Board 8 > Lopen watches and talks about all the Royal Rumbles. And ranks them. TURBO.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Bret/Austin Survivor Series is a great match from his early days in the WWF.
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Royal Rumble 1999

Coming into this Rumble, Austin has a $100,000 bounty on him, and McMahon has forced him into the #1 slot. Commissioner Shawn Michaels forced Vince McMahon into the #2 slot somehow.

I think a walkthrough of the events of this Rumble will say everything there is to be said about this match.

Match starts, Austin kicks the crap out of McMahon. He considers throwing him out, but wants to beat on him more. Golga is #3 and distracts Austin long enough for Vince McMahon to roll out of the ring. Austin tosses him out, but Vince runs the hell away while doing it. Austin pursues him. They brawl around backstage, and Vince leads him into an ambush in the women's bathroom as the Corporation beats the crap out of Austin. Austin is left laying. He's stretchered out to the ambulance, and we watch him get driven out of the arena.

At this point, we're up through #8. You'll note I haven't talked about anything in the ring since #3. This is not me omitting details-- just repeating what was on screen, more or less-- I guess we technically did show Gillberg get eliminated and some flashes of action in between this backstage stuff.

Anyway, so we finally get back to the ring. A few guys have built up. A recently returned Mabel comes out at #11, and clears the ring of literally everyone. *GONG* The lights go out, Mabel's now on the floor, being assaulted by the Ministry of Darkness, apparently having been thrown over the top in the darkness. Undertaker says some inaudible stuff to him, and he's drug to the back.

Road Dogg sits in an empty ring. After Dogg eliminated Gangrel instantly, we're treated to Road Dogg vs Kurrgan for a while. Some more guys build up, we cut to BACKSTAGE again to see Mabel getting put in a hearse or something. We come back to the ring, KANE is the next entry, at #18. Kane eliminates everyone in the ring, then white coats come out to take him to a mental asylum. Kane beats down some white coats. Kane steps over the top rope and eliminates himself, resetting the match for a third time.

Some more dudes come out, Vince McMahon returns to do commentary, and Austin drives an ambulance to the arena and returns. Aside from some Austin chasing McMahon around, there's a decent chunk at this point that is actually something resembling a normal rumble, but the damage has kinda been done at this point. Who could possibly care. Oh and Austin does not sell his stretcher job at all, wrestling this match completely normally.

After no selling the Lo Down to eliminate D-Lo and Bossman, last two are Austin and McMahon. WIRE 2 WIRE. Austin beats McMahon down some more. The Rock comes out and taunts Austin. Vince eliminates Austin. Vince McMahon wins.

Yeah. This rumble is s***.

Royal Rumble Ranking:
1992 > 1997 > 1990 > 1994 > 1996 > 1989 > 1988 > 1993 > 1991 > 1995 > 1998 > 1999

Undercard had the infamous Mankind/Rock match that let Foley permanently hear sea shells near the sea shore for the rest of his life. At least the match was good for most of it and not just a throwaway, but I really think the part that actually messed Foley up was the worst part, and kinda just uncomfortable to watch-- like ignoring that I knew the long term effects and they're unprotected chairshots, getting beaten mercilessly for 5 minutes while handcuffed is just not good. Don't see why they thought this would be a good idea.
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Yeah, that's the Rumble I was asking about earlier.

What a mess.
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That was mostly the Rumble I was thinking about when I said to TUM "I don't remember these Attitude Era Rumbles fondly aside from 1997"

1998 being as bad as it was on a rewatch was more of a pleasant surprise(???) than anything-- did not remember it being that bad. That being said 1999 is on a tier of its own, and was also worse than I remembered it, somehow (mostly because I didn't remember how full of crap it was that WASN'T Austin vs McMahon)
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3. Golga
4. Droz
5. Edge
6. Gillberg
7. Steve Blackman
8. Dan Severn
9. Tiger Ali Singh
10. The Blue Meanie
11. Mabel
12. Road Dogg
13. Gangrel
14. Kurrgan
15. Al Snow

Let's just let the first half of these entrants speak for itself.
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On the one hand that is true

On the other hand I don't think that does enough justice which is why I had to give the summary of the match. Like yeah that's a grim set of entrants, but we've seen as bad in 1993, 1995, and probably a couple of others are close.

