Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 405: We're All Shook Up

(+) Yeah! (+)

Hmm hmm hmmmmm
Hmm hmmmmm
Yaaay yaaaaaaaaaay yay
---

I didn't want to go there...
---

I'm going to put my own views on Punk here instead of a topic that's going to close soon.

I think Punk may have come along at a good time, but his popularity extended well-beyond the initial Summer of Punk. I have no doubt that he'd be a top star in the modern WWE, due to a lack of guys that can promo as good as him while still being a solid ring worker. Because as much as we think that 2011 was just awful in terms of new talent (Miz was the WWE Champion at one point, R-Truth was being pushed as a main eventer, etc) I don't think the influx of indie talent means there was no place for Punk going forward.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Punk is more in that Foley vein on the mic where he isn't as good at talking you into an arena, but his words are so thoughtful and convincing that they stick with you after the show

Which is funny cause my favorite Punk promo came when he literally said "this is the part where I talk them into the building."
---

Lopen posted...

I don't think Punk's in Foley's league for mic work.

Like to me Punk when he's "shooting" is night and day with Punk when he's doing stuff like Straight Edge Society or even when he's post-crisis Cult of Personality Punk. He's only as good as the freedom he's given. Normal run of the mill stuff he's just a standard good talker.

Punk cut an absolutely amazing promo where he didn't have to shoot when him, Cena, and Bret Hart were sharing a ring and he was going full-blown delusional.
---

TheRock1525 posted...

I'm going to put my own views on Punk here instead of a topic that's going to close soon.

I think Punk may have come along at a good time, but his popularity extended well-beyond the initial Summer of Punk. I have no doubt that he'd be a top star in the modern WWE, due to a lack of guys that can promo as good as him while still being a solid ring worker. Because as much as we think that 2011 was just awful in terms of new talent (Miz was the WWE Champion at one point, R-Truth was being pushed as a main eventer, etc) I don't think the influx of indie talent means there was no place for Punk going forward.

Let's not discount that Punk's success is a large part in WHY there's an influx of indie talent

(Probably second behind the legitimacy of MMA robbing WWE of much of their fertile fields of good athletes that didn't quite make it pro)
---

Oh and SES Punk is still my favorite Punk on the mic.

His promo on Raw 900 is THE BEST
---

Although didn't guys like Daniel Bryan and then Tyler Black sign with WWE long before Punk was a thing? Especially Bryan.
---

Re: homegrown

He may have been on the indies but he was in no way a star .

To put it a different way he was signed for his talent and potential and not for his existing starpower like say Roode or Joe or Nakamura or Black or Ohno etc.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Oh and SES Punk is still my favorite Punk on the mic.

His promo on Raw 900 is THE BEST

He had the best insult for jokey Big Show.

"I thought you said something about being entertaining cause that was boring. You're not funny and nobody likes you."
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Although didn't guys like Daniel Bryan and then Tyler Black sign with WWE long before Punk was a thing? Especially Bryan.

Define "a thing"

Bryan signed in '09
Rollins signed in '10

Punk's first cash-in was '08
---

2011.

Punk was largely a midcard jobber for much of late 09 and all of 2010.
---

They haven't really been given much, the face tag team scene has just been so utterly dominated by Gargano/Ciampa.

But I thought they were pretty bad in the Dusty Tag Tournament aside from the finals vs AoP

Okay, if they're not really being put in the spotlight, it makes sense that they aren't that interesting. To be fair, even in NOAH, they only really shined in the big time positions.
---

He's had some pretty good ones here and there even when he's not "shooting." But I hear him in the same kind of conversations as The Rock, Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Jake Roberts, Dusty Rhodes, Chris Jericho, Mick Foley, Kurt Angle, etc.

He's really belonging more in that second tier to me. Guys like Bret Hart, Daniel Bryan, Austin Aries, Piper, Mr Perfect, etc etc. Guys who are generally entertaining or convincing or whatever else, don't ever stumble over their words, and have a few great interviews out there, but aren't the dudes who are killing it every week.
---

I'm not gonna have you sit here and belittle me. Say I've lost sight? I've lost sight of things, John? The reason I say I'm gonna take that and walk out is because I don't fit a certain mold. Because I am the underdog, and that's exactly what you've lost sight of. Earlier in this ring, you mentioned great wrestlers like Eddie Guerrero and you said they used to look at you and say that the kid couldn't hang. And now you stand here and look at me as the kid that can't hang. John, I was hanging off of your gangster car, WrestleMania 22, as it rolled down in Chicago, Illinois, and I stood there in a suit looking as ridiculous as that man looks right now in his suit, holding a phony Tommy gun, and I said to myself someday, I'm not gonna be standing out there watching you in the ring; I was gonna be in the ring watching you go down to CM Punk.

