beauty of how 1.0's failure made 2.0's story that much more impactful. You know the whole 'age of legends that ended with a terrible cataclysm' thing a lot of games pull off for backstory? In FF14's case, you got to live through it (at least if you played in 1.0). And because Bahamut is a raidboss, you even get to avert the end of a new era by beating him down! I can't even imagine what having actually played through 1.0 and then getting to see that cutscene must have felt like. Most games don't manage something so impressive across their entire game and Squeenix did it with just a trailer.
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Lakshmi EX beated. Honestly the whole fight feels like one giant DPS check - the PUG I was playing with kept wiping because we ran out of the magical solve-everything shield before she died. When we finally won it took every erg of DPS the group had and we were like a second away from wiping again anyway. Fun fight overall, though!
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banananor posted...

wow, that cutscene is pretty fantastic

leveling up, soon to hit 30. i'm worried i picked the wrong class, as it sounds like both summoner and scholar are a bit weak right now. hopefully it's not as bad as the internet would tell me

You'll be fine. Internet always exaggerates how bad things actually are. You watching the story btw?

Also, if it matters for your friends, FF14 has an extremely good controller setup that works as well as a mouse/keyboard.
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Really wanted to get into FF14 but I hate level grinding and can't stomach doing a 1-max again in a new game.

That and I was gonna go Lancer but my buddy told me Lancer's are stuck with the n00b stereotype in this game.
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Wedge Antilles posted...

Really wanted to get into FF14 but I hate level grinding and can't stomach doing a 1-max again in a new game.

I mean, you don't have to grind for levels in FF14. The MSQ quests + your daily leveling roulette will take you from 1-60 easily.

And if you really want to skip the leveling that badly you could always get a level skip to 60.

Also there's nothing actually wrong with Lancer/Dragoon. People just like to make fun of them because some people like to jump off cliffs and/or animation lock themselves in AoEs. The class itself is perfectly fine to play, and I've never seen anyone actually harass people over playing Dragoon in 4 years of playing the game. It's more of a forum in-joke than an actual thing in-game.

tcaz2 posted...

Also there's nothing actually wrong with Lancer/Dragoon. People just like to make fun of them because some people like to jump off cliffs and/or animation lock themselves in AoEs. The class itself is perfectly fine to play, and I've never seen anyone actually harass people over playing Dragoon in 4 years of playing the game. It's more of a forum in-joke than an actual thing in-game.

It's funny because the in-joke started in FF11 during the relatively brief time that dragoons had the worst damage of the damage-dealing classes, especially with their pet dragon dying in serious content, the pet summon skill being locked behind a two hour cooldown, and generally being the butt of all of the balance issues of the time.

The worst you'll get is being teased about being a loldrg or tanking the floor whenever you fall in combat. It's just a meme, though.

I mean, Monks get teased for having 0 damage even though that's not true.
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One last question since this seems to be the place to ask.

How would you rank the classes in terms of easiest rotation to hardest?
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Leveling a single class in FF14 is super easy because the main scenario quests give tons of EXP. After that if you want to multiclass, you'll have to grind, but it's not terrible because having a single class at max level gives bonus EXP to all the others.

Wedge Antilles posted...

One last question since this seems to be the place to ask.

How would you rank the classes in terms of easiest rotation to hardest?

Out of the DPS classes?
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KamikazePotato posted...

Leveling a single class in FF14 is super easy because the main scenario quests give tons of EXP. After that if you want to multiclass, you'll have to grind, but it's not terrible because having a single class at max level gives bonus EXP to all the others.

Wedge Antilles posted...

One last question since this seems to be the place to ask.

How would you rank the classes in terms of easiest rotation to hardest?

Out of the DPS classes?

Sorry, yes. DPS.
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If you're just looking for a pure casual experience and not push DPS too hard, Bard is far the easiest class to play at the moment. Monk's not far behind. If you're looking to push each class to its limit though, they're all about equally difficult, and whichever one is the toughest to play depends on the fight in question. Dragoon, Monk, and Black Mage like their enemy to stay relatively still so they can build up their meters and hit positionals correctly. Bard and Summoner excel at fights with a lot of movement because they can attack on the go. Stuff like that.

Here's a basic list for you:

Melee DPS:
Monk
Dragoon
Ninja
Samurai

Ranged DPS:
Bard
Black Mage
Summoner
Machinist

Hybrid:
Red Mage
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Cool, thanks.
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KamikazePotato posted...

You'll be fine. Internet always exaggerates how bad things actually are. You watching the story btw?

i try to pay attention. it's hard sometimes! seems impossible for an MMO story to hold a candle to a single player game

i also just hit a wall on my level 30 class quest. think i'm going to have to either level up or gear up some more

oh also i thought i had to save up 2000 seals to get a mount. picked them up while waiting for dungeon queues, went to turn them in and it's only 200 ... whoops
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banananor posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

You'll be fine. Internet always exaggerates how bad things actually are. You watching the story btw?

i try to pay attention. it's hard sometimes! seems impossible for an MMO story to hold a candle to a single player game

i also just hit a wall on my level 30 class quest. think i'm going to have to either level up or gear up some more

oh also i thought i had to save up 2000 seals to get a mount. picked them up while waiting for dungeon queues, went to turn them in and it's only 200 ... whoops

It was 2000 until recently.
But it's not like 2000 seals is hard to come by. FATEs hand out hundreds.
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Yeah the A Realm Reborn (2.0) story, while it sets things up nicely, isn't nearly as good as the Heavensward (3.0) or Stormblood (4.0) stories.

What do you mean by 'hit a wall'? If you're only using one class then the gear you get just from main story quests should be all you need to worry about for a while.
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Honestly the lowest point in the story is the 30s slog and then ASTRAL ERA.

Astral Era can go fuck itself- it's terribly designed. Worst 100 quests ever. [It also has like the worst Raid Fight in the game. While Castrum is slow as fuck and generally awful and unrewarding gameplay wise, it's great storywise and the fights themselves are fun, Steps of Fate is terrible and unrewarding. But you have to do it to get to Heavensward.] (What's fun is that SoF is on the Trial Roulette, and there's no "Opt Out" buttons. The best thing about SoF? Seeing all the people who hate the fuck out of it. Dropping the Roulette locks you out for a while too.)

Although, you need to experience Astral Era to really get Heavensward.
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I actually enjoyed the pre-Heavensward stuff more than what came before it. It does drag on too long, though.
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KamikazePotato posted...

What do you mean by 'hit a wall'? If you're only using one class then the gear you get just from main story quests should be all you need to worry about for a while.

i'm an arcanist at level 30, gear level is 21- there's a quest where i have to protect an npc from waves of adds, and i can stand in a circle for a defensive buff. the dps/hps just doesn't seem to line up, the npc is unhealable, and the quest is 30 minimum, 34 'suggested'

i could probably git gud (i did get green fire in wow back when it was tough), but it might be more efficient to trek along with the story quests (level requirement for those is 30) and get some exp and gear

looking up a guide online, there do seem to be some tricks- the npc's pet is healable. we SHALL SEE. i am looking forward to unlocking the summoner subclass and being able to do decent dps
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So I picked up FF14. I have no experience with it. I have a lot of WoW experience though. I'm looking through the classes, getting an understanding of everything.

If I picked Conjurer, I then become a White Mage. White Mage can only heal though? No DPS? Is this kinda like playing a Holy Priest?

Arcanist can become Summoner (DPS) or Scholar (Heals), right? So you'd never really rely on a Scholar to do DPS?

I'm interested in healing but sometimes I like to DPS too.
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