It's just an amazing rumble in so many ways. It's kinda amazing to me that Meltzer gave this one 1.5 stars and Rumble 1993 DUD.
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It's the distribution that's so bad here, combined with the fact that you wouldn't expect so many no hopers in the middle of the Attitude Era, where half the roster was getting main event level pops every night.

You expect this out of 1993 and 1995, where half the roster's gimmicks are that they work a second job like racecar driver, garbage man, and hog farmer. Not so much with 1999, where Road Dogg is the only guy of substance for a good 20 minutes.
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Lopen posted...

That was mostly the Rumble I was thinking about when I said to TUM "I don't remember these Attitude Era Rumbles fondly aside from 1997"

Well most of the people I've known that were really into wrestling were either big Austin fans or big Rock fans, and all they cared about was seeing them win, so they liked the Attitude Era Rumbles.

Now, I've already mentioned I didn't like Austin for his first few years, and I really didn't like The Rock for a while either.
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1999 was the most Russo rumble.

Leaving the ring empty that many times is a wrestling crime.
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Yeah it really is hilarious how often someone is entering to an empty ring

It's kind of funny too to imagine how long the Ministry was beating Mabel down before they finally got him in the trunk. What a tank!
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Would kids today even understand what was happening to Kane?
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Lopen posted...

Undercard had the infamous Mankind/Rock match that let Foley permanently hear sea shells near the sea shore for the rest of his life. At least the match was good for most of it and not just a throwaway, but I really think the part that actually messed Foley up was the worst part, and kinda just uncomfortable to watch-- like ignoring that I knew the long term effects and they're unprotected chairshots, getting beaten mercilessly for 5 minutes while handcuffed is just not good. Don't see why they thought this would be a good idea.

According to Foley, Rock got caught up in the moment and gave him more headshots than he was supposed to.

Not cool!
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I don't entirely believe Foley on that. Like he probably doesn't remember the incident very well cause he got bludgeoned so damn much and Rock probably doesn't get too caught up on the details and just says "yeah my bad" cause well he probably feels terrible about it but the problem with assuming Rock just got carried away is that for the finish to work Foley needs to be face down and it's not like Rock hit Foley on the ground. Foley was walking around till the last chair shot.

Granted he may have very well been out on his feet and just not been falling down cause he didn't know any better but yeah I don't know if Rock is all that much at fault there.
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I mean I guess Rock could've done some punches to try and knock him down but at the same time if you're doing that as a finish I feel like a punch being the thing that puts him down half defeats the point. Maybe throw some chairs to the back in there? I dunno.

Like I don't doubt the planned finish was less chairshots but I think Foley staying up forced Rock's hand to an extent. Now that could be "Foley is out on his feet and forgot to fall down" which isn't really either guy's fault (well, it's the fault of whoever came up with the idea, which was probably Foley) or it could be "Foley is caught up in the moment and wants more chairshots" but point is either one isn't really on Rock.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

also you guys love Bret Hart a really odd amount. I like him and all and he's a great wrestler but his character is so lacking compared to the real top guys like Austin, HBK, and the Rock.

Triple post to talk about this a bit since I missed it.

The reason I really really like Bret Hart is that he feels so real compared to other wrestlers. Like with him the whole "sports entertainment" thing is not really an issue. This reflects in both his promos and his wrestling style. He just comes off as very believable, no matter how ridiculous the situation is. I never felt anything from Bret was some canned dialogue that he didn't personally believe no matter his alignment or the storyline he's in.

Even his wrestling is very good in that way. Like, that match with Diesel on Royal Rumble 1995-- Bret kinda dominates the whole match more or less. Never once did I say to myself "you know, Diesel is like a foot taller than him and 150 lbs heavier there's no WAY he could be pushed around by Bret Hart like this--" you bet your ass with any of those three guys I would if the match was that one sided cause their moveset just wouldn't match the opponent in the way where keeping him on the ropes that long would work.

