Current Events > High Court To Hear Case Of Cake Shop That Refused To Bake For Same-Sex Wedding

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/06/26/534417186/high-court-to-hear-case-of-cake-shop-that-refused-to-bake-for-same-sex-wedding

"The Supreme Court has agreed to take up a case on whether the owner of a Colorado cake shop can refuse to provide service to same-sex couples due to his religious beliefs about marriage.

Jack Phillips, who along with his wife owns Masterpiece Cakeshop in suburban Denver, has argued that a state law compelling him to produce wedding cakes for gay couples, which runs counter to his religious beliefs, violates his right to free speech under the First Amendment.

David Mullins and Charlie Craig, who are now married, filed a discrimination lawsuit in September 2012 after Phillips refused to make their wedding cake.

The case is "about more than just a cake," Craig wrote in a blog post for the ACLU. "It's about making sure that Masterpiece and other businesses don't discriminate against customers because of who they are."

The Colorado Civil Rights Commission sided with Mullins and Craig. It said that if Phillips is creating custom wedding cakes for heterosexual couples, he must do the same for gay couples. The Colorado Court of Appeals also ruled in favor of the couple.

Phillips argues that he is happy to sell baked goods to gay customers. "He simply believes that only marriage between a man and a woman should be celebrated," his lawyers wrote in the petition asking the court to take the case. "Thus, he declined to create custom art for a specific event because of the message it communicated, not because of the persons requesting it."

The petition stated that Phillips faced a stark choice: "Either use your talents to create expression that conflicts with your religious beliefs about marriage, or suffer punishment under Colorado's public accommodation law."

Advocates for the LGBT community see the case as simply an issue of basic rights. "Open a business to serve the public? You have an obligation to serve everyone," Laura Durso of the LGBT research and communications project at the Center for American Progress told NPR in 2013.

Durso said that allowing businesses to deny services to gay couples for religious reasons was a "slippery slope" and warned that it could lead to discrimination against LGBT employees.

Now, the nation's top court will decide."

Can't wait for the shit posts to come from this.
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I hope they win. LGBT have gotten their rights now religious people need theirs
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Interesting
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Hope the cake shop gets fucking rekt
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those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.
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I hope the cake shop gets destroyed just like the other one that tried this bullshit
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

A wedding cake, yes. The bakers obviously feel that by baking the cake, they're participating in the wedding, if they don't want to involve themselves in what they believe to be sinful activity, don't force them.
The are genuine times for protecting classes, this is not one of them. They gays come in off the street to buy pre-made cubcakes or something, they shouldn't be denied.
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I actually can see a scenario where the cake shop wins this given that they didn't want to serve the gay wedding but have never discriminated against gay customers for walk-in sales in the past (the difference between an event and a person). And also because the gay couple needs to make some argument that the "no gay weddings" policy creates an undo burden for them that would be unfair. If, for example, they could have just walked across the street and gotten the cake at a different bakery, this really hurts their case.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

Does the Quran or Hadith declare romances between Christians to be a sinful act? If so, then yes.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

A wedding cake, yes. The bakers obviously feel that by baking the cake, they're participating in the wedding, if they don't want to involve themselves in what they believe to be sinful activity, don't force them.
The are genuine times for protecting classes, this is not one of them. They gays come in off the street to buy pre-made cubcakes or something, they shouldn't be denied.

after reading more about this case, i think i'm in the same ballpark as you.

we've seen similar cases where a print shop, for example, can't be forced to print something the owner/worker disagrees or has issues with. for example, a Christian sign maker could refuse to create a custom sign that said "ALLUH AKBAR", just like a Muslim could refuse to print a picture of the Charlie Hebdo (whatever) cartoon.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

I would, to be honest. I mean, those Muslim truck drivers who were fired for refusing to deliver alcohol by claiming even being around it was against their religion (which is not even true, BTW) won their unlawful termination lawsuit, so not performing custom services for a wedding seems a lot less egregious. The courts clearly allow workers some freedom in refusing actions and services for others based on their religion. I get that there is a distinction between employees and ownership, but that doesn't change the principle.
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Paragon21XX posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

Does the Quran or Hadith declare romances between Christians to be a sinful act? If so, then yes.

