Didn't word it for very well - I meant the movies where it is the case that men are eye-candy in movies tend to chick-flicks (though not always, as I said!), rather than just Pitt and Depp. My point was that when a man is eye-candy in a movie, either a) there's a lot more to his character than that, or b) it's regarded as trash-at-best by most men. Fan-service isn't necessarily sexism for me, unless it defines the character. The characters in Troy wouldn't just be called fan-service and eye candy and nothing more.
Another example would be WWE. Both scantily-clad men and scantily-clad women are heavily featured rolling around on a mat together, but it's quite clearly sexist and has a larger male following by quite a considerable amount. And surprisingly enough, the male characters have loads of fans all around the world and the female characters only really exist to have the occasional bra and panties match, or hallowe'en costume contest.
--
James - Board 8's Resident Warm And Safe, Slipper-Wearing User
& The Cream of Porcupine Tree Fanboyism
Board 8 > Time to read a stupid article about sexism in video games!
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Eeeevil Overlord 04/13/12 9:11:00 AM #51: |
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GANON1025 04/13/12 9:12:00 AM #52: |
Obviously they have to show the new girl's boobs to appease the audience.
what -- You beat yourself up with your past. Don't blame yourself, blame the world. Blame God. Blame me. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Metal_DK 04/13/12 9:20:00 AM #53: |
uh because one is males idealized versions of themselves, while the other is males idealizing women as objects?
Actually its just as bad. Its telling men that in order to be successful, you have to be a certain look (see, Redfield, Jim Raynor post brood war, most western game male protagonist honestly) Do you mean that in a "this is a problem" sense, or are you seriously saying "if you don't like being objectified in an offensive manner then you shouldn't touch an entire medium". If, say, television objectified men a lot and a woman said "Men, don't like sexism? Don't watch tv" you'd probably be pretty annoyed, no? wait. You DONT think television objectifies men? And its just a hypothetical? How about every commercial ever where its some dumb male and having the intelligent woman tell him why hes wrong (honestly it makes the woman look just as bad if they are a couple or dating, since why the hell would a woman want to date an oaf). People in TV know that women watch more TV then men (its true), so they cater to their audiences. There is a reason why the two most popular new shows this season were pretty much 2 Broke GIRLS and new GIRL. Is it wrong that women tend to have larger breasts and have a lot of eye candy in video games? From a moral perspective, ya it probably is. From an economic perspective? Uh, its what sells. Sorry. Its pretty much the same for the entire entertainment business around the world (movies, music, sports, video games, anime, tv, whatever). -- Pride. Passion. Excellence. Metal_DK Currently playing: Sengoku Rance, Starcraft II ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GANON1025 04/13/12 9:24:00 AM #54: |
You think women have it bad? THINK AGAIN. When will MEN be equal?
-- You beat yourself up with your past. Don't blame yourself, blame the world. Blame God. Blame me. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DSAutoResponder 04/13/12 9:25:00 AM #55: |
wow it's almost as if patriarchal attitudes about sexuality is bad not just for women, but men as well!!!!!
but as we all know patriarchy is a myth propogated by the shadow cabal of vicious feminist oppresors that dominate the world governments ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Metal_DK 04/13/12 9:26:00 AM #56: |
You think women have it bad? THINK AGAIN. When will MEN be equal?
if thats what you think my post was about than lol. Its about catering to the audience. I have no problem with how men are depicted on TV because its what is selling right now. Since women are watching more TV than men. -- Pride. Passion. Excellence. Metal_DK Currently playing: Sengoku Rance, Starcraft II ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DSAutoResponder 04/13/12 9:27:00 AM #57: |
pro tip: dont objectify anybody, even if it's a good business decision. thanks
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DeepsPraw 04/13/12 9:29:00 AM #58: |
From: GANON1025 | #054 lololololololol That's about as funny as "reverse racism" -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Eeeevil Overlord 04/13/12 9:36:00 AM #59: |
"wait. You DONT think television objectifies men? And its just a hypothetical? How about every commercial ever where its some dumb male and having the intelligent woman tell him why hes wrong (honestly it makes the woman look just as bad if they are a couple or dating, since why the hell would a woman want to date an oaf)."
To make an inappropriate and inaccurate analogy, that's like a westerner saying "you think Ethiopians have it bad for food? I was out of food the other day and went to the store and it was shut!" It's probably an under-estimate to say that 90% of all video-games are sexist in men's favour. TV's not even close to that bad. That's the kind of hypothetical I was talking about. As far as economically, I don't know if it's necessarily true. Objectifying women might make games sell slightly more to men (although seriously, who's going to buy a game based on the size of a character's chest?) but it'll make them sell far less to women, because it alienates nearly half the population from a lot of the market. -- James - Board 8's Resident Warm And Safe, Slipper-Wearing User & The Cream of Porcupine Tree Fanboyism ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LeonhartFour 04/13/12 9:39:00 AM #60: |
From: Eeeevil Overlord | #059 I dunno, how much do Dead or Alive games usually sell? -- http://img.imgcake.com/leonpngpe.png http://img.imgcake.com/squalloweenpngem.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GANON1025 04/13/12 9:40:00 AM #61: |
Nowadays, 90% of video games probably aren't objectifying since a lot of them are now iphone/facebook games and the such.
