Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 81: LGBT Census-ship Censorship

(+) Yeah! (+)

Pokewars posted...

What's difficult to understand? Some people believe in the right of life that no one can take away.

These people are also frequently pro-war and pro-death penalty so that can't be it.
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Not_an_Owl posted...

"Live begins at conception and we must defend fetuses at all costs and with the full power of government but once you're out of the womb you better pray nothing bad happens to you or you're on your own, f***face." - Republicans

Your actual own post so I dunno why you're complaining. You implied that just because someone thinks the unborn have a basic right to life means Republicans or whoever have to support all these other government programs to ensure they live a grand life.
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I mean the argument is that it's innocent life. People killed in death penalties and war are clearly evil people that need to be killed.
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Kenri posted...

Pokewars posted...

What's difficult to understand? Some people believe in the right of life that no one can take away.

These people are also frequently pro-war and pro-death penalty so that can't be it.

Fair point. I know the hypocrisy of most people who share a pro-life stance. I just know I'm not in favour of either of these things.
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TheRock1525 posted...

I mean the argument is that it's innocent life. People killed in death penalties and war are clearly evil people that need to be killed.

This is why my favorite argument in favor of abortion is that it constitutes self-defense.
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Kenri posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

I mean the argument is that it's innocent life. People killed in death penalties and war are clearly evil people that need to be killed.

This is why my favorite argument in favor of abortion is that it constitutes self-defense.

I mean, one of the top killers of women for thousands of years was childbirth, so it makes sense.
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Pokewars posted...

have to support all these other government programs to ensure they live a grand life.

Actually, that's close to being exactly what the government is supposed to do. It's precisely what people should be expecting of the government. Not handouts, no, but ensuring the best quality of life - absolutely.

And it's pretty much the opposite of what's happening right now. As of recently, the government has:

-Planned new taxes that are beneficial to the rich (who don't need help) and harmful to the poor (who f***ing do)
-Defunded education budgets for already strapped-for-cash public schools
-Targeted pollution and environmental regulations that prevented companies from doing stuff like dumping waste into nearby water sources
-Tried to implement a health system that would obliterate medical care for a lot of people and lead to literal deaths
-Repeatedly attempted to enact legislation that f***s over LGBT people
-Deported as many people as possible, even people who have lived here for decades
-Took bribes from companies to pass legislation that made it legal to sell your internet search history
-Stated their desired to get rid of Net Neutrality (this is a very big deal)

This is off the top of my head. Others in this topic are free to add more. The fact that the majority of the people in government who pushed all this garbage through would immediately turn around and ban abortion for the 'sanctity of human life' is total hypocritical bullcrap.

Like, what is our government right now? What is it actually doing to help people?
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Oh, and a lot of them would also point to religion as a reason why they oppose abortion, despite the fact that they ignore 99% of the Bible except the out-of-context passages they like the most.

I'm not even entirely sure where I stand on abortion, but I'll state with certainty that the biggest argument for abortion I've seen is simply watching the people who oppose abortion.
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The only passages of the bible concerning abortion are actually pro-abortion

Pokewars posted...

What's difficult to understand? Some people believe in the right of life that no one can take away. That doesn't mean you need to use government to support everyone from cradle to grave.

If we are prosperous enough as a nation that we CAN do this, we SHOULD.

I've seen libertarians argue against universal health care because you're presupposing that there will always be enough doctors to satisfy the demand, and thus are advocating that people should be forced to be doctors if there aren't enough.

The thing is, we DO have enough willing people. If we ever don't, we can reconsider.
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KamikazePotato posted...

I'm not even entirely sure where I stand on abortion, but I'll state with certainty that the biggest argument for abortion I've seen is simply watching the people who oppose abortion.

This is never a good argument.
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Once more, abortions account for 3% of the healthcare Planned Parenthood's provides.

Okay, this is kind of ancient by current standards (like a week old?), but I had to post it:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C70oBZTVsAAORsY.jpg
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UltimaterializerX posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

I'm not even entirely sure where I stand on abortion, but I'll state with certainty that the biggest argument for abortion I've seen is simply watching the people who oppose abortion.

This is not a good argument at all. You're the guy always telling me not to judge a video game by its fanbase! =)

The only compromise we'll ever get is "abortions are legal, but pay for one yourself", which I'm okay with. If Planned Parenthood gets no federal funding and women donate to it, that's really the best way to go. People really need to stop the extremist stuff and learn to work together in the middle again.

"extremist stuff"

"what is considered middle in every country except the US"

If libertarianism is the middle, then what is right-wing? Full blown anarchy?

Abortion honestly is always an issue I've felt is a bit of a morally gray area. I could never see myself getting an abortion, for instance.