It says "kill them where you find them." It's kinda hard to have a romance with someone that you're required to kill.
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Patty_Fleur posted...

LGBT have gotten their rights now religious people need theirs

The right to discriminate isn't a right anyone needs.
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The Admiral posted...

I mean, those Muslim truck drivers who were fired for refusing to deliver alcohol by claiming even being around it was against their religion (which is not even true, BTW) won their unlawful termination lawsuit, so not performing custom services for a wedding seems a lot less egregious.

this example was cited in a number of arguments i read about this case. i wholeheartedly agree.

The Admiral posted...

The courts clearly allow workers some freedom in refusing actions and services for others based on their religion

yup. the fact that the cake is special/custom is the key distinction here.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

Yes. If they don't agree with the Christian marriage they are in their right of not wanting to take part in it and the Christian couple would have to look for another bakery.

You won't see anyone complaining about that scenario though.
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scaler24 posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

Yes. If they don't agree with the Christian marriage they are in their right of not wanting to take part in it and the Christian couple would have to look for another bakery.

You won't see anyone complaining about that scenario though.

eh, i suspect that if a Muslim refused to do something for a Christian based on religious reasons we'd certainly hear about it.
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I'm actually pretty certain if a Hasidic Jewish couple was refused a wedding cake by an Muslim bakery, a lot of the people defending the gay couple here would side with the Muslim bakery. Even though that's the same violation of protected rights as this one.

And I would support the Muslim bakery in that case.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

eh, i suspect that if a Muslim refused to do something for a Christian based on religious reasons we'd certainly hear about it.

You might hear about it on a news blog here and there, but it's certainly not a juicy enough piece of news for channels like CNN and you will certainly not hear about it from websites like The Huffington Post.
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If the business was owned by Muslims....
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Things that cannot be changed like race, sex, and orientation should be protected over things that can like religion
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The Admiral posted...

I'm actually pretty certain if a Hasidic Jewish couple was refused a wedding cake by an Muslim bakery, a lot of the people defending the gay couple here would side with the Muslim bakery. Even though that's the same violation of protected rights as this one.

And I would support the Muslim bakery in that case.

That's just stupid. SJWs are anti-semites now?
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Webmaster4531 posted...

The Admiral posted...

I'm actually pretty certain if a Hasidic Jewish couple was refused a wedding cake by an Muslim bakery, a lot of the people defending the gay couple here would side with the Muslim bakery. Even though that's the same violation of protected rights as this one.

And I would support the Muslim bakery in that case.

That's just stupid. SJWs are anti-semites now?

Some of them clearly are:
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/400-current-events/75505040
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

A wedding cake, yes. The bakers obviously feel that by baking the cake, they're participating in the wedding, if they don't want to involve themselves in what they believe to be sinful activity, don't force them.
The are genuine times for protecting classes, this is not one of them. They gays come in off the street to buy pre-made cubcakes or something, they shouldn't be denied.

after reading more about this case, i think i'm in the same ballpark as you.

we've seen similar cases where a print shop, for example, can't be forced to print something the owner/worker disagrees or has issues with. for example, a Christian sign maker could refuse to create a custom sign that said "ALLUH AKBAR", just like a Muslim could refuse to print a picture of the Charlie Hebdo (whatever) cartoon.

I dunno. What if it was a "black wedding" for example? If you are in the service industry, serving people you may not like is just something you need to put up with (unless want they want is actually questionable/illegal/whatever)

Your religious views shouldn't exempt you.
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Funkydog posted...

If you are in the service industry, serving people you may not like is just something you need to put up with (unless want they want is actually questionable/illegal/whatever)

there's a distinction between serving people and doing custom services, as per the Supreme Court.

for example, the bakery in question refusing to create a customized cake for a gay wedding is different from them refusing to sell a pre-made / existing cake to a gay couple. the important distinction is in the 'custom service' part.
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Funkydog posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

A wedding cake, yes. The bakers obviously feel that by baking the cake, they're participating in the wedding, if they don't want to involve themselves in what they believe to be sinful activity, don't force them.
The are genuine times for protecting classes, this is not one of them. They gays come in off the street to buy pre-made cubcakes or something, they shouldn't be denied.

after reading more about this case, i think i'm in the same ballpark as you.

we've seen similar cases where a print shop, for example, can't be forced to print something the owner/worker disagrees or has issues with. for example, a Christian sign maker could refuse to create a custom sign that said "ALLUH AKBAR", just like a Muslim could refuse to print a picture of the Charlie Hebdo (whatever) cartoon.

