Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 398: Who Gives a Hoot About Impact?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Well, Kevin Dunn hates Cesaro so there's that
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Alpha/Usos main eventing with a dead crowd with cuts backstage to a different storyline. What a weird ass show this week.
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Well see I think the bigger problem is more that when guys are told "no" to something they want to do they don't really try something else. Like yeah turning Cesaro heel, and subsequently telling him to stop swinging, is bad, but not necessarily the end of the world.

Basically I see wrestling as a craft where the best approach is to keep throwing things at a wall and see what sticks. Guys nowadays seem more content to just hit an arbitrary resting point and coast on that. That's partially the writers but I wouldn't put it all on them-- particularly when a lot of guys seem similar to characters they've played in other organizations or their actual personality.
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The arena is emptying... poor 205 live.
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I don't know. A full Pittsburgh crowd probably makes less noise than an empty arena. Seriously, it is #2 behind Corpus Christi for sucky crowds, sans one APWT fanatic.

I will be fair. SD gave you nothing to work with.
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Like uh, Dolph Ziggler and Dean Ambrose are good examples of what I mean.

They're both playing characters that are pretty natural to them and they enjoy them, but I feel like they're just coasting on that. Like Ziggler is getting the opportunity to do something cool by being a heel, but he's not being mandated to change anything up so he's basically just being face Ziggler who attacks dudes with chairs. Which sucks. But if he tried to actually change his character a bit to fit the turn he might actually get over.

Ambrose is goofy crazy guy and doesn't ever really turn that off ever, even when it'd make sense to do so. And I doubt if he said "hey maybe I shouldn't wisecrack here when I really hate this dude" he'd get a huge argument.

I just feel like wrestling like with a lot of jobs is probably more than just doing what you're told-- there's something to be said for trying harder to really knock something out of the park, or pitching new ideas, that isn't explicitly in the job description, that a lot of today's stars seem to lack.
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Strife2 posted...

I don't know. A full Pittsburgh crowd probably makes less noise than an empty arena. Seriously, it is #2 behind Corpus Christi for sucky crowds, sans one APWT fanatic.

I will be fair. SD gave you nothing to work with.

This was NOT a good show lol. Remember 2014 rumble was here in Pittsburgh.
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well lopen, what about.

The KING
of the Cruiserweights.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

Strife2 posted...

I don't know. A full Pittsburgh crowd probably makes less noise than an empty arena. Seriously, it is #2 behind Corpus Christi for sucky crowds, sans one APWT fanatic.

I will be fair. SD gave you nothing to work with.

This was NOT a good show lol. Remember 2014 rumble was here in Pittsburgh.

Yes, we heard you say that you didn't have good shows.
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I think Neville is doing about as well as he can with what's been given which is all you can ask.

I also wouldn't be surprised if he pushed to turn heel since his character before that was super generic.
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And I doubt if he said "hey maybe I shouldn't wisecrack here when I really hate this dude" he'd get a huge argument.

I doubt that a lot.

What part of "scripted" aren't you understanding here? If they wanted him to act differently, they'd tell him to act differently. The fact that he isn't acting differently means they haven't told him to, which means they don't want him to, which means that if he suggested it they'd say "lol no"
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Being told to act one way in the script doesn't mean they're rock solid in their convictions with this. The writers are to a large extent "coasting" too. They're not giving him wisecracks because they think "no he shouldn't be serious here" as much as "we're defaulting to his usual behavior because we're bad at our job" but if Ambrose comes up to them and says "you know, I really don't think this works here" there's imo a better than minimal chance that they'd say "you know what? you're right."
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I think the problem lies solely with Vince.

Vince brought in writers. Writers create a climate of hivemind think. Everyone is encouraged to never break from the script. Those who do are often punished. Therefore, if you keep your head down and follow orders, you'll keep your job.
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i understood 3 words in dar's promo.
and he's totally saying alicia f***s.
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Lopen posted...

I just feel like wrestling like with a lot of jobs is probably more than just doing what you're told-- there's something to be said for trying harder to really knock something out of the park, or pitching new ideas, that isn't explicitly in the job description, that a lot of today's stars seem to lack.