-- You beat yourself up with your past. Don't blame yourself, blame the world. Blame God. Blame me. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kinglicious 04/13/12 9:41:00 AM #62: |
Wwe has been changing that actually, we haven't had a bra and panties match in almost 10 years now. Halloween yeah that's stayed, but that day in general is dress like a slut day and I love it for that. >_>
I mean it's not fixed, they still prefer models over wrestlers, but things have and are continuously changing in that company, thankfully. One of the few good things the pg era gave us. As for the guys... There are plenty of female fans out there, and you will hear them all when Orton comes out. Just a raw shrill scream. You'd also be surprised at the number of women. Nothing recent I have, but men are about 60 percent. Women and children make up the rest, and those stats are a year old. They're a notably growing demographic. Your point is gotten mind you, however we represents an evolving version of it : once you have your group in order to get bigger you need a wider audience. To do that, you'll tone down what's offensive. -- The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KingButz 04/13/12 9:41:00 AM #63: |
The existing market[for "hardcore" games] is 90% men anyway.
It's like asking "Why are only women shown in cosmetics advertising?? Why do they mostly make cosmetics designed for women?? They are alienating all of the men!" Men are by biology more competitive than women, which is why they are naturally more interested in sports and games. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png Ok everyone this is Bartz so just remember. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 04/13/12 9:49:00 AM #65: |
From: GANON1025 | #052 Have you ever played Soul Calibur? Taki's entire character is her boobs. If they're gonna replace her with someone, that someone had better have boobs too. -- _foolmo_ 'To be foolmo'd is to be better opinion'd.' - Blairville ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kinglicious 04/13/12 10:01:00 AM #66: |
90 percent? I hope you're counting this in the same vein under 'yes they're attractive but that isn't the focus or really related to the character' as without that group I doubt you'll even get to 20 percent. People like to be attractive and being able to play as someone who is makes perfect sense for a game. That said I don't see how that's sexist in anyone's favor by default. Some games will simply appeal more to a variety of guys than girls even without going into specifics. Fighting and combat is generally male regardless of what's done, and if a female is into it then she's the minority. That said, there's a place for her so that much is fine. I wouldn't even put 50 percent as sexist, just there.
-- The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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AlphaRayAllen 04/13/12 10:15:00 AM #67: |
From: Eeeevil Overlord | #059 Oh please. Are we going to count a woman showing any amount of skin as sexist? -- I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo [NO BARKLEY NO PEACE] ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kinglicious 04/13/12 10:29:00 AM #68: |
Like let's look at genre first of all. It's well established that in anything related to combat, males are the dominant sex by the numbers. This isn't sexist, just general stats. Shooters vary in terms of what women are shown, but in just about all instances it's shown as a badass woman in a man's world, which is fairly accurate to the scenario. Not sexist in either way, just realistic.
Fighting games will have both sexes in provocative clothing, poses and attitudes. Dizzy, meet Johnny. Cammy, meet Vega. Mai,meet iori. Yet you'll have some that aren't anything there, like sakura, milia, or Leona. Of those sakura isn't even attractive. But once again, while you do have sexy people, it's on both ends, and let's not even get into your ash or Bridget. It has a clear sex that prefers the genre, but calling the game sexist is wrong as it isn't. -- The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0ron 04/13/12 10:30:00 AM #69: |
From my experience, girls love RPGs and Fighting games more than other genres, and those are the genres where females (and males) are overly simplified and sexualized and idealized the most.
-- _foolmo_ 'Most people at least try to say something funny. See foolmo's post as an example.' - The Real Truth ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KingButz 04/13/12 10:42:00 AM #70: |
Come to think of it, I can find so many games that aren't sexist in any way at all (I'm not talking about fake sexism that people can find in literally anything).
Just look at Halo, Assassin's Creed, Bioshock, Uncharted (you could make a weak argument for sexism here, but the female characters are smart and powerful despite having some sex appeal), Mario/Kart/Golf/Party/etc, Metroid Prime, Rock Band, Megaman, and the list just goes on and on. Like Foolmo said, it is mostly Fighting games(especially) and RPGs that could be considered sexist. But both of those genres feature female characters that are strong/independent/powerful as much as they do characters that exist for sex appeal. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png Ok everyone this is Bartz so just remember. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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WazzupGenius00 04/13/12 10:46:00 AM #71: |
If you get a girl to play Street Fighter they usually pick Chun-Li or Cammy or one of the other "sexist" girl characters anyway
-- (10:17:09 PM) Ed Bellis: i think pac-man just keeps repeating, for instance (10:17:26 PM) ertyu: ya well tell that to billy michtlle ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 04/13/12 10:47:00 AM #72: |
This topic. Oh my god, this topic. I don't even know where to begin.
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg 'I am the master of your whole keep. I am the pastor, flock you like sheep.' ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kinglicious 04/13/12 10:57:00 AM #73: |
I think we're working on different terms and definitions here.
There's sexualizing, which to simply put is make a character sexually attractive. Everyone generally agrees that this happens to everything. People disagree on where you go from here - is there substance to the character? You'd need to know better than just a glance to tell. There's also the matter of how over the top, is she hot with an outfit made of belts, or are we more subtle? So there's an appearance split too. Usually belt girl won't have substance because her appeal is a sex object. However that isn't always the case, and it's often wrong from the more normal cases, where yes they're hot, but they have actual character. The latter is generally fine. It's also where a majority go, yet people pretend that the minority is how all things are. Being sexist is entirely different. That suggests that the game is doing something to favor one sex while also being unfavorable to the other. I think that's pretty rare. -- The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KingButz 04/13/12 11:06:00 AM #74: |
 OMFG SEXISM IN GAMES -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png Ok everyone this is Bartz so just remember. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 04/13/12 11:06:00 AM #75: |
OH MY GOD TALK ABOUT OBJECTIFYING THAT HARP
-- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg 'I am the master of your whole keep. I am the pastor, flock you like sheep.' ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Jeff Zero 04/13/12 11:08:00 AM #76: |
I wanna play SS again
-- "Later..." <Toonami> <4/1/2012> <Never Forget> ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KingButz 04/13/12 11:12:00 AM #77: |
That was literally in the article as an example of sexism
-- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png Ok everyone this is Bartz so just remember. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 04/13/12 11:15:00 AM #78: |
Anyway this is just part of the huge issue we have in the west now where feminism is trying to criminalize male sexual desire. It's absolutely abhorrent that they're taking it to video games now after they've spent so long railing against it in all other forms of media.
And I'm not saying that media doesn't sexually objectify women in some cases. It happens. But it's nothing in comparison to the way men are portrayed in media. Inept, brutish idiots who care about nothing but beer and sex. We're incompetent at everything from housework to child care. We are solely to blame for the woes of every courageous put upon single mother. But we're supposed to laugh and nod at all of that, and unfortunately by and large we do. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg 'I am the master of your whole keep. I am the pastor, flock you like sheep.' ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Jeff Zero 04/13/12 11:17:00 AM #79: |
From: KingButz | #077 But that harp was a nice harp! I never once thought about it in a dirty way! Oh, society! -- "Later..." <Toonami> <4/1/2012> <Never Forget> ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MegaWentEvil 04/13/12 11:33:00 AM #80: |
Cammy, meet Vega.
But how can anyone find someone that treats ugly people as sub-human and is bloodthirsty hot? ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LeonhartFour 04/13/12 11:34:00 AM #81: |
Shut up, MWE.
-- http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/8/22/2094c2de-bae8-4f5b-9f27-67eaff0aaeaf.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 04/13/12 11:35:00 AM #82: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #078 You've described a sitcom dad. Kind of a big jump to go from that to all men in all media. And that kind of fratboy/manchild stereotype isn't even ubiquitous in sitcoms. -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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IngmarBirdman 04/13/12 11:37:00 AM #83: |
"I raised the point on a press trip dinner last year: how many female characters can you think of that aren’t obviously designed to be sexually attractive to men? Apart from Shepard, no one around the table could suggest a single one."
Clueless. Anyone who's actually played enough video games to be writing about them should be able to name ~20 without breaking a sweat. Watching too much porn can lead to a perception that women are nothing more than sexual objects rofl -- Parachute? Moar liek pair-a-somethin' else amirite SuperNiceDogTanuki, Pom Poko ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 04/13/12 11:47:00 AM #84: |
From: IngmarBirdman | #083 That's obvious hyperbole, but it's true that porn warps people's ideas of sex. A combination of porno, absinence only education and apprehensive parents have lead to teenagers thinking their partners will be totally okay with unusual acts like anal sex and facials. -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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HeroDelTiempo17 04/13/12 11:48:00 AM #85: |
From: KingButz | #074 not even as good as the one who is actually a man -- http://img.imgcake.com/AitchDeeTee/panicdancegifta.gif http://backloggery.com/herodeltiempo/sig.gif ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 04/13/12 11:56:00 AM #86: |
From: DeepsPraw | #084 oh here we go! -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "You're only smoke and mirrors tonight." ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MegaWentEvil 04/13/12 11:57:00 AM #87: |
Shut up, MWE.