I dunno. What if it was a "black wedding" for example? If you are in the service industry, serving people you may not like is just something you need to put up with (unless want they want is actually questionable/illegal/whatever)

Your religious views shouldn't exempt you.

First you would have to find a religion that actually hates black people.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

Funkydog posted...

If you are in the service industry, serving people you may not like is just something you need to put up with (unless want they want is actually questionable/illegal/whatever)

there's a distinction between serving people and doing custom services, as per the Supreme Court.

for example, the bakery in question refusing to create a customized cake for a gay wedding is different from them refusing to sell a pre-made / existing cake to a gay couple. the important distinction is in the 'custom service' part.

Oh, well. i've no idea how things are actually ruled in America for these sort of things but I can see your point. I still think it is silly, and don't much care if your religion says X (christian, muslim, jewish, whatever) unless someone is trying to spread hateful message then you should just suck it up and do it. We all have to do stuff we may not like in jobs and this just seems to be another example to me.

Still, I can see that still offering a premade one isn't exactly a bad concession but I just don't think "religious" reasons should exempt you from doing a part of your job.

scaler24 posted...

First you would have to find a religion that actually hates black people.

An extreme example, I admit. But why would one discrimination be okay, but refusal to serve a black person not be? For religious reasons or otherwise.
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scaler24 posted...

Funkydog posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

those of you who are defending the bakery on the grounds of "religious freedom", would you support a Muslim bakery that refused to bake a cake for a Christian couple? because it's the same thing.

A wedding cake, yes. The bakers obviously feel that by baking the cake, they're participating in the wedding, if they don't want to involve themselves in what they believe to be sinful activity, don't force them.
The are genuine times for protecting classes, this is not one of them. They gays come in off the street to buy pre-made cubcakes or something, they shouldn't be denied.

after reading more about this case, i think i'm in the same ballpark as you.

we've seen similar cases where a print shop, for example, can't be forced to print something the owner/worker disagrees or has issues with. for example, a Christian sign maker could refuse to create a custom sign that said "ALLUH AKBAR", just like a Muslim could refuse to print a picture of the Charlie Hebdo (whatever) cartoon.

I dunno. What if it was a "black wedding" for example? If you are in the service industry, serving people you may not like is just something you need to put up with (unless want they want is actually questionable/illegal/whatever)

Your religious views shouldn't exempt you.

First you would have to find a religion that actually hates black people.

The Mark of Cain has been used that way.
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Not really sure how to structure my point so I'm just going to toss out some thoughts.

Been arguing for gay marriage since I've been on this site, one of the main points if that it wouldn't involve unwilling participants (sans govt. officials required to sign the docs), specifically religious holy men. Maybe this is a slippery slope argument but still. Lawrence Krauss of all people, perhaps miss-articulating his point, seemed to think that is the path we should* go down. (can't source, dude doesn't have a video less than 1 hr long on yt)

Christians, gay or not, presumably have a genuine, yet irrational fear of hell. This fear is no less something we should submit them to than any other phobic with their phobia. Christians not wanting to bake a cake for a gay wedding, their feelings, fears, are no less important than the gays to be wed.

Shutting down otherwise successful businesses, isn't good for gay rights, individual rights, lgbt relations, the economy, fucking anything. It's divisive and shitty. Those people were looking for a fight. Not for a cake.
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i've always wondered, being gay myself, why you would want a cake from a place that hates you

this case will be about where do we draw the line between religious freedom and non-discriminatory engagement in society

there are things the LGBT community needs before cake like being able to get housing, not fired from work, etc. I wonder how this case will generalize to those things
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LotrMorgoth posted...

I wonder how this case will generalize to those things

Bigots will get smarter. Use the right language, post the right signs, have the right prefaces.
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What if black people were against my religious beliefs, like if I made up some religion? Can I not sell to black people on the basis of them not being black but because "thier type" are against my religion? I don't think the cake people are going to win here.

