Man I hope that was meant to be a jab at how stupid that video was.
Cause it was.
Though I'm less against the respec thing now that I know they intend to at least give you incentive to not change your skills every area in the form of a buff that accumulates for each boss you kill and increases magic find that resets whenever you respec (among other things).
Like I'm okay with the respec being a feature as long as the optimal way to play is still to make a build that can tackle multiple areas instead of respeccing every area.
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I'm not sure why you value the D2 spec so much, there were very few worth anything and if you fouled one up or were patched out of optimal play, you just had a weekend of Baal runs ahead. Was that really so awesome or difficult? Or am I missing something.
Not really a jab at the video, no.
What did you think of the jars?
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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
There were plenty of viable builds in D2. There will surely be more in this game, which is very good, but being able to cherry pick which build works best for each area was rubbing me the wrong way because if you had that ability in d2 hell would be very easy, as I was saying. Like uh, in diablo 2 unless I'm playing a summon necromancer there are plenty of areas any given build I'll make will have trouble with unless it's hella twinked out because of the immunity system.
Like say I'm a meteorb sorceress I'm going to have a lot of trouble doing say, the countess, cause she's fire/cold immune. But with infinite respecs I could just get to the countess, respec into pure lightning, and kill her in 2 seconds. Just a small example but they exist all over the game. Skill builds having weaknesses was a big part of the reason d2 was actually kinda difficult. Without that you don't have much difficulty left.
Now that I heard about that buff though, I can at least take solace in the fact that if I make a build that can go through most areas I'll have an edge over the scrubs who tailor pick skills for every area. Like I like the idea behind infinite respecs for fun but when they remove the need to have a versatile build/commit to a build at all (over customization makes your characters feel less unique imhhho, not more) then I have a problem.
Also I don't know what jars are. Haven't heard of them. I haven't been super into the hype for this game yet I've just looked at the skill system and characters for the most part.
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Do you consider that Countess scenario to be an enjoyable type of difficulty? Diablo 2 isn't a tough game and you don't need to respec for The Countess, you just need a WW barb to join you.
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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
Not in the countess case in particular, but the general idea behind that concept of difficulty is enjoyable, yes.
For instance my lightning trap assassin has some difficulty with The Pit due to the lightning immune archers, but it's fun using crowd control skills, my shadow master, and my merc to topple one of them and then to domino them all down with death sentry. If I could just respec it'd be easy to just max out wake of fire and crush that dungeon easily, due to the fire immunes there being much less threatening fallen. It'd be easier, but less fun. At the same time yes I could do it that way and ignore the infinite respec system, but I generally don't like to feel like I'm intentionally limiting myself when I play games. It cheapens the experience for me. That's not to say I never do challenge runs but that's generally after I've beaten the game a few times.
Having to compromise from the optimal course of action is part of the fun of any difficulty d2 has. Bringing in a WW barbarian is viable too (though I don't see a ww barbarian coming along and running countess with you if you do it a lot unless you're splitting loot which makes the runs less efficient anyway) but that's fun cause you're playing with a team. It's good that teams work better than individuals in hell.
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Lopen posted... Not in the countess case in particular, but the general idea behind that concept of difficulty is enjoyable, yes.
For instance my lightning trap assassin has some difficulty with The Pit due to the lightning immune archers, but it's fun using crowd control skills, my shadow master, and my merc to topple one of them and then to domino them all down with death sentry. If I could just respec it'd be easy to just max out wake of fire and crush that dungeon easily, due to the fire immunes there being much less threatening fallen. It'd be easier, but less fun. At the same time yes I could do it that way and ignore the infinite respec system, but I generally don't like to feel like I'm intentionally limiting myself when I play games. It cheapens the experience for me. That's not to say I never do challenge runs but that's generally after I've beaten the game a few times.
Having to compromise from the optimal course of action is part of the fun of any difficulty d2 has. Bringing in a WW barbarian is viable too (though I don't see a ww barbarian coming along and running countess with you if you do it a lot unless you're splitting loot which makes the runs less efficient anyway) but that's fun cause you're playing with a team. It's good that teams work better than individuals in hell.
I think that skeleton herding stuff is just a routine exercise after a few Pit runs, and I'll be kind of annoyed if Diablo 3 boils down to the same time MF run to have better MF runs mentality.