Or, you could just use the ignore button instead of replying to my posts. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KingButz 04/13/12 11:58:00 AM #88: |
Believe it or not ExTha, most girls would prefer not to do either of those.
-- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png Ok everyone this is Bartz so just remember. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 04/13/12 11:58:00 AM #89: |
From: IngmarBirdman | #083 Seriously. I can think of 20 just from the few Final Fantasy titles I've played. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg 'Every day that I get better, I watch as you get worse.' ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 04/13/12 11:59:00 AM #90: |
From: KingButz | #088 I really don't know how you feel comfortable speaking for 'most girls'. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg 'If you've ever doubted me you don't have a clue, I'm here to show the world.' ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LeonhartFour 04/13/12 11:59:00 AM #91: |
From: MegaWentEvil | #087 Or you could just stop posting altogether. That way, everybody wins. -- http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo22vfguji1qzxr43.gif ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KingButz 04/13/12 12:03:00 PM #92: |
Ok, most girls I know.
And I'm sure I could find evidence backing that as a general thing -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png Ok everyone this is Bartz so just remember. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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AlphaRayAllen 04/13/12 12:04:00 PM #93: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #090 How do you feel about having things shoved in your ass? -- I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo [NO BARKLEY NO PEACE] ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Metal_DK 04/13/12 12:04:00 PM #94: |
ulti is wrong tons of times (lol ron paul if hes still on that bandwagon), but hes right here. Extha too.
pro tip: dont objectify anybody, even if it's a good business decision. thanks Sadly, doing that will mean "you will go out of business". You want to know why animes like Outlaw Star (a very popular anime in the USA) never got a sequel? Because in japan is sold like ****. Why? Because its not kawaii or moe or whatever the hell people use to describe anime these days. To make an inappropriate and inaccurate analogy, that's like a westerner saying "you think Ethiopians have it bad for food? I was out of food the other day and went to the store and it was shut!" It's probably an under-estimate to say that 90% of all video-games are sexist in men's favour. TV's not even close to that bad. That's the kind of hypothetical I was talking about. If anything it would be more like comparing starving people in the USA (which there are quite a few) to Ethiopians. TV might not be "as bad" as video games because video games are still much more male driven. Women watch more TV than men, but its still something like a 60/40 skew in favor of women. As much as we constantly read about "how female gamers are growing more and more", i really dont see it at the purchasing level. I worked at a Target for two years and a Gamestop for a year, and (im estimating here a tad) id say women made up for about 10% of the sales. -- Pride. Passion. Excellence. Metal_DK Currently playing: Sengoku Rance, Starcraft II ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 04/13/12 12:07:00 PM #95: |
From: KingButz | #092 If we're doing the anecdotal evidence thing, every single girl I've been with has loved facials and asked me for anal. From: AlphaRayAllen | #093 Are you stupid? -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg 'If you've ever doubted me you don't have a clue, I'm here to show the world.' ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 04/13/12 12:07:00 PM #96: |
From: ExThaNemesis | #090 I'm not either, but there are people that do. I won't post links, since the website has an "18 or over" age verification (nothing explicit though), but advertising maven Cindy Gallop has made a website around the idea of "Make Love, Not Porn". I suggest you google it. -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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thundersheep 04/13/12 12:08:00 PM #97: |
Sexism is definitely still a huge problem in Western society (the fact that it's worse in other places doesn't mean it isn't bad here), but the problem with this article is that video games are the LAST place they should be criticizing. Movies, TV, print ads, commercials, etc. are all much, much worse. Not to mention Bioware is probably the BEST company out there at writing good female characters who aren't just damsels in distress or a one-dimensional love interest for the hero. Women ****ing run **** in the Mass Effect universe, and there are a ton of great female characters in the Dragon Age series as well. The fact that they actually hire a female voice actress and record every line for the main character twice is a huge deal as well that most companies wouldn't even think of doing since they know most of the players will be male.
The problem with this article is that female characters being attractive and female characters being sexist are two incredibly different things. -- http://soundcloud.com/thundersheep/lunatic-asylum http://soundcloud.com/thundersheep/summer-rain ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KingButz 04/13/12 12:08:00 PM #98: |
ExTha that's easy for you to say when you've been with exactly 0 women.
-- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png Ok everyone this is Bartz so just remember. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 04/13/12 12:08:00 PM #99: |
From: KingButz | #098 Oh silly me I thought you were here to discuss things like an adult. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg 'I am the master of your whole keep. I am the pastor, flock you like sheep.' ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ExThaNemesis 04/13/12 12:09:00 PM #100: |
From: DeepsPraw | #096 This does sound like something that masses of brainwashed feminists, trained to repress their own sexuality, would eat up. -- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg 'Every day that I get better, I watch as you get worse.' ... Copied to Clipboard!
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