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Board 8 > League of Legends Topic 34 - "Next time, try to leave a dent."

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Biolizard28
01/21/12 7:42:00 PM
#101:


So who else has been paying attention to IEM Kiev?

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Forceful_Dragon
01/21/12 7:44:00 PM
#102:


but not really hard to zone when she pushes.

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TheConductorSix
01/21/12 8:46:00 PM
#103:


Do not mistake me for thinking she's invincible in every matchup.

But she dominates alot of matchups. GP being a very good one now that you mention it. His strength has always been his chain slow and speed up and ranged attack. Kayle matches him go for go with that. I exchange Q for Q all day because my Q is followed up by my E.

Now, the biggest problem is the one you mentioned earlier: pressing E pushes lanes accidentally. So the only time I can safely harass is when the creep wave is already thinned and my clearing the last 1-2 creeps won't over push me.

Getting Wriggles is when it gets kinda bad because I can randomly proc on minions and that's Sivir like pushing.

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red13n
01/21/12 9:13:00 PM
#104:


http://www.own3d.tv/live/21229

Streaming.

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Forceful_Dragon
01/21/12 9:44:00 PM
#105:


From: red13n | #104
http://www.own3d.tv/live/21229

Streaming.


new game starting.

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Gwindor
01/21/12 10:18:00 PM
#106:


I've lost, like, 20 games in a row or something

And I know I'm terrible, probably the worst player on the board

but why do I keep getting enemies that are better than my allies

and not just a little bit better. A lot better. All my losses seem to do is give me worse allies, instead of worse enemies.

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Forceful_Dragon
01/21/12 10:43:00 PM
#107:


From: red13n | #104
http://www.own3d.tv/live/21229

Streaming.




Played a couple ranked 5s on stream, won both.

Now red and I are duo Q'ing.



edit: our 2 pick instant locked Jungle Eve

well then =P


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TheConductorSix
01/21/12 10:51:00 PM
#108:


Red took an early Q on Tristana...

never take an early Q on trist lol. It's pointless when your burst on W+E is so high

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Gwindor
01/21/12 11:00:00 PM
#109:


it helped him last hit under the turret a lot.

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X_Dante_X
01/21/12 11:00:00 PM
#110:


From: Gwindor | #106
And I know I'm terrible, probably the worst player on the board

i will fight you

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Forceful_Dragon
01/21/12 11:18:00 PM
#111:


1 more duo Q match starting.

I know our 2 pick and he's almost 2.1k ELO so this should be a good game, in theory <_<

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Gwindor
01/21/12 11:45:00 PM
#112:


That game was really good to watch.

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Forceful_Dragon
01/21/12 11:49:00 PM
#113:


From: Gwindor | #112
That game was really good to watch.




Yess hype people to watch the stream =P

But what made it good?

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Forceful_Dragon
01/21/12 11:52:00 PM
#114:


Anyways red and I are Q'd up once more for the night.


Also chris is reading pokemon fan fiction on stream.

It's getting pretty weird.

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Gwindor
01/21/12 11:57:00 PM
#115:


everyone played really solid, and I felt like I was able to learn something. There were a few times where my "run" feelings were going off, but you guys were able to stick around because you could rely on your teammates. Also, watching Red farm is pretty worthwhile.

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Forceful_Dragon
01/21/12 11:59:00 PM
#116:


From: Gwindor | #115
There were a few times where my "run" feelings were going off, but you guys were able to stick around


This is very much a learned behavior. Eventually you do so many things that don't quite work you become acutely aware of just how much you can take. And my last 3 deaths I guess are good examples of dying for a good cause since we won the fights each time.

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TheConductorSix
01/22/12 2:38:00 AM
#117:


How to go from 1400 to 1250 elo in one day.

Pick Pantheon. Go Top. Win lane vs. idiots who don't know how to play against pantheon. Watch as team doesn't understand how mid game snowball pantheon works. Try and explain. Get yelled at. Lose. Repeat 6 times in a row.

I should have quit after 3 losses straight but I'm a masochist.

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TheConductorSix
01/22/12 2:40:00 AM
#118:


Quick Question:

If Pantheon's Q proc'd like GP's did, how high in Tier 1 would he be?

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 2:42:00 AM
#119:


From: TheConductorSix | #118
Quick Question:

If Pantheon's Q proc'd like GP's did, how high in Tier 1 would he be?


Proc crit you mean?

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TheConductorSix
01/22/12 2:55:00 AM
#120:


pardon me.

If it was like Ezreal's Q where it proc'd on hit effects so Bloodthirster would proc on Spears.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 4:16:00 AM
#121:


He'd be much better, yes. I'm not sure if he'd be top tier, but certainly pretty good.

Now, if it could crit normally? Yeah, instant tier 1 and instaban.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 8:02:00 AM
#122:


For those who missed it, the ESL Kiev tournament has concluded. All the best teams in the world showed up to kick ass, but a new challenger stepped in and DEVASTATED the competition. Team Moscow 5 (M5) yielded only a single game in the whole tournament, losing the second game in the Grand FInals to Team SoloMid, curbstomping literally every single time. Among other things, they played Mordekaiser mid, AD Kennen, and Shyvana both top and in the jungler. Their solotop, Darien, proved himself an unbelievably dominant force by, of all things, AFKpushing then going to farm enemy jungle. It worked. They shut down everybody, and won themselves a very well-deserved crown, as well as showing themselves to be the team to beat. Not bad for the new kids on the block, eh?

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Biolizard28
01/22/12 9:37:00 AM
#123:


No disrespect to M5 intended, but their opponents all played like their brains are on cruise control.

M5 wins games by f***ing over as many of the enemy players as possible.

Jungler? Constant creep and buff jacking
Solo top? Give your solo top a buff and make that lane an uphill battle.
Mid? Blue donations because Lee Sin and Shyvana can afford it.