He's just very unique in that way. He never felt like he was "cutting a promo" or "working a match" he felt like a wrestler. I can't really say that's the case with any other main event level wrestler ever except maybe Randy Savage (which is weird to say cause of how off the wall he is, but if you just assume he's a crazy person it's all very internally consistent if we discard the time in the Macho King gimmick). I don't think I would even be a fan of wrestling if not for him.

Put it another way-- name a wrestler that you can say feels like a 100% consistent character between being a face and a heel, yet still manages to be good at both. Bret's really the only one that I feel you can claim this for.
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Yeah I can vouch for that- Bret is basically the reason wrestling is the thing we have today in the US.

In some ways its basically a crime that the industry passed him by.
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It's really very annoying, that while Bret wrestled the safest of styles, he always tried to wrestle through injuries to show his toughness.

He should have been able to go as long as Flair could.
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Ric/Bret was actually the main event of the first show I ever went to come to think of it ( a house show in Pittsburgh right after Flair won the title back from savage).

It was memorable because I ran down to the ramp to try and get the sunglasses but security/my parents stopped me.
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Man, D-Lo, Bossman, Vince McMahon, Austin has to be one of the worst final 4s in a rumble.
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it might be the worst grouping of four people in the ring at the same time in WWE history
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Lopen posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

also you guys love Bret Hart a really odd amount. I like him and all and he's a great wrestler but his character is so lacking compared to the real top guys like Austin, HBK, and the Rock.

Triple post to talk about this a bit since I missed it.

The reason I really really like Bret Hart is that he feels so real compared to other wrestlers. Like with him the whole "sports entertainment" thing is not really an issue. This reflects in both his promos and his wrestling style. He just comes off as very believable, no matter how ridiculous the situation is. I never felt anything from Bret was some canned dialogue that he didn't personally believe no matter his alignment or the storyline he's in.

Even his wrestling is very good in that way. Like, that match with Diesel on Royal Rumble 1995-- Bret kinda dominates the whole match more or less. Never once did I say to myself "you know, Diesel is like a foot taller than him and 150 lbs heavier there's no WAY he could be pushed around by Bret Hart like this--" you bet your ass with any of those three guys I would if the match was that one sided cause their moveset just wouldn't match the opponent in the way where keeping him on the ropes that long would work.

He's just very unique in that way. He never felt like he was "cutting a promo" or "working a match" he felt like a wrestler. I can't really say that's the case with any other main event level wrestler ever except maybe Randy Savage (which is weird to say cause of how off the wall he is, but if you just assume he's a crazy person it's all very internally consistent if we discard the time in the Macho King gimmick). I don't think I would even be a fan of wrestling if not for him.

Put it another way-- name a wrestler that you can say feels like a 100% consistent character between being a face and a heel, yet still manages to be good at both. Bret's really the only one that I feel you can claim this for.

This is going to be a weird freaking comparison but I feel the same way about Tomohiro Ishii
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HBK is overrated.
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LeonhartFour posted...

it might be the worst grouping of four people in the ring at the same time in WWE history

Chris Nowinski, Bradshaw, Trish, and Jackie Gayda.
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That all might be because Bret on some level seems to consider all the wrestling stuff real. There's little line, he straight up sees it as competitive sport
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Jakyl25 posted...

This is going to be a weird freaking comparison but I feel the same way about Tomohiro Ishii

Actually this may surprise you but it isn't weird to me at all

Ishii is my favorite NJPW guy and while i can't exactly claim to be as versed in his career as Bret that aspect definitely plays in His matches have a ton of passion in them and definitely come off as very real in the same sense Bret's do.

Anyway had a really busy day today so took a break-- 2000 tomorrow.
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Yeah, I'd say Ishii's actually a pretty good comp.
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Huh, Ishii screams benoit to me.

I always felt nagata and suzuki were the ones who brought that subtle reality bret has in his matches.
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Benoit and Ishii are similar in that they both look like they hit really hard

I don't think just hitting hard = 'real' though. The spirit is what makes Ishii Bret Hart like not the moveset imo, which isn't really something Benoit ever did particularly well. Benoit was just like, always full speed all the time and any attempts to show charisma were definitely forced.
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Well, Benoit wrestled in NJPW in the early to mid 90s and Ishii is Choshu trained. So they both draw from the same school of wrestling.

