Current Events > Imagine if they dropped Melee from EVO.

(+) Yeah! (+)

And kept Smash 4, or whatever the newest Smash game is at the time (and assuming that said Smash game isn't the "Melee 2" that Melee fans have been wanting for years: a perfect recreation of Melee's mechanics but with more characters).

Theoretically, it's fair to only have one game per series at EVO since having two would (and does) crowd out other games, but the issue with Smash is that there's like zero overlap between the two games because they play so differently from one another. But Melee is so old and reliant on aging hardware--thriving competitive scene notwithstanding--and every other game at EVO uses its newest entry regardless (and it does help that Smash 4's competitive scene is pretty big as well), that I wouldn't be surprised if they one day decided to let Melee go.

Of course, you just know how the Melee fanboys will react to that. Probably throw even more bile in Smash 4's/5's/etc. direction.
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Melee is infinitely more fun to watch than Sm4sh
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They would cry but they'd probably just revive APEX again.
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Solar_Crimson posted...

but the issue with Smash is that there's like zero overlap between the two games

There's 0 overlap with Smash and the actual FGs at EVO.

Mr Wizard is just a fuckboy for some McRibs.
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thompsontalker7 posted...

They would cry but they'd probably just revive APEX again.

Yeah.

"We don't need EVO!"

ManSpread posted...

There's 0 overlap with Smash and the actual FGs at EVO.

Mr Wizard is just a fuckboy for some McRibs.

He's probably going to have to make the choice to only pick one of the games at some point.
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I'd be sort of disappointed but overall I don't think I'd care that much

I don't play at any of these bigger events and in terms of just being able to watch stuff there's plenty of other tournaments that will still be around
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Melee being 2 of 3 until Finals at Evo kinda hurts its credibility a bit. It's a compromise that needs to be made due to time constraints but it's still a reality.

It might happen in the next couple of years, not the end of the world.
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Honestly, the hardware/logistics issue with Melee would actually be a good reason to drop it.

Melee needs both Gamecubes or older model Wiis (since never models removed GCN compatibility) and CRT TVs. Definitely makes it stand out from the other games with newer consoles and flatscreen TVs, and Melee's hardware is becoming increasingly harder to find good.
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They should only be playing Smash 4 since it's the most recent. Give another series some time on stage.
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ManSpread posted...

Solar_Crimson posted...

but the issue with Smash is that there's like zero overlap between the two games

There's 0 overlap with Smash and the actual FGs at EVO.

Mr Wizard is just a fuckboy for some McRibs.

There is an overlap with time because instead of playing the normal timed match, they play stock with no time limit and sometimes matches can go on for a really really long time.

Assuming 99 second matches best 3/5 on 3-rounders, assuming each round goes 2-1 and all 5 rounds get played, that's an absolute worst case scenario of 25 minutes for a street fighter tournament entry and it would be boring as fuck.

I've seen 20 minute melee matches on the regular.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

Solar_Crimson posted...

but the issue with Smash is that there's like zero overlap between the two games

There's 0 overlap with Smash and the actual FGs at EVO.

Mr Wizard is just a fuckboy for some McRibs.

There is an overlap with time because instead of playing the normal timed match, they play stock with no time limit and sometimes matches can go on for a really really long time.

Assuming 99 second matches best 3/5 on 3-rounders, assuming each round goes 2-1 and all 5 rounds get played, that's an absolute worst case scenario of 25 minutes for a street fighter tournament entry and it would be boring as fuck.

I've seen 20 minute melee matches on the regular.

Im saying theres no overlap in the playerbase of Smash and actual FGs.
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Doe posted...

Melee is infinitely more fun to watch than Sm4sh

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ManSpread posted...

Im saying theres no overlap in the playerbase of Smash and actual FGs.

What I'm saying is melee takes so much fucking time that other actual FGs or even just more modern games don't get played because Smash is a fucking time hog in general. If they killed melee they'd have time to fit 2 or 3 other games in its place easy.
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I find Sm4sh more fun to watch. It's a lot less expected, and you pretty much get to see all of the complex stuff they're doing. There's also a lot more mindgames because it's much harder to 0 to death, and it's also more hype when 0 to deaths do happen.