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Shutting down otherwise successful businesses, isn't good for gay rights, individual rights, lgbt relations, the economy, fucking anything. It's divisive and shitty. Those people were looking for a fight. Not for a cake.

I do agree with this to some degree, even if I think they have no real basis to not have baked it.
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i'm hopeful that this pope may step in and provide an alternative, like provide the service and then work with the church to "cleanse yourself of your sin" of supporting a same-sex marriage.

within the framework of the religion, people sin all of the time and there are mechanisms to work through these things. it doesn't need to be an either-or kinda thing
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LotrMorgoth posted...

i've always wondered, being gay myself, why you would want a cake from a place that hates you

Yeah, all other aspects aside, I kind of wondered this too. This is something you and all your friends and loved ones will be eating. Do you really want to consume that knowing the person who made it hates you and was forced to do so against their will?
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Uh yeah?
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Cocytus posted...

What if black people were against my religious beliefs, like if I made up some religion? Can I not sell to black people on the basis of them not being black but because "thier type" are against my religion? I don't think the cake people are going to win here.

LotrMorgoth posted...

i'm hopeful that this pope may step in and provide an alternative, like provide the service and then work with the church to "cleanse yourself of your sin" of supporting a same-sex marriage.

within the framework of the religion, people sin all of the time and there are mechanisms to work through these things. it doesn't need to be an either-or kinda thing

Main problem is the majority of Christian people in the US are not Catholic, so they don't really care about what the Pope says.
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scaler24 posted...

LotrMorgoth posted...

i'm hopeful that this pope may step in and provide an alternative, like provide the service and then work with the church to "cleanse yourself of your sin" of supporting a same-sex marriage.

within the framework of the religion, people sin all of the time and there are mechanisms to work through these things. it doesn't need to be an either-or kinda thing

Main problem is the majority of Christian people in the US are not Catholic, so they don't really care about what the Pope says.

oh that's right, my bad! forgot there are all the different groups in there
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LotrMorgoth posted...

i've always wondered, being gay myself, why you would want a cake from a place that hates you

Because they came in looking for trouble. That's what happens when this country makes it so easy for people to sue over anything. In any other country, they would have looked for another bakery and moved on.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Christians, gay or not, presumably have a genuine, yet irrational fear of hell. This fear is no less something we should submit them to than any other phobic with their phobia.

Unless we are going to classify religion as mental disability, you do not want to attack the problem from this angle.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Christians, gay or not, presumably have a genuine, yet irrational fear of hell. This fear is no less something we should submit them to than any other phobic with their phobia.

Unless we are going to classify religion as mental disability, you do not want to attack the problem from this angle.

scaler24 posted...

LotrMorgoth posted...

i've always wondered, being gay myself, why you would want a cake from a place that hates you

Because they came in looking for trouble. That's what happens when this country makes it so easy for people to sue over anything. In any other country, they would have looked for another bakery and moved on.

They did. You don't have the whole story.
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ZannoL posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Christians, gay or not, presumably have a genuine, yet irrational fear of hell. This fear is no less something we should submit them to than any other phobic with their phobia.

Unless we are going to classify religion as mental disability, you do not want to attack the problem from this angle.

Pretty edgy stuff here, guys.
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The Admiral posted...

ZannoL posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

Christians, gay or not, presumably have a genuine, yet irrational fear of hell. This fear is no less something we should submit them to than any other phobic with their phobia.

Unless we are going to classify religion as mental disability, you do not want to attack the problem from this angle.

Pretty edgy stuff here, guys.

It's absolutely crazy to believe that one will burn in hell for making a cake for two adults who love each other.

The sad thing is that these aren't even kids who believe they will burn for making a cake.

These are grown ass adults.
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My opinion on this is that if they would have made the cake for a different couple then it is discrimination, if they wouldn't have, then it is not. Like if the cake itself supports gay marriage, then sure, they can deny it, if it is just a fairly generic cake that needs to be special ordered then it would be wrong to not make it.
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Ridiculous. They should be able to refuse anyone for the most arbitrary reasons.
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ZMythos posted...

Things that cannot be changed like race, sex, and orientation should be protected over things that can like religion

This wholeheartedly.

Leave politics and religious beliefs out of your workplace.
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