From: SmartMuffin | #249 Honestly, look back at the all time greats. Think of which ones are highly respected, and which ones are mainly hated. Then think which ones put people over, and which ones hogged the spotlight and made it all about them. Those two sets match up almost perfectly. All the greats, and I include Foley AND Rock in this, *never* hesitate to put someone over when necessary.
Austin might be the one guy that defies this rule, although it's different than hogging the spotlight. He was willing to put over most anyone if it made business sense, but he did flat out refuse to do some jobs (Triple H in 1999 and Lesnar in 2002 most notably) that he felt weren't good for business.
EDIT: Taker is more respected than damn near anyone too, and he rarely puts anyone over, although I have to believe that it's not him demanding anything and just creative deciding that his character should be protected. You NEVER hear stories of Taker using his backstage clout for anything beyond getting extra time off.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
Jakyl25 posted... From: SmartMuffin | #249 Honestly, look back at the all time greats. Think of which ones are highly respected, and which ones are mainly hated. Then think which ones put people over, and which ones hogged the spotlight and made it all about them. Those two sets match up almost perfectly. All the greats, and I include Foley AND Rock in this, *never* hesitate to put someone over when necessary. Austin might be the one guy that defies this rule, although it's different than hogging the spotlight. He was willing to put over most anyone if it made business sense, but he did flat out refuse to do some jobs (Triple H in 1999 and Lesnar in 2002 most notably) that he felt weren't good for business.
EDIT: Taker is more respected than damn near anyone too, and he rarely puts anyone over, although I have to believe that it's not him demanding anything and just creative deciding that his character should be protected. You NEVER hear stories of Taker using his backstage clout for anything beyond getting extra time off.
of course, Austin did a q and a recently and stated that he wish he had done the Lesnar match
Q1: 1.05 rating - Dixie Carter and Sting addressing events with Robert Roode at the end of Victory Road Q2: 1.15 rating - follow-up to the opening segment, first-half of a four-way X Division match Q3: 1.08 rating - second-half of the X Division match, the first of three Repo Games segments, the first-half of ODB & Eric Young vs. Sarita & Rosita Q4: 1.16 rating - second-half of the Knockout Tag Title match, backstage segments and video packages Q5: 1.18 rating - James Storm's mid-ring promo and superkick to Bobby Roode's lawyer Q6: 1.00 rating - Kurt Angle-Garett Bischoff three-minute challenge Q7: 1.04 rating - TNA Tag Title match, Hulk Hogan backstage, more Repo Games Q8: 1.05 rating - Storm vs. Daniels & Kazarian in a handicap match and Dixie Carter bringing out Hulk Hogan to tease a GM change
Remind me again why they pay Hogan so much?
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
The boxing titles are at least lineage-based like pro wrestling titles, but they're different because the sport is actually real (*cough*). Although even then I'd say that sometimes it does cheapen things. When someone retires as Champion, it weakens the next Champion's argument that they are the best in the world at their weight class, when there was someone else already established as such that they never beat.
In pro wrestling, I would argue that no Championship has ever been strengthened by a vacancy, and in the vast, vast majority of cases, vacancy weakened the title. Sure, a title tournament culminating at Backlash 2000 might have been a fun time, but then when Rock wins, it cheapens the value of his reign since he never beat Foley for it, so then we don't truly (in kayfabe) know if he's BETTER than Foley and thus the best wrestler in the world.
Except in wrestling and sometimes boxing, titles do change hands and you might be the best one night and not the best another night. Rock and Mick Foley exchanged the title. Rock and HHH exchanged the title. Keep in mind that some of the best boxing matches in history were series between two guys where each of them won a bout.
You can't really argue about how it would tarnish the title, especially when heels retain the title via cheating. I mean, does anyone think less of the title when JBL was escaping time and time with questionable victories? Was JBL the best wrestler in the world while he held the title, or was he simply the best at keeping the title?
Rock has victories over Mick. Mick has victories over Rock. The title is never about being the best in the world and always about who's better that night. And that's how it is in the WWF/E because it's the only way that makes sense. It's why guys cheat. It's why guys weasel their way in and out of victories. The Miz was never the best in the world, but he was damn good at making sure he didn't lose his championship.
I'd go with you on the whole "tarnish the championship" thing if every WWF/E match was a clean, competitive bout where the better man won. But it's not. Therefore, I don't see why a vacancy by Foley would do ANYTHING to tarnish the belt. On the flip side, you get an absolutely great moment for Foley that I'd remember for years to come.
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
From: TheRock1525 | #255 Rock has victories over Mick. Mick has victories over Rock. The title is never about being the best in the world and always about who's better that night. And that's how it is in the WWF/E because it's the only way that makes sense. It's why guys cheat. It's why guys weasel their way in and out of victories. The Miz was never the best in the world, but he was damn good at making sure he didn't lose his championship.
But that's what it's SUPPOSED to mean though, and that's why we're supposed to be so outraged when a heel cheats. Yes, it does only mean "the best in the world on that particular night" but still, it's about being temporarily the best in the world!
This is why Vince is so anal about the whole "it's not a belt" thing. The belt is just a material representation of the concept of the best wrestler in the world. You aren't truly fighting "for the belt," you're fighting for the TITLE. The belt is not the title, "WWE Champion" is the title. And when someone like Miz tarnishes that title by weaseling his way through his reign, it's supposed to sicken us.
Now I will 100% grant you that WWE has by-and-large forgotten this concept many times, and they've often turned the the belt into a meaningless MacGuffin for dudes at or near the top of the card to fight over. No argument there.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
Not really. Eddie's role in my sig has nothing to do with his skills as a wrestler.