But bad Sm4sh players vs bad Sm4sh player is pretty boring. Melee has a slight better amateur/low seed field.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

Im saying theres no overlap in the playerbase of Smash and actual FGs.

What I'm saying is melee takes so much fucking time that other actual FGs or even just more modern games don't get played because Smash is a fucking time hog in general. If they killed melee they'd have time to fit 2 or 3 other games in its place easy.

You're wasting your time. ManSpread's whole argument is "smash isn't a fighting game". He's not actually saying anything other than that.
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legendarylemur posted...

I find Sm4sh more fun to watch. It's a lot less expected, and you pretty much get to see all of the complex stuff they're doing. There's also a lot more mindgames because it's much harder to 0 to death, and it's also more hype when 0 to deaths do happen.

But bad Sm4sh players vs bad Sm4sh player is pretty boring. Melee has a slight better amateur/low seed field.

Melee in garbage. The whole game is Fox, Sheik, and Marth, with the occasional oddball Captain Falcon or some other stupid pick.

Smash 4 is much more balanced and has a lot more tournament-viable characters.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

Im saying theres no overlap in the playerbase of Smash and actual FGs.

What I'm saying is melee takes so much fucking time that other actual FGs or even just more modern games don't get played because Smash is a fucking time hog in general. If they killed melee they'd have time to fit 2 or 3 other games in its place easy.

Youre not telling me anything i dont alreadyknow homie
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s0nicfan posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

Im saying theres no overlap in the playerbase of Smash and actual FGs.

What I'm saying is melee takes so much fucking time that other actual FGs or even just more modern games don't get played because Smash is a fucking time hog in general. If they killed melee they'd have time to fit 2 or 3 other games in its place easy.

You're wasting your time. ManSpread's whole argument is "smash isn't a fighting game". He's not actually saying anything other than that.

That's not really what he's saying. Well it is, but it's more than that. He's saying there is no overlap between shit like SFV/GG players and Melee players--and he's actually mostly right. Where he's wrong is that Evo WOULD benefit from killing melee regardless because even though PLAYERS don't overlap, a Melee tournament still takes TIME that isn't spent playing other games that people would like to see.
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I thought every fighting game ever was melee related. Am I missing a fighter based solely on projectiles?
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Carlbertomfg posted...

I thought every fighting game ever was melee related. Am I missing a fighter based solely on projectiles?

ARMS?
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they should replace melee with mario kart
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Carlbertomfg posted...

I thought every fighting game ever was melee related. Am I missing a fighter based solely on projectiles?

Acceleration of Suguri-X and Marvel vs Capcom 2.
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halomonkey1_3_5 posted...

they should replace melee with mario kart

Double Dash to be exact
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I would really like this scenario, actually. >_>


Carlbertomfg posted...

I thought every fighting game ever was melee related. Am I missing a fighter based solely on projectiles?

Are you confusing the name "Melee" with the act of melee fighting? The topic is about the game Super Smash Bros Melee specifically, not games that involve close up fighting.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Melee in garbage. The whole game is Fox, Sheik, and Marth, with the occasional oddball Captain Falcon or some other stupid pick.

this is just flatly untrue lmao

Smash 4 is much more balanced and has a lot more tournament-viable characters.

This is true, though, and I'd even be willing to say by raw % that more of a % of Smash 4's cast is semi-viable than Melee's. Melee is about 50/50, Sm4sh is probably more 60/40.
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Does Sm4sh have all kinds of characters winning tournaments or is it still how things used to be where the top tier character (Diddy Kong or Sheik; dunno what it is now, Cloud IIRC?) has a 90% of being the winner
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Doe posted...

Does Sm4sh have all kinds of characters winning tournaments or is it still how things used to be where the top tier character (Diddy Kong or Sheik; dunno what it is now, Cloud IIRC?) has a 90% of being the winner

It's pretty varied. Pretty much the top 15-20ish of the roster have all won tourneys the last year or so I think? Both minor and major. If you see the top 50 players and their mains, it's pretty damn varied
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Doe posted...

Does Sm4sh have all kinds of characters winning tournaments or is it still how things used to be where the top tier character (Diddy Kong or Sheik; dunno what it is now, Cloud IIRC?) has a 90% of being the winner

During the first year, the top characters were generally agreed to be linked to the top players - so your top 3 was Sheik (ZeRo) > Zero Suit Samus (Nairo) > Rosalina (Dabuz). All of those are generally agreed to be Top 5 for the first half of 2017, but there's more in-depth data to work with on the larger scale.