What sways me on the issue is mostly just looking at results. Making abortion be illegal doesn't seem to have any explicit benefit in studies I've seen. In particular, a 2009 study from the world health organization found that outlawing abortions didn't actually reduce the number of abortions that happen:

http://www.jogc.com/article/S1701-2163(16)34376-6/pdf

So eh, if the same number of abortions are going to happen anyway, might as well have a licenced doctor making sure it's safe.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Eh, I'd say abortion for Republicans isn't "s*** on the poor." They truly believe it's life, or at least a lot them do.

It's one where I'm more sympathetic to the stance, though I will say they are wrong.

Abortions are a very, very small minority of what PP does. Even though the republicans dress it up as being entirely about abortions, it's absolutely not.

That's precisely it. Abortions will happen regardless of legality. So do you want to have loads of dead, sick, or injured women on your hands, or not?
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Abortions are a very, very small minority of what PP does.

Then why doesn't PP stop giving abortions?

The rest of their funding would then be completely safe, and their mission of providing critical non-abortion "womens health" services would be not at all at risk.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Abortions are a very, very small minority of what PP does.

Then why doesn't PP stop giving abortions?

The rest of their funding would then be completely safe, and their mission of providing critical non-abortion "womens health" services would be not at all at risk.

Because then they'd expose that they don't actually care about women's health and that their agenda is 100% tied to abortion
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SmartMuffin posted...

Abortions are a very, very small minority of what PP does.

Then why doesn't PP stop giving abortions?

The rest of their funding would then be completely safe, and their mission of providing critical non-abortion "womens health" services would be not at all at risk.

Because planned parenthood provides health services to women, and abortion, choice or not, is a woman's health service. They shouldn't have to remove an essential health service (forcing women to get much riskier and deadlier abortions) just because Republicans want to slutshame women for not following a 1950s mentality on how to behave.
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"They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!" "They're ripping babies out!"
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SmartMuffin posted...

Abortions are a very, very small minority of what PP does.

Then why doesn't PP stop giving abortions?

The rest of their funding would then be completely safe, and their mission of providing critical non-abortion "womens health" services would be not at all at risk.

................... what? the f***?

because they want to care for women and that especially includes operations that aren't easy for them to do safely in parts of the country that neglect them

because they want to care for women and that especially includes operations that aren't easy for them to do safely in parts of the country that neglect them

So you're saying that abortion actually is a super important offering that is absolutely core to their functionality, then?
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That's importance via other institutions slacking. Ideally abortions should be more accessible.

SmartMuffin posted...

because they want to care for women and that especially includes operations that aren't easy for them to do safely in parts of the country that neglect them

So you're saying that abortion actually is a super important offering that is absolutely core to their functionality, then?

Even if they stopped offering abortions, I wouldn't expect their funding to be secure. The new issue would be contraceptives or something else instead.

Giving in to intimidation tactics would just allow the goalposts to be moved.
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Planned Parenthood should continue providing support for abortions because it's been legal for fifty years and is a significant preventative measure for those women who would inevitably attempt their own abortions without them.
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Gligirl posted...

Ideally abortions should be more accessible.

Then say that. That's a completely different, and nearly exact opposite argument from "why are they so mad? PP doesn't do very many abortions at all!" That's just the dumbest argument ever which betrays a complete and total lack of understanding of the opposition.

If the DMV had a policy of shooting dead every 100th customer, and some people wanted to close them down for that, it would be really really dumb to argue "but shooting people is such a small part of what they do, MOST people just go in and get their drivers license without being shot!"

Opponents of abortion see it as a heinously immoral act, for which every individual instance is an abomination. Argue that they're wrong and it isn't immoral if you want, but arguing "but this organization is good because it only does this horribly immoral thing on rare occasions!" is just idiocy.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Opponents of abortion see it as a heinously immoral act

which is why opponents of abortion are garbage
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Abortion is legal. Those views are 110% irrelevant.

Gligirl posted...

That's importance via other institutions slacking. Ideally abortions should be more accessible.

Ideally!

Unfortunately, these same people defunding Planned Parenthood are also the ones making sure many of these other locations are closed down too. They're deliberately adding restrictions clinics do not pass to shut their doors -- sometimes as soon as the clinic is created -- which isolates Planned Parenthood more and more as an abortion provider. THAT is why their 3% of LEGAL abortion-services is important to keep.

John Oliver explains it more here:

https://youtu.be/DRauXXz6t0Y
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Gligirl posted...

Abortion is legal. Those views are 110% irrelevant.