And now here we are in your hometown of Boston. And now next week, we'll be back there in my hometown—Chicago, Illinois. And this...this is the part where I talk 'em into the building. See, you are the one that's lost sight, and I apologize for raising my voice because I'm not that guy. But when you stand here and tell me that I've lost sight, when you, the 10-time Champion who stands for hustle, loyalty and respect; who, from Boston, Massachusetts, lives and breathes these red colors, the same colors as your beloved Red Sox, who also portray themselves as the underdog, I'm sure just like the Bruins portray themselves as the underdog. Just like the Patriots think they're the underdog! Hey, how about those Celtics? Are they the underdogs too?

Here's what you've lost sight of, John, and I'm really happy that your father and your wife are sitting in the front row so they can hear it! What you've lost sight of is what you are, and what you are is what you hate. You're the 10-time WWE Champion! You're the man! You, like the Red Sox, like Boston, are no longer the underdog! You're a dynasty. You are what you hate. You have become the New York Yankees!
---

God dammit, we were talking about Owens and we end up caring more to discuss Punk

Proof of Punk's charisma!
---

Btw Owens is in that second tier too though.

But Owens is probably better in the ring
---

Because the one thing that differentiates Punk from Owens is the long term memorability of specific promos.

In the WWE, what is the truly amazing Owens promo we remember?
---

I think Punk may have come along at a good time, but his popularity extended well-beyond the initial Summer of Punk.

Yes, but he left right as Bryan was getting his push.... meaning he left right before he faced the prospect of having to compete with someone as good as him.
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Because the one thing that differentiates Punk from Owens is the long term memorability of specific promos.

In the WWE, what is the truly amazing Owens promo we remember?

Long narrative promo isn't really Owens style. Wasn't there a good one about his kids being John Cena fans tho?
---

I consider that promo you posted basically Punk being allowed to "shoot" too for the record.

No one gets away with calling Cena on his BS. Just last month Miz had to stand there gobsmacked as Cena shut him up with some canned promo.
---

Eddv posted...

Re: homegrown

He may have been on the indies but he was in no way a star .

To put it a different way he was signed for his talent and potential and not for his existing starpower like say Roode or Joe or Nakamura or Black or Ohno etc.

Ah, see. I'm defining home grown not in terms of popularity but in terms of learning how to wrestle. Like No Way Jose didn't know a single thing before entering the performance center, so he's getting a very different idea than guys like Elias Samson who have learned how to wrestle and continued learning through the years until he got noticed. Like, they didn't have to start him with the basics like they would for Jose.
---

way i see it: nobody's really managed to shoot on Cena the way Punk did and it's not due to any restrictions.
they just weren't as good at it. Owens tried, Miz tried. they were good, Punk did it better.
---

SmartMuffin posted...

I think Punk may have come along at a good time, but his popularity extended well-beyond the initial Summer of Punk.

Yes, but he left right as Bryan was getting his push.... meaning he left right before he faced the prospect of having to compete with someone as good as him.

Well considering how long Bryan wrestled after Punk left... he wouldn't be competing for long.
---

They were definitely restricted

Compare the hell Miz was allowed to unleash on Daniel Bryan on talking Smack vs what he was allowed to use on Cena. Observe all the easy holes to poke in the canned nonsensical yelling tirade Cena gives, and that Cena gets the last word on these two and doesn't on CM Punk.

Like you must be really really down on Miz and Owens if you think they were allowed freedom there.
---

NBIceman posted...

They haven't really been given much, the face tag team scene has just been so utterly dominated by Gargano/Ciampa.

But I thought they were pretty bad in the Dusty Tag Tournament aside from the finals vs AoP

Okay, if they're not really being put in the spotlight, it makes sense that they aren't that interesting. To be fair, even in NOAH, they only really shined in the big time positions.

Yeah - I mean the Dusty Tournament was a chance for them to shine. They beat SanitY 100% and just got...nothing out if it. No push no recognition.

Even SanitY didnt seem to care.
---

Lopen posted...

I consider that promo you posted basically Punk being allowed to "shoot" too for the record.

No one gets away with calling Cena on his BS. Just last month Miz had to stand there gobsmacked as Cena shut him up with some canned promo.

http://botchedspot.com/blog/comic/shooting-on-cena/
---

True story the first and last time I posted a botchspot was to post that after that damn promo
---

I'd also like to point out that the promo I cited was preceded by a long-winded Cena promo, so while Punk was given the last word it wasn't like it was completely one-sided.
---

Eddv posted...