Benoit and Ishii aren't just hard hitters, but they have a rather on point selling game, if something looks like it will hurt you for real, they will put the effort to make it look like they're in pain. They're also both undersized and run the same kind of underdog story to their big matches.

Bret and Suzuki on the other hand, both bring a different kind of real, they have some cartoony aspects to their offense here and there sure. But they won't sell something that simply doesn't make sense. Bret in tag matches won't sell a flimsy attempt break up pin attempt, Suzuki won't sell some young boy using weak looking offense. But once you start applying something that has more logical sense to it, that's when they make you look a million bucks.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Man, looks like Stone Cold really had Taker's number in the '90s.

Maybe into the '00s, too, I don't know!

People Taker jobbed to in a 1-on-1 match in the 2000s by pinfall, submission, or match stip
Triple H (SmackDown, July 2000)
Kurt Angle (Survivor Series 2000)
Rikishi (Raw, December 2000)
Steve Austin (Judgment Day 2001)
Booker T (Raw, September 2001)
Rob Van Dam (Raw, November 2001)
Maven (SmackDown, February 2002)
The Rock (No Way Out 2002)
Triple H (Insurrextion 2002)
Kurt Angle (SmackDown, June 2002)
Triple H (Raw, August 2002)
Matt Hardy (SD, October 2002)
Brock Lesnar (No Mercy 2002)
John Cena (SD, April 2003)
John Cena (SD, August 2003)
Brock Lesnar (No Mercy 2003)
Vince McMahon (Survivor Series 2003)
JBL (No Mercy 2004)
JBL (SD, June 2005)
JBL (SD, July 2005)
Randy Orton (SummerSlam 2005)
Angle (No Way Out 2006)
Khali (Judgment Day 2006)
Kennedy (Survivor Series 2006 - First Blood match)
Edge (SD, May 2007)
Batista (Cyber Sunday 2007)
Batista (Survivor Series 2007)
Edge (One Night Stand 2008 - TLC Match)
Big Show (No Mercy 2008)
Jeff Hardy (SD, November 2008)
Vladimir Kozlov (SD, February 2009)
Big Show (SD, April 2009)
CM Punk (Breaking Point 2009 - Submission Match)

There's quite a few that come off as surprising. Also note that while none of them were clean, JBL got to be the first one to beat Deadman Taker and he did it three times.
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ZeroSignal620 posted...

Matt Hardy (SD, October 2002)

I loved this feud.
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The 2010's are much quicker, since Taker's hardly active in them

Taker's jobs in 2010 one-on-one
Jericho (SD, February 2010)
Kane (Night of Champions 2010)
Kane (Hell in a Cell 2010)
Kane (Bragging Rights 2010)
Brock Lesnar (WrestleMania XXX)
Brock Lesnar (Hell in a Cell 2015)
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Yeah, Matt Hardy/Undertaker was one of those feuds that was way better than it had any right to be.
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If you include only the ones where Taker lost clean (no interference, ref shenanigans, dirty hits, etc), you're left with the following...

Angle (No Way Out 2006)
Khali (Judgment Day 2006)
Batista (Cyber Sunday 2007)
Vladimir Kozlov (SD, February 2009)
Big Show (SD, April 2009)
Kane (Night of Champions 2010)
Brock Lesnar (WrestleMania XXX)
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Up
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Will resume this tonight.

Super busy and had no sleep Wednesday. Yesterday I was too tired as a result of Wednesday.

I'm pretty spry today though
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Gotta keep this alive.
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Royal Rumble 2000:

This Rumble was kind of a hybrid of 1999 and 1998. It had shades of the overly gimmickyness of 1999 (Russo was in WCW at this point so we can't even blame him for this one) and it had (half, I guess? you could argue Big Show had a chance) of the utter predictability of 1998.