This is a basic interpretation of last month's data:



No character crosses a 10% threshold. Characters that win events tend to be:

-Diddy Kong
-Zero Suit Samus
-Rosalina & Luma
-Mario
-Cloud
-Marth

...But a lot of this is because the top 5 players use these characters. Many consider Bayonetta to be the best in the game, and she has the best results when regional-international tournaments are all considered, but her last significant event win was in September. Cloud similarly never wins solo, with the best Cloud mains having backups, either in the form of Sonic (komorikiri), Donkey Kong (Tweek), and Marth (MKLeo, komorikiri)

Sheik has had a drastic falloff in the last several months. She was nerfed after becoming too centralizing, and this resulted in a lack of reliable, consistent kill confirms, making her a very difficult, stressful character to use in extended tournaments.

Most of the characters on that chart, plus more under "Other", tend to do very well in large tournaments when their best players come out.

I'm mostly talking in the context of majors. In big 250+ events in Kansai or Kanto you'll get a ton of whacky shit.

Basically: The number of characters that win events has upped a bit, but more and more players run secondaries, and a lot of the reason Diddy Kong wins most majors is because his main is head and shoulders above the rest at most events since no other Diddy Kong player can replicate ZeRo's success.
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Panda Global Top 50Rankings (from the PG team) and OrionRank Top 100 (from me and my partner) both demonstrate a pretty wide amount of character diversity, too:

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Panda_Global_Rankings#PGR_v2_.28May_-_December_2016.29

https://www.ssbwiki.com/OrionRank_2016
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I personally wouldn't care. Fun game to play casually, fun to watch as a competitive game, but not one I care enough about.
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ZeRo chokes a lot in the biggest tourneys, but man is his Diddy good. I didn't like people using Diddy when he was OP, but now that he's not, the people who master him are pretty freaking insane at him
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I wouldn't want to see Melee dropped. Melee has better consistent viewership than Sm4sh and helps bump Sm4sh viewership up since a lot of Melee players are willing to tune into Top 8s. Smash 4 got the headline spot this year because it had the most attendance last year, and it's possibly a token of "we're sorry" since Sm4sh in particular (also KI <_<) got treated fairly poorly last year at EVO.

The communities are pretty separate but there are solid spikes of support between the communities. A lot of Melee players tuned into Sm4sh's biggest ever event (Civil War) so I think when the two communities disregard the fanaticism and stick together for a day, it works out well. Removing one game would cause a shitstorm.
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Ugh, Bayonetta is still top? Witch Time was the most obnoxious thing ever added to the game, besides Roaslina's gimmick in general.
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I mean, she hasn't won a big event in forever. But she's probably the biggest regional threat in the game right now and far and away one of the most popular characters. There's a laundry list of Bayonetta players. Probably 20+ notable ones.
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That makes me never want to pick the game back up again jesus christ

I hate everything about her moveset design
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Part of it depends on your region, I guess. SoCal, Pacific Northwest, Rockies, and the Tristate area are pretty lacking in them, but it's Bayo Hell in the South and Florida.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

s0nicfan posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

Im saying theres no overlap in the playerbase of Smash and actual FGs.

What I'm saying is melee takes so much fucking time that other actual FGs or even just more modern games don't get played because Smash is a fucking time hog in general. If they killed melee they'd have time to fit 2 or 3 other games in its place easy.

You're wasting your time. ManSpread's whole argument is "smash isn't a fighting game". He's not actually saying anything other than that.

That's not really what he's saying. Well it is, but it's more than that. He's saying there is no overlap between shit like SFV/GG players and Melee players--and he's actually mostly right. Where he's wrong is that Evo WOULD benefit from killing melee regardless because even though PLAYERS don't overlap, a Melee tournament still takes TIME that isn't spent playing other games that people would like to see.

Where did I say EVO wouldnt benefit from killing Melee? I want it and Sm4sh gone to make time for good Japanese games
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ManSpread posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

s0nicfan posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

Im saying theres no overlap in the playerbase of Smash and actual FGs.