NBIceman posted...

They haven't really been given much, the face tag team scene has just been so utterly dominated by Gargano/Ciampa.

But I thought they were pretty bad in the Dusty Tag Tournament aside from the finals vs AoP

Okay, if they're not really being put in the spotlight, it makes sense that they aren't that interesting. To be fair, even in NOAH, they only really shined in the big time positions.

Yeah - I mean the Dusty Tournament was a chance for them to shine. They beat SanitY 100% and just got...nothing out if it. No push no recognition.

Even SanitY didnt seem to care.

I believe it's cause half of TM61 is out for 6-8 months.
---

I'm trying to think of who else is similar to Owens in promo style

Like, Rock and Flair and Austin and Hogan and Cena are one style, selling the match

Dusty and Foley and Punk and Heyman and Roberts are a different style entirely, selling the angle

Savage is the rare genius that can do both

Owens is more akin to someone like...maybe Raven? All really effective personality stuff to get the character over first and foremost instead of the match or the angle
---

Yeah but the presentation of Punk getting the last word is important

What Punk is and isn't allowed to say to respond is important

I'm not saying Punk isn't good, but yeah, give Miz and Owens as much reign as he had to rip on Cena and they'd do just as well or better
---

Well wasn't Owens first promo cutting down Cena and then planting him with a powerbomb before he could respond?
---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4219mka5zA

This is so unsettling to see Kane speaking with a smile, calmly.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

I'm trying to think of who else is similar to Owens in promo style

Like, Rock and Flair and Austin and Hogan and Cena are one style, selling the match

Dusty and Foley and Punk and Heyman and Roberts are a different style entirely, selling the angle

Savage is the rare genius that can do both

Owens is more akin to someone like...maybe Raven? All really effective personality stuff to get the character over first and foremost instead of the match or the angle

What is HHH's style?
---

I am uhhhh... The Game uhhhh... I've beaten uhhh... them all uhhh...
---

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4219mka5zA

This is so unsettling to see Kane speaking with a smile, calmly.

Jesus Christ is he really using a flame in his logo?
---

I mean there are some who think HHH is a good promo! Not necessarily me but still...
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Well wasn't Owens first promo cutting down Cena and then planting him with a powerbomb before he could respond?

yep.
and it's not like cena didn't have the final word in a later promo either too. cena style feuds tend to be the heel gets the last word in, week or two later cena does it with his usual passionate speech, then the match happens.

but it's very consistent that cena isn't the one who wins on the mic first.
---

I'm also disappointed Joe hasn't gotten more promo time up on the main roster. Guy is a very effective promo.
---

If you want to put it in Jakyl terms: Selling himself.
---

TheRock1525 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I'm trying to think of who else is similar to Owens in promo style

Like, Rock and Flair and Austin and Hogan and Cena are one style, selling the match

Dusty and Foley and Punk and Heyman and Roberts are a different style entirely, selling the angle

Savage is the rare genius that can do both

Owens is more akin to someone like...maybe Raven? All really effective personality stuff to get the character over first and foremost instead of the match or the angle

What is HHH's style?

Zzzzzzzzzz
---

Wanglicious posted...

and it's not like cena didn't have the final word in a later promo either too. cena style feuds tend to be the heel gets the last word in, week or two later cena does it with his usual passionate speech, then the match happens.

The difference is they get the last word because either Cena is not there or Cena is attacked or whatever else.

Punk is the only guy who gets the last word because Cena just doesn't have a way to respond
---

Who cares about Punk? Jake Roberts has them all licked.
---

I was actually just in Knox County this weekend for a con/charity event. Kinda a shifty place, pretty down on its luck.
---

It kinda explains why every significant HHH protege (Orton, Rollins) ends up with the same boring promo style.

Hell, Batista's unintentionally funny promos are mostly cause he broke away from the HHH school of promoing! Good on him.

What about Bray?
---

TheRock1525 posted...

What about Bray?

he just sells your soul.
---

Bray's promos are only as good as the guy writing them that week.
---

I put Bray in the angle selling category. Just less direct.

He talks about himself a lot, but almost always in contrast to his target, to illustrate why they must fall
---

I mean Bray has always been an intriguing promo to me but I always struggle to feel how it relates to wrestling most of the time. Like sometimes it's just nonsense and then occasionally he'll remind us that he's an evil cult leader possibly possessed by a demon who for whatever reason uses his power to be a professional wrestler and I'm just not sure what to think about it.
---