Maybe, but at the same time when you see so many examples of guys who do go the extra mile getting no recognition for it (and maybe even outright scorn), it's bound to be bad for morale. Like if I'm in the WWE right now why should I bother to come up with anything, work hard, connect with the crowd? I know it's not going to get me anywhere that playing along at the bare minimum level will. It might even get me less screen time if the higher ups are worried it might prevent me from being used to properly get their guys over.
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aw, come on, the KING of the Cruiserweights bit is good! i just love how he's rolling with it hard as possible.
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Panthera posted...

Maybe, but at the same time when you see so many examples of guys who do go the extra mile getting no recognition for it (and maybe even outright scorn), it's bound to be bad for morale. Like if I'm in the WWE right now why should I bother to come up with anything, work hard, connect with the crowd? I know it's not going to get me anywhere that playing along at the bare minimum level will. It might even get me less screen time if the higher ups are worried it might prevent me from being used to properly get their guys over.

This should only apply if you're on the top rung already. If you're already among the top guys in the company, yeah, just coast to some extent. Hell this kinda applies to Dean Ambrose so I can forgive him a bit more-- though really he's sorta dropped off. And the funny thing is I think he did because he coasted big time when he had the title. It's kind of a weird environment where you need to go hard on things to convince people you're better than you're being treated, but not too hard otherwise the writers take it as a slight.

But if you're a Cesaro or a Ziggler? Absolutely you wanna try as hard as you can with what you're given, and some of what you're not, unless you wanna be midcard for life.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

eaedwards6400 posted...

Strife2 posted...

I don't know. A full Pittsburgh crowd probably makes less noise than an empty arena. Seriously, it is #2 behind Corpus Christi for sucky crowds, sans one APWT fanatic.

I will be fair. SD gave you nothing to work with.

This was NOT a good show lol. Remember 2014 rumble was here in Pittsburgh.

Yes, we heard you say that you didn't have good shows.

He was talking about crowd noise so I brought up a show that had plenty of crowd noise.

Also, thank you for snipping at me again Scarlet. Appreciate it.
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Lopen posted...

But if you're a Cesaro or a Ziggler? Absolutely you wanna try as hard as you can with what you're given, and some of what you're not, unless you wanna be midcard for life.

If I'm one of those guys I'm thinking that I could turn into some crazy hybrid with the charisma of the Rock, the look of Hogan and the ring skills of Bret Hart and it wouldn't stop me being midcard for life.
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And I'd call you wrong if for no other reason than I've seen these guys do the same thing their whole career.

All the big stars have had a few major character changes before they were a big deal. Heel Cesaro is the same as Face Cesaro - Cesaro Swing. Heel Ziggler is the same as Face Ziggler. You can say "oh they're scripted that way" but then how does AJ Styles do so well while being very distinct from his face persona after turning heel?
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eaedwards6400 posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

eaedwards6400 posted...

Strife2 posted...

I don't know. A full Pittsburgh crowd probably makes less noise than an empty arena. Seriously, it is #2 behind Corpus Christi for sucky crowds, sans one APWT fanatic.

I will be fair. SD gave you nothing to work with.

This was NOT a good show lol. Remember 2014 rumble was here in Pittsburgh.

Yes, we heard you say that you didn't have good shows.

He was talking about crowd noise so I brought up a show that had plenty of crowd noise.

Also, thank you for snipping at me again Scarlet. Appreciate it.

That was a joke. In the words of Eli Drake, "Dummy! Yeah!"
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Lopen posted...

And I'd call you wrong if for no other reason than I've seen these guys do the same thing their whole career.

All the big stars have had a few major character changes before they were a big deal. Heel Cesaro is the same as Face Cesaro - Cesaro Swing. Heel Ziggler is the same as Face Ziggler. You can say "oh they're scripted that way" but then how does AJ Styles do so well while being very distinct from his face persona after turning heel?

Because his face persona had no character.
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Cesaro had no character as a face either! Didn't seem to help him!
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I enjoyed the 4 man elimination match.
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Like basically this whole argument is trying to blame the writers for everything, despite plenty of wrestlers not having the same problems when facing these same writers. Like the writers are too dumb to give Ziggler an actual heel character or Dean Ambrose a character that makes sense for every situation, or Cesaro a character at all, but they create heel AJ Styles out of what was apparently nothing since his face persona apparently had no character?

So are the writers doing everything for characterizing these guys or are the writers doing very little for characterizing them? And if they're doing everything why aren't they doing a better job with most of their main event draws like Seth Rollins and Roman Reigns compared to AJ Styles or even midcarders like The Miz. Just doesn't make much sense!
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Lopen posted...