Daniel Bryan in the OTHER line of my sig, on the other hand... <_<
But no, people cheating to hold onto the strap bothers me as a mark but not as a smark. It's what's best for business, as part of the pathos play that is professional wrestling, the ultimate theater in the round. You can't have a hero if you don't have a villain, and the greed and avarice that drives such villains to underhandedly cling to their titles is a proven winner as a plot driver.
And to be honest, Eddie's reign was fairly clean, aside from the Goldberg interference which assisted his original win (but did not seal it!)
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
Just like Floyd Mayweather clocking what's-his-face in his last match where he clocked the guy trying to hug him.
Legal? Yes. Questionable means of winning? Yes. If Floyd wanted to prove he was the best, why not straight up fight him instead of taking what was a cheap (but legal) shot?
-- TheRock ~ Slow dramatic zoom-pan. Doesn't phase the hooded man. "You have issues." - MWC. Pot. Kettle.
Being smarter than your opponent is part of being better than them in the ring.
It's like points fighters in MMA: people say they suck because they're not actively trying to finish the fight, but an established way of winning is via decision. It's how the sport works.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
nothing questionable about the boot. O_o if you're wearing a shirt and you get out of a move by slipping out of it, more power to you. outsmarting your opponent =/= questionable, and that's what he did in that particular match.
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The King Wang. Listen up Urinal Cake. I already have something that tells me if I'm too drunk when I pee on it: My friends. - Colbert.
To use a real-life example of where the clothes make the fighter, take consensus top-5 MMA lightweight Shinya Aoki. Unlike most MMA fighters, he wears full tights when he fights, for traction on his submissions to help them lock in more tightly. Many organizations (mostly American ones) do not allow for such clothing to be worn in the ring, but in the promotions where he normally fights, it's not against the rules.
If WWE ever makes it retroactively illegal to be barefoot in the ring, the Samoans are toast!
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
Jakyl25 posted... To use a real-life example of where the clothes make the fighter, take consensus top-5 MMA lightweight Shinya Aoki. Unlike most MMA fighters, he wears full tights when he fights, for traction on his submissions to help them lock in more tightly. Many organizations (mostly American ones) do not allow for such clothing to be worn in the ring, but in the promotions where he normally fights, it's not against the rules.
If WWE ever makes it retroactively illegal to be barefoot in the ring, the Samoans are toast!
not to mention the only still alive von erich brother, kevin von erich
I actually have no problem, as a mark, with people weaseling victories, even in title situations. I love brains over brawn.
Now if they get their victories through a manner of cheating that doesn't require any smarts at all, like Vickie pushing a foot off the rope, then yeah, my mark side is upset about that.
Anyway during Smackdown tonight, I noticed under the piped-in boos you could still hear Daniel Bryan chants during his promo with AJ. I don't know if it's good or bad for his future that people keep cheering him.
-- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1417/nighthawks1575201136223.jpg
Rad Link 5 posted... I actually have no problem, as a mark, with people weaseling victories, even in title situations. I love brains over brawn.
Now if they get their victories through a manner of cheating that doesn't require any smarts at all, like Vickie pushing a foot off the rope, then yeah, my mark side is upset about that.
Anyway during Smackdown tonight, I noticed under the piped-in boos you could still hear Daniel Bryan chants during his promo with AJ. I don't know if it's good or bad for his future that people keep cheering him.
the crowd is making noise for a wrestler they had plans for.
so it doesn't matter what kind of noise it is and it's good for him.
So Evan Bourne broke his foot in four places apparently >.>
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Not changing this sig until the Bengals, Bills, Browns and Lions win the Super Bowl (10/10/10) The most American Canadian on Board 8 - #9 Bro on Board 8
So I had an idea on where this AJ title shot thing might lead.
Say Daniel Bryan loses to Sheamus at Wrestlemania. He's no longer World Heavyweight Champion, and there goes his gimmick, right? But wait! Daniel Bryan makes sure AJ wins the Diva's Championship, and as soon as the match is over, he grabs the belt and heads for the top rope, shouting "YES! YES! WORLD! DIVA! CHAMPION! YES!" And now whenever he comes out, he's holding the Diva Championship, with AJ following tepidly behind him.
This made more sense in my mind when I thought AJ was getting her title shot at Wrestlemania, but then I remembered there's that celebrity match instead. Now I'm starting to wonder if they've forgotten altogether that he told AJ she would be the number one contender if she won both her matches.
-- Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police http://i40.tinypic.com/avgffm.jpg
Johnson has committed to appearing at next year's WrestleMania at MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford, N.J. In what role, he hasn't said.
It's clear if the WWE wants to squeeze another potential blockbuster buy rate out of the Rock, the last man standing to get the headline match would be the return of former WWE and UFC heavyweight champion Brock Lesnar.
How about it: Brock vs. Rock at WrestleMania 29?
"I'm not saying a thing," said a laughing, grinning Rock, eyebrow raised. "I didn't say anything."
The Rock silenced. That's a first.
Well I guess we can rule that one out now.
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
When it first started happening they basically had a couple weeks there where Cole was basically reading Wikipedia verbatim about the cultural significance of the bikes. Did you doubt WWE's crack team of researchers? <_<
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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. http://bryandanielson.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo3.jpg
From: Jakyl25 | #299 When it first started happening they basically had a couple weeks there where Cole was basically reading Wikipedia verbatim about the cultural significance of the bikes. Did you doubt WWE's crack team of researchers? <_<
I bought the idea that the bikes existed and were culturally significant, but the thought that two grown Hispanic heterosexual men would ride around like that never once occurred to me.
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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/