The 1999 aspect was captured in Kai En Tai and the Mean Street Posse repeatedly coming in to interfere cause they were upset at being snubbed from the rumble. They interfere ike... 10 times. This horse died after one run-in from each (why would they run in again after the first one anyway-- they were thrown out of the ring each run-in so in theory they lost the Rumble even if they were in) and 10 may not be an exaggeration. Taka got a concussion or something in one of the run-ins. Oh and King is a racist and repeatedly calls Kai En Tai Chinese. You've also got all kinds of little gimmicks throughout in the most rigged seeming numbers in Royal Rumble history. This leads to things like the infamous Too Cool spot where the only 3 in the ring are them and they do a dance, and then Rikishi tosses em out. I'd rather the three had dominated the Rumble for a while but I guess that would've been weird.

The 1998 aspect, coming into this Rumble, the story was rar Rock and Big Show are angry at each other. Well there are like, all midcarders until number 20 or so-- I think the only thing that got me at all hyped was Chris Jericho and Chyna but they're out quickly after causing each other to get eliminated. Meanwhile, throughout the Rumble, you have King who is entirely hyped about The Rock, for some reason, saying "hehe when's Rock coming in!?" through the rumble until Rock finally comes in at about 25 or something. The final 4 are of course Kane, Rock, Big Show, and X-Pac. X-Pac does the Stone Cold thing where he sneaks in after being eliminated-- he's promptly eliminated again. Rock wins over Big Show after Kane proves totally irrelevant.

Best thing about this Rumble was Road Dogg's strategy of just sitting in the corner and holding onto the bottom rope. Road Dogg was robbed. Should've won this.

Mixing two wrongs doesn't make a right, it turns out.

Royal Rumble Ranking:
1992 > 1997 > 1990 > 1994 > 1996 > 1989 > 1988 > 1993 > 1991 > 1995 > 1998 > 2000 > 1999

Undercard was pretty bad. Triple H vs Cactus Jack encapsulates everything I hate about Triple H, as he tanks 85 barbed wire baseball bat shots, rips off the handcuff spot from last year, then wins with a pedigree (on tacks, granted, but this match should've been over 10 minutes before it was in Foley's favor). I probably liked the IC Title 3 way between Chyna Jericho and Hardcore Holly more than I should've. The Chyna/Jericho dual champion gimmick was cool-- didn't appreciate her much at the time but the more I think about it the more I think Chyna was underrated imo. There's just something about a woman fighting men and looking credible enough doing it that overcomes the fact that she wasn't a great wrestler or anything, for me.
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Lopen posted...

This leads to things like the infamous Too Cool spot where the only 3 in the ring are them and they do a dance, and then Rikishi tosses em out.

This had me so confused when I first watched this Royal Rumble. I mean, I know that only one of them could have one, but there just isn't any logical reason for them to not team up until the end. Yea I know this kind of thing comes up in plenty of Rumbles, but every time I think the same thing.
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Definitely always been a peeve of mine too. The Steiners and LoD were about the only ones that haven't turned on each other so far of established teams.
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This may seem a bit hypocrital after saying that, but I did find it pretty funny that the 1989 Rumble started with Ax and Smash.
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Ax and Smash fighting each other seems kinda in character I think, so I didn't mind that as much either
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No comment on Mae Young, huh?
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I expected that segment to be bad! Prefer to keep the negativity for stuff that goes above and beyond.

Man this attitude era though.
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I'm not sure too many other things go farther above and beyond than fake elderly nudity intended to gross you out and give Vince a laugh

There is an alternative reading of the segment, that it's a satirical response to all the fans demanding boobs every time a woman is on screen, which I tried to advocate for a long time.

Upon reflection, there's no way that's true <_<
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Also of note: Rock's feet did hit the ground on the final spot, which they actually made an angle out of. Big Show was the rightful winner!
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Jakyl25 posted...

Also of note: Rock's feet did hit the ground on the final spot, which they actually made an angle out of. Big Show was the rightful winner!

I assume that's why The Big Show was in the main event at Wrestlemania 16?

Anyway, would have liked that Rumble at least a little better had Big Show been declared the winner.
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Maybe I've been desensitized to Mae Young and this was one of the worst things Mae Young had done at this point but I mean, yeah, awful segment gonna be awful.
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I think the most important part of this show was the Hardys vs. Dudleys Elimination Tables match, as it lead to the Dudleys getting involved in the Hardys vs. Edge and Christian rivalry.
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