Cesaro had no character as a face either! Didn't seem to help him!

Cesaro had character, not A character. AJ had neither.
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Lopen posted...

Like basically this whole argument is trying to blame the writers for everything, despite plenty of wrestlers not having the same problems when facing these same writers. Like the writers are too dumb to give Ziggler an actual heel character or Dean Ambrose a character that makes sense for every situation, or Cesaro a character at all, but they create heel AJ Styles out of what was apparently nothing since his face persona apparently had no character?

So are the writers doing everything for characterizing these guys or are the writers doing very little for characterizing them? And if they're doing everything why aren't they doing a better job with most of their main event draws like Seth Rollins and Roman Reigns compared to AJ Styles or even midcarders like The Miz. Just doesn't make much sense!

Again, the answer is not the writers or the wrestlers. It's Vince.
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I disagree with either Cesaro having character or AJ having neither. Not sure which right now.
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You're saying "it's Vince" that creates the atmosphere

I'm saying "how come some wrestlers manage to be compelling in this atmosphere and others don't"

"It's Vince" doesn't work as an answer for that. Nor does "it's the writers."
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I think "It's Vince" DOES work for that!

Vince's peculiarities led to a golden age and then a downturn and then a golden age and then a downturn. Vince runs that company like a dictatorship, so when he eases control, people create characters. When he tightens the grip, only those with a strong connection to Vince or the proven commodities can be flexible. If you don't have access to Vince, you can either do what the writing shows you or not. And if you choose not, most of the time you're going to get a little punishment.
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Elsworth to come out with giant inflatable condoms confirmed.
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So let's see by my tally to name a few... Akira Tozawa, AJ Styles, Neville, Braun Strowman, Luke Harper and The Miz all have Vince in their pocket or are proven commodities.

Cesaro, Sheamus, Ziiggler, Rollins, Ambrose, and Reigns, not so much.

This about accurate or no?
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It was kind of humorous how blatantly *someone* was out to f*** Cesaro for awhile there. You had this guy who was super over, then suddenly he had the most annoying theme song short of Right to Censor (and he still has it!) and was f***ing yodeling
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i blacked out yodeling cesaro from my memory.
god what the f*** was that.
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Apparently, you were able to see us at the very beginning of SmackDown.
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I'm not saying everyone's on even footing. Obviously Cesaro yodeling was dumb-- hell Cesaro turning heel at all at the time was dumb. I'm just saying that to me it's very clear who is making the most out of the interaction with the writers and who is not. And Cesaro is unfortunately in the not category. Shame cause I really like the guy and know he can deliver when in bigger matches, so it'd be nice if he was pushed more, but eh.
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The first 2 seasons of Lucha Underground are now on Netflix.
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Not even making Cesaro a "Heyman guy" did s*** for him, and this was after Streak-breaking Brock I believe.
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Lopen posted...

I'm not saying everyone's on even footing. Obviously Cesaro yodeling was dumb-- hell Cesaro turning heel at all at the time was dumb. I'm just saying that to me it's very clear who is making the most out of the interaction with the writers and who is not. And Cesaro is unfortunately in the not category. Shame cause I really like the guy and know he can deliver when in bigger matches, so it'd be nice if he was pushed more, but eh.

Isn't Cesaro the poster boy for making the most out of the opportunities he's granted? To the point that when he totally kills it in a high profile match everyone gets pissed off because they cool his roll immediately?

ffmasterjose posted...

Not even making Cesaro a "Heyman guy" did s*** for him, and this was after Streak-breaking Brock I believe.

Probably because he would trot Cesaro out and then talk about Brock Lesnar and didn't treat him like he was actually something special.
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It all goes back to Roman's Law (from yesterdays discussion). Cesaro isn't at a level where he can help get Roman over. Brock is. That's why Heyman didn't talk about Cesaro when he should have been, and instead focused on Brock.
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Current order of interest heading into Wrestlemania
AJ/Shane
Bray/Orton (WWE)
KO/Jericho (US)
Cena/Nikki vs. Miz/Maryse
Neville/Aries (Cruiserweight)
Reigns/Taker
Ambrose vs. Corbin (IC)
Sweat Dad/Lesnar (Universal)
Andre the Giant Battle Royale
Bliss vs. everyone (SD women's)
Club vs. Enzo/Cass vs. Sheamus/Cesaro (Raw tag)
Bayley vs. Charlotte vs. Sasha vs. Nia Jax (Raw womens)
American Alpha vs. Usos (SD tag)
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Damn, Rollins/HHH doesn't even get a ranking?