I really think Inferno is going to be a test of your abilities and having a decent party, I don't think it's going to be a copy of Diablo 2. I think I'm in good hands though - just picturing what an Act 4 Inferno jar is going to be like... yikes. Good luck respeccing out of whatever madness that ends up being! If you compare the beta to playing through Blood Raven... yeah. Promising!
but if it's just some crummy EZ mode spamfest meant to get people suckling on the RMAH I'll be upset
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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
Lopen posted... Not in the countess case in particular, but the general idea behind that concept of difficulty is enjoyable, yes.
For instance my lightning trap assassin has some difficulty with The Pit due to the lightning immune archers, but it's fun using crowd control skills, my shadow master, and my merc to topple one of them and then to domino them all down with death sentry. If I could just respec it'd be easy to just max out wake of fire and crush that dungeon easily, due to the fire immunes there being much less threatening fallen. It'd be easier, but less fun. At the same time yes I could do it that way and ignore the infinite respec system, but I generally don't like to feel like I'm intentionally limiting myself when I play games. It cheapens the experience for me. That's not to say I never do challenge runs but that's generally after I've beaten the game a few times.
Having to compromise from the optimal course of action is part of the fun of any difficulty d2 has. Bringing in a WW barbarian is viable too (though I don't see a ww barbarian coming along and running countess with you if you do it a lot unless you're splitting loot which makes the runs less efficient anyway) but that's fun cause you're playing with a team. It's good that teams work better than individuals in hell.
I think you're overlooking the "survival" aspect of Diablo 3.
Everything they've talked about has implied that switching builds depending on the situation isn't going to make things any easier in the higher difficultly levels. It's more about the general strategy of staying alive, not getting hit, kiting things around, etc. and less about elements and resistance. Sure, they'll come into play a fair bit I assume, but it doesn't really matter anyway because of the way skills are handled.
Let's use the Wizard as an example. As a Wizard, you aren't going to have to rely on just ICE or FIRE or what have you. You'll have 6 major skills to choose from, and you aren't limited to elemental trees. So if you came up against a Fire/Ice immune countess in D3, you'd just use your arcane magic or whatever else you're using. So I don't think you'll be switching skills very much.
Regardless, the key to remember is that they're balancing the endgame around survivability first and foremost. Notice how much emphasis they're putting on snares and stuns in this game. They really want to give you to the tools to effectively dodge and avoid getting damaged.
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See Silvercross if that's the case that they're really doing that? Yeah, I'm on board. If elements are just for style or the crowd control stuff they bring, and the immunity system has been really toned down as an important aspect? Yeah, should be a better game and tougher.
Nothing has really suggested to me that they are actually doing that, though. Everything I've heard about the difficulty seems like d2 stuff and generic blanket "IT'S TOUGH" hype.
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And yeah I agree that corpse rallying becomes a bit of a grind at some point, but that's why I play hardcore. Helps with that. You totally can die from a unique archer pack if they have nasty mods while herding their corpses, especially if your items aren't particularly good or you''re low level.
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Lopen posted... Also I don't know what jars are. Haven't heard of them. I haven't been super into the hype for this game yet I've just looked at the skill system and characters for the most part.
The ones I opened were basically 60 second horde mode. I dunno if there are other types.
There's also Leoric, who isn't necessarily the hardest guy ever, but will do some damage and is basically D3's Blood Raven. The way the first mini-boss of the act is done is quite a bit different!
Then there's stuff like those ice bombs some enemies use, which are pesky early act 1 normal, but I imagine will be quite troublesome later on. Basically some baddies toss out some timed ice bombs which freeze and damage players. Of course Act 1 normal, people just take the damage/freeze and let the people not in range finish off the enemies. In Inferno, "don't stand in the ice", one can only imagine.
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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
UltimaterializerX posted... The Stone of Jordan was especially hilarious, because rather than actually address the duping issue they openly invited it by creating Uber Diablo.
In a way I actually like how Blizz has handled these situations, allowing the community to define itself in neat little ways.
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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
From: neonreaper | #116 UltimaterializerX posted... The Stone of Jordan was especially hilarious, because rather than actually address the duping issue they openly invited it by creating Uber Diablo.
In a way I actually like how Blizz has handled these situations, allowing the community to define itself in neat little ways.