What I'm saying is melee takes so much fucking time that other actual FGs or even just more modern games don't get played because Smash is a fucking time hog in general. If they killed melee they'd have time to fit 2 or 3 other games in its place easy.

You're wasting your time. ManSpread's whole argument is "smash isn't a fighting game". He's not actually saying anything other than that.

That's not really what he's saying. Well it is, but it's more than that. He's saying there is no overlap between shit like SFV/GG players and Melee players--and he's actually mostly right. Where he's wrong is that Evo WOULD benefit from killing melee regardless because even though PLAYERS don't overlap, a Melee tournament still takes TIME that isn't spent playing other games that people would like to see.

Where did I say EVO wouldnt benefit from killing Melee? I want it and Sm4sh gone to make time for good Japanese games

Smash is a Japanese game that is good.
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ManSpread posted...

Where did I say EVO wouldnt benefit from killing Melee? I want it and Sm4sh gone to make time for good Japanese games

You were saying OP point isn't an issue because of zero overlap with players.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

Where did I say EVO wouldnt benefit from killing Melee? I want it and Sm4sh gone to make time for good Japanese games

You were saying OP point isn't an issue because of zero overlap with players.

No I wasnt. You clearly dont keep up with my shitposting about Trash Bros
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> Imagine not subscribing to Manspread's Shitpost Monthly

Last month had a fold out of him literally shitting on every smash disc/cartridge he could find, so let's just say I'm excited for next month's issue.
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DragonPick posted...

> Imagine not subscribing to Manspread's Shitpost Monthly

Last month had a fold out of him literally shitting on every smash disc/cartridge he could find, so let's just say I'm excited for next month's issue.

Published by emp_yoloswag?
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charey posted...

ManSpread posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

s0nicfan posted...

ChromaticAngel posted...

ManSpread posted...

Im saying theres no overlap in the playerbase of Smash and actual FGs.

What I'm saying is melee takes so much fucking time that other actual FGs or even just more modern games don't get played because Smash is a fucking time hog in general. If they killed melee they'd have time to fit 2 or 3 other games in its place easy.

You're wasting your time. ManSpread's whole argument is "smash isn't a fighting game". He's not actually saying anything other than that.

That's not really what he's saying. Well it is, but it's more than that. He's saying there is no overlap between shit like SFV/GG players and Melee players--and he's actually mostly right. Where he's wrong is that Evo WOULD benefit from killing melee regardless because even though PLAYERS don't overlap, a Melee tournament still takes TIME that isn't spent playing other games that people would like to see.

Where did I say EVO wouldnt benefit from killing Melee? I want it and Sm4sh gone to make time for good Japanese games

Smash is a Japanese game that is good.

I mean real talk I'll play Smash casually just to dick around. But the moment people create all these artificial rules to strip away a majority of the games content to turn it into some competitive meme, nah, fuck up outta here with that
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ChromaticAngel posted...

Published by emp_yoloswag?

I'm sure I have an issue where they have an extended interview with Mew2King. And by interview, I mean they tie him down and snap melee discs in front of him, but same thing right?
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Zero_Destroyer posted...

The communities are pretty separate but there are solid spikes of support between the communities. A lot of Melee players tuned into Sm4sh's biggest ever event (Civil War) so I think when the two communities disregard the fanaticism and stick together for a day, it works out well. Removing one game would cause a s***storm.

Man Civil War was fun.
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ManSpread posted...

I mean real talk I'll play Smash casually just to dick around. But the moment people create all these artificial rules to strip away a majority of the games content duebto turn it into some competitive meme, nah, fuck up outta here with that

Pretty much this. I also hate stock matches. Time >>>>>>
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Nintendo really needs to make the next Smash game similar to Melee. Put everyone under one roof.
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pauIie posted...

Nintendo really needs to make the next Smash game similar to Melee. Put everyone under one roof.

That contradicts the point of Smash though. Melee's competitive play puts off the layman and gives them the idea that they'll never be able to play like that and they'll think "why bother?". That's why S4's skill cap isn't as high as Melee's.

I'm all for momentum conserving jumps though.
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pauIie posted...

Nintendo really needs to make the next Smash game similar to Melee. Put everyone under one roof.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
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You can have layman-friendly mechanics (input buffering for example) while still having once-only aerial dodges, wavedashing, faster movement, etc
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