Smackdown was odd. The main event wasn't even mentioned until the end of the show, and it felt like they had nothing better than Usos v Alpha. How many people missed because of the weather? >_>
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ffmasterjose posted...

Not even making Cesaro a "Heyman guy" did s*** for him, and this was after Streak-breaking Brock I believe.

the problem was that they made him a "Heyman guy."
he had no reason to become one. he was over. he had just won the andre the giant battle royale, he was in a tag team with swagger and clearly splitting off as the better wrestler, he had no reason to be heel at that point. it was completely random. becoming that hurt Cesaro, not helped.
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Wanglicious posted...

ffmasterjose posted...

Not even making Cesaro a "Heyman guy" did s*** for him, and this was after Streak-breaking Brock I believe.

the problem was that they made him a "Heyman guy."
he had no reason to become one. he was over. he had just won the andre the giant battle royale, he was in a tag team with swagger and clearly splitting off as the better wrestler, he had no reason to be heel at that point. it was completely random. becoming that hurt Cesaro, not helped.

It also hurt Heyman too, BTW.

The whole appeal of "Heyman guy" was sort of a smark reference to the notion that Heyman had a better eye for talent than the official WWE people ever did, that he was a major supporter of Punk, that he was the only one Brock trusted, etc. And those were like, actual true statements. We can LOL REALITY ERA all we want, but the reason that was appealing is because it was based in reality.

Then, like everything that is good and true, Vince stole it for himself and bastardized it and stripped it of any positive value. Having the writers come up with a obviously in-kayfabe segment where Heyman comes down to the ring and says IM HERE TO ANNOUNCE THAT CURTIS AXEL IS NOW A PAUL HEYMAN GUY is not, even remotely, the same thing that was happening with Punk or Lesnar or whoever.
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https://twitter.com/WWE/status/842074228312559616

I am looking forward to this.
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JONALEON1 posted...

https://twitter.com/WWE/status/842074228312559616

I am looking forward to this.

OK this has serious and hilarious potential


Like at first I thought WWE had finally uploaded some niche old territory that I don't care about, but this is way better.
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Lopen posted...

And I'd call you wrong if for no other reason than I've seen these guys do the same thing their whole career.

All the big stars have had a few major character changes before they were a big deal. Heel Cesaro is the same as Face Cesaro - Cesaro Swing. Heel Ziggler is the same as Face Ziggler. You can say "oh they're scripted that way" but then how does AJ Styles do so well while being very distinct from his face persona after turning heel?

The same thing being getting over? It doesn't really matter if you think they're the same or boring or whatever, these dudes clearly have gotten the crowd on their side repeatedly. Whatever they're doing is working. Are they supposed to just ditch everything people like about them and come up with something new because apparently entertaining people isn't their job? Like sure they could try to reinvent themselves more, but this mentality is the whole problem. Why would a guy like this *want* to reinvent themselves when the only reason they're even in the position to consider it is that they've been shown that the company doesn't seem to want them to try to get over?
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I mean, Austin ALSO got it WRONG with his heel turn.... it's not like every new idea for changing a character that a wrestler comes up with is automatically going to be a winner that works really well.
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I dunno man I don't think Ziggler and Cesaro ever got that over. Like they were loved midcarders but yeah that was about their peak. And it was certainly never their characters that got the reaction.

Also Ziggler has never actually changed his character that's the problem.
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How over does a guy have to get to be considered over in your mind? Bryan or bust? Like what exactly do you want Cesaro to do differently, he was the generic guy, he got stuck with that dumbass yodelling thing, he went white nationalist with Zeb Colter, he's started pretending he's some James Bond porn parody with the suit he rips off, he and Sheamus have developed a pretty distinct dynamic...dude has gone through a lot of phases, added a lot of little minor details here and there, and generally been pretty popular throughout it. He's over based on his ring work, he had a catchphrase people liked (albeit shared with Swagger/Colter) for a while, he has a spot that gets the crowd going every time like Bryan's Yes kicks, I'm not entirely sure what else he can really do short of just not being Cesaro anymore and hoping that Vince likes him more as Wilbert Humperdink
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