Sounds like the '' that's not a bug that's a feature! '' that Bioware fans keep spewing regarding swtor issues.
UltimaterializerX posted... Oh and joyrock never even beat Diablo 2 on hell difficulty, so about 95% of people on this board that played 2 have a better-informed opinion of the franchise than him. Including Lopen, who literally beat hell difficulty with a naked character.
Uhhh what? Yes, I did. I never beat the EXPANSION, if that's what you're thinking of.
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
UltimaterializerX posted... Vanilla hell difficulty was a joke, the expansion is when they added all the extra champion monster types and made it one of the hardest games since 2000. And Lopen still beat it naked because Lopen's gamer skill > most.
And yet he still doesn't really have an argument here :)
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!
From: UltimaterializerX | #122 Vanilla hell difficulty was a joke, the expansion is when they added all the extra champion monster types and made it one of the hardest games since 2000. And Lopen still beat it naked because Lopen's gamer skill > most.
it's easy to beat Diablo 2 LOD naked! the game is not really skill intensive. while this is completely separate from this discussion, I do think this is a good reason why skills have to be tied to items, because you shouldn't have some characters not really care about items and others need to care a great deal.
and no I'm not joking, SoJs just became an informal type of currency and Blizzard recognized how people used them. they patched out dupes when they found them. I think they handled it pretty well.
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Eh beating the game naked isn't really all that easy, no. Particularly if you're not a necromancer (which I wasn't I did this with an assassin-- which, to be fair, is probably the second easiest just because corpse explosion gives you viable damage against pretty much everything).
You still need fast reflexes and good use of all your CC/minion skills to not just get smoked in hell if you run into the wrong pack, though. Negative resists suck ass.
And keep in mind I did this in HC.
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OctilIery posted... UltimaterializerX posted... Vanilla hell difficulty was a joke, the expansion is when they added all the extra champion monster types and made it one of the hardest games since 2000. And Lopen still beat it naked because Lopen's gamer skill > most.
And yet he still doesn't really have an argument here :)
Nobody has an argument.
Nobody is arguing.
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Lopen posted... Eh beating the game naked isn't really all that easy, no. Particularly if you're not a necromancer (which I wasn't I did this with an assassin-- which, to be fair, is probably the second easiest just because corpse explosion gives you viable damage against pretty much everything).
You still need fast reflexes and good use of all your CC/minion skills to not just get smoked in hell if you run into the wrong pack, though. Negative resists suck ass.
And keep in mind I did this in HC.
Well yeah I keep that in mind, there is absolutely no point to the discussion if we aren't talking HC. even then
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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
If you think Diablo 2 HC naked is easy could you give me some examples of games/challenges you consider difficult? Have you even tried this or are you just extrapolating based on the difficulty of playing the game normally? I mean, I consider D2 a pretty easy game if you play it normally but if you're not using great gear the difficulty goes way up.
I consider myself someone who enjoys difficult games generally (DMC, Ninja Gaiden, Touhou games) and I would put D2 HC naked pretty high on the totem pole as far as challenges go. Even the necromancer naked I wouldn't put as trivial simply because it lacks any sort of flat defensive skill vs elemental attacks (you have curses but those won't help they snipe you from offscreen) and gets 2 hp per vit meaning you will be very scared by gloams and other things with piercing attacks.
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Lopen posted... If you think Diablo 2 HC naked is easy could you give me some examples of games/challenges you consider difficult? Have you even tried this or are you just extrapolating based on the difficulty of playing the game normally? I mean, I consider D2 a pretty easy game if you play it normally but if you're not using great gear the difficulty goes way up.
I consider myself someone who enjoys difficult games generally (DMC, Ninja Gaiden, Touhou games) and I would put D2 HC naked pretty high on the totem pole as far as challenges go. Even the necromancer naked I wouldn't put as trivial simply because it lacks any sort of flat defensive skill vs elemental attacks (you have curses but those won't help they snipe you from offscreen) and gets 2 hp per vit meaning you will be very scared by gloams and other things with piercing attacks.
You enjoy your needless difficulty, most of us will stick with GOOD games.
(Although barring Touhou since I'm not sure I've ever played them but do enjoy the genre, all the extra games you listed are good - or at least have good installments).
-- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever!