Board 8 > Obama says his religion influences his policies [dwmf]

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_foolmo_
'he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance' - ertyu quoting Tidus

i like to think of him as a


fool

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Evolution really isn't like gravity. We can't make predictions about future evolution, and we cannot test it on a macro level.

As for the fossil record, can the fossil record distinguish between evolution and periodic acts of direct species transformation by God?
We have stuff like 100+ animal phyla appearing in a 30 million year period 500 million years ago, and zero since. Well, can you be sure that they appeared gradually over that 30 year period, and didn't all appear on a single day? No, because our dating of fossils that old and the completeness of the fossil record is not nearly good enough.

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Phase posted...
I say P != NP with the axiom of choice, independent of ZF without the axiom of choice) Regardless of your opinion there's plenty of discussion no matter your position. At worst, I'd be skeptical of someone who had a really strong position on the matter without a good knowledge of it.

Does anyone really believe that P=NP though?

The problem is there are actually a surprisingly large amount people out there that don't believe humans could have evolved from a "lower" form of life.

This is definitely the case. Not every creationist denies macroevolution, but the amount that do are definitely significant (I would guess the majority).

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The fossil record is one of the weakest parts of the case for evolution though. Genetic evidence is much better.

Fossils are just gravy. We're lucky we have any at all.

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Connecticut Huskies

If you're going that far, there's so many ways to explain fossils and such. God could've just made animals gradually if he wanted. Or whatever, he's God, so he can do whatever.

The point is that it's literally pointless to argue, and the only thing that matters is that you don't let irrelevant crap influence your policies.

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_foolmo_
'Most people at least try to say something funny. See foolmo's post as an example.' - The Real Truth

There are lots of people that understand the real definition of evolution and still don't believe in it. Yes, there are people that confuse abiogenesis with evolution but by no means does that account for everyone who disbelieves in evolution.

It's like Creationism. Yes, there are many people that believe that God created the universe and set the natural laws in place and then let things run their course. But there are still people that believe the Earth is literally ~6000 years old too.

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From: Phase | #149
The problem is there are actually a surprisingly large amount people out there that don't believe humans could have evolved from a "lower" form of life.

As I understand it, Creationists believe that the world has only existed for like 5 thousand years or so? Something like that?

One possibility is it's less that they believe humans CAN'T evolve from monkeys as much as they humans DIDN'T evolve from monkeys, because it would be impossible in such a short timespan.

Another is that while we can clearly see evidence of short-term cases of evolution, it gets a lot more uncertain when you're talking about going from an ape to a human. It's possible Creationists believe that such a dramatic evolution is impossible, in any amount of time.

Especially when you factor in the belief that every human has a soul, and all that stuff, humans are extremely unique, and I wouldn't say it's ridiculous to believe that tons of species have been created through evolution, but humans necessarily had to be created by a higher power.

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_foolmo_
'he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance' - ertyu quoting Tidus

There are young Earth creationists and old Earth creationists.

The old Earthers tend to be pretty flexible about science.

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do the old Earth ones believe humans were created by God?

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_foolmo_
'You are obviously intelligent and insightful' - Sir Chris about me

red sox 777 posted...
Evolution really isn't like gravity. We can't make predictions about future evolution, and we cannot test it on a macro level.

As for the fossil record, can the fossil record distinguish between evolution and periodic acts of direct species transformation by God?
We have stuff like 100+ animal phyla appearing in a 30 million year period 500 million years ago, and zero since. Well, can you be sure that they appeared gradually over that 30 year period, and didn't all appear on a single day? No, because our dating of fossils that old and the completeness of the fossil record is not nearly good enough.

To address the second point first, no, we can't test that. (okay, we actually DO have better resolution than that but to my knowledge it's worse than +/- 1 million years) We also can't test that God isn't mystically enforcing gravity only when people are looking and half-asses to the point where we can't tell whenever we're not, so it's more or less a useless point of discussion.

As to the first point, it is my understanding that we have shown significant mating isolation and genetic drift in organisms with a fast turn-around time. (ie. insects and bacteria)

As I understand it, Creationists believe that the world has only existed for like 5 thousand years or so? Something like that?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never found a person that attended any post-secondary school (including JUST seminary school) that believed that, so I've always taken that to be an extreme outlier opinion. Like, every creationist that I know believes the earth is older than that and I know some just outright don't believe in speciation of any form.

Does anyone really believe that P=NP though?

It's something like 5-10%. I know for certain it's higher than the number of people that suspect it is indepedent of current axioms, which is a pretty reasonable position in my opinion. (that's like 1% IIRC)

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From: foolm0ron | #160
do the old Earth ones believe humans were created by God?

They aren't really united on anything other than "the Earth is older than the Bible says", so yes, some do believe God created humans specifically. Others believe in abiogenesis and only think God was responsible for setting the universe in motion. There's a lot of diversity.

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From: LordoftheMorons | #155
Does anyone really believe that P=NP though?

Probably all the guys who don't want to believe they are wasting their lives trying to prove it true and become famous

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_foolmo_
'he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance' - ertyu quoting Tidus

Also, I don't think a lot of people know that the current pope's positions on some of these things are

-the age of the Earth given by scientists is legit
-the fossil record is legit
-evolution is compatible with Catholicism

So, yeah, there's no reason for most people to recoil the way they do.

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IIRC, Protestants hate the Pope

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_foolmo_
'To be foolmo'd is to be better opinion'd.' - Blairville

Well, yeah, but the point is that most people assume the pope would be vehemently against those things. They even rejected Intelligent Design!

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To address the second point first, no, we can't test that. (okay, we actually DO have better resolution than that but to my knowledge it's worse than +/- 1 million years) We also can't test that God isn't mystically enforcing gravity only when people are looking and half-asses to the point where we can't tell whenever we're not, so it's more or less a useless point of discussion.

Well, we can test gravity with a lot more precision and in a lot more situations. The difference is many orders of magnitude. The fossil record is rather funny in showing that evolution tends to happen in bursts, with often long periods of minimal change. Now, this isn't too surprising because it makes sense that evolution would occur rapidly in response to changes in environmental conditions, and would not occur when the environment stays the same, but it does mean that we have an awfully hard time distinguishing between bursts of evolution and instantaneous direct species transformation.

As to the first point, it is my understanding that we have shown significant mating isolation and genetic drift in organisms with a fast turn-around time. (ie. insects and bacteria)

Yes, but that's not really what people are looking for- people are interested in a common ancestor evolving into chimpanzees and humans, or lions and tigers, and stuff like that. Actually, people probably care about humans more than anything else.

From dust you were created, and to dust you will return. Hmm.....it's not clear to me why it would be less honorable to be created from a chimpanzee that was created from another animal that was ultimately created from dust, than from dust directly.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
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foolm0ron posted...
and I'm way more intelligent than any of you.

WTF?

Did you seriously just try to claim that? How did you come to that conclusion?

Credentials, NAO.

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Damn I forgot metroid posted here, that's just unfair

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_foolmo_
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honey bunches of oats

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you also forgot that guiga posts here

he has like a really high IQ or something as I recall

From: OmarsComin | #172
he has like a really high IQ or something as I recall

Above-average, I think

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_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram

foolm0ron posted...
IIRC, Protestants hate the Pope

We don't hate the Pope. We just don't see him as the pinnacle of Chrisitianity, the final word on any issue, the head of the church, or any of that stuff. He's just the Christian in charge of the Catholic Church.

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foolm0ron posted...
Damn I forgot metroid posted here, that's just unfair

Oh quit whining. The point I'm trying to make is that credentials don't win you a debate.

For instance, Phase's posts in this topic are pretty clearly more intelligent than my posts in this topic. I'm actually learning stuff from them (hadn't heard the "independent of current axioms" argument--that's a pretty neato idea).

And perhaps I out-credential Phase, but it really doesn't matter. Even if I do, Phase has clearly done more research and is more up-to-date and informed about these subjects than I am, and is doing a better job of articulating the concepts. THAT is what matters, not credentials.

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Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision

I think I always go back to Cap'n Crunch and if I were to be shot tomorrow, it's the last cereal I'd want to eat before going to Juggalo Heaven

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Yeah I guess Phase does know a lot about stuff that isn't relevant to the topic at hand. Teach me your ways, Sensei!

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_foolmo_
'It's easy to get yourself in trouble if you start quoting people who don't like you in your signature' - Mods