Not irrelevant if you actually want to convince anyone of anything. But if you just want to insult them I guess it's okay. But surely that's not all you're interest....

which is why opponents of abortion are garbage

lol whoops
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Planned Parenthood wants to offer FULL women's services, not just 97%. It's both important but also not the only service they provide. This should be pretty straight forward.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Gligirl posted...

Abortion is legal. Those views are 110% irrelevant.

Not irrelevant if you actually want to convince anyone of anything. But if you just want to insult them I guess it's okay. But surely that's not all you're interest....

which is why opponents of abortion are garbage

lol whoops

It's not an insult, your personal views don't dictate a country.

Vegans find meat (hell, jellybeans) immoral but that don't mean we gotta make bacon illegal!

SmartMuffin posted...

lol whoops

nope. it's true and I stand by it 100%
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Smuff, your quoting makes it sound like Gligirl insulted people instead of Machete. Please be mindful of your quotes -- we've had enough drama around here from Ulti misquoting Lasa.
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I don't like vegans either
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I mean if you want drama, SmartMuffin basically never graduated from worshipping Rand and that means he has nothing to say that's worth reading or thinking about

Reg posted...

he has nothing to say that's worth reading or thinking about

I've been saying this for years
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Vegans find meat (hell, jellybeans) immoral but that don't mean we gotta make bacon illegal!

No, but if you're trying to convince a vegan to change their mind (which might be a good idea if they comprised half the country and owned more guns than you did), you probably shouldn't make dumb arguments like "it's silly of you to oppose eating meat, because only 2% of meat consumed is from animals with high level intelligence" or something else that completely misunderstands their point of view.

I never once in this topic said that abortion should be illegal. Only that the "abortions are only 1% of PP" argument is hilariously terrible. Because it is. "Everyone who disagrees with me is a horrible person" is actually BETTER, probably. Because at least you've identified the proper point of contention in that case....
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SmartMuffin posted...

(which might be a good idea if they comprised half the country and owned more guns than you did)

LMFAO
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SmartMuffin admitting the American political right is completely antithetical to the idea of civilized society.

I love it

I mean the argument that it's a small part of PP's operation makes a lot more sense because it's making lawmakers the bad guys for wanting hold hostage 97% of women's health care for the 3% they don't like.
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Is there anything in the Bible that says zygotes have souls?
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Opposing Planned Parenthood because 3% of the care it provides is [SOMETHING LEGALLY APPROPRIATE] is stupid. Full stop.

Fighting the legality / morality of abortion itself is fine, go ahead. Fighting Planned Parenthood for following the morals set by the country is not.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Is there anything in the Bible that says zygotes have souls?

sure. go to a random passage and interpret it as meaning precisely that. It's the same process as any other conclusion reached by people who believe in the bible.
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Also, Muffin, one thing you're missing:

I don't think anyone is putting their best foot forward to try to convert pro-life people in this topic. This is, among other things, a space to vent frustration with stances that only do harm in the name of an idea that is inconsistent with reality.

Like, your advice is to be more calm and reasonable, but it's very hard to reason with people who believe what they believe purely out of faith that inherently defies all reason.

You've seen this yourself arguing with leftists who support communism based on nothing other than faith!
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Like, your advice is to be more calm and reasonable, but it's very hard to reason with people who believe what they believe purely out of faith that inherently defies all reason.

No, my advice is, if you're going to bother trying to appear to be calm and reasonable, at least make sure you're coherent and making sense, and that your calm reason addresses the actual point of contention.

The point of contention is the morality of abortion, period. What percentage of PP services go towards abortion is completely irrelevant to this issue. It's the equivalent of me saying, "Why is Dylan Roof in jail? 99.99% of his life wasn't spent murdering people at all!"

If you don't want to reason, and you just want to call people who disagree with you terrible monsters, then fine, do that. But don't waste everyone's time with a horrible attempt at reason that doesn't even address the issue in any tangible way.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Also, Muffin, one thing you're missing:

I don't think anyone is putting their best foot forward to try to convert pro-life people in this topic. This is, among other things, a space to vent frustration with stances that only do harm in the name of an idea that is inconsistent with reality.

Like, your advice is to be more calm and reasonable, but it's very hard to reason with people who believe what they believe purely out of faith that inherently defies all reason.

You've seen this yourself arguing with leftists who support communism based on nothing other than faith!

For example, I wouldn't put any serious effort into trying to convert pro-life people because they are inherently incapable of thinking correctly in situations, so no headway can be made and any effort would be fruitless.

as for calm and reasonable, I won't be doing that with smartmuffin. I save the calmness and reason for people who deserve my respect when they deserve my respect. smartmuffin I'll just say whatever to and won't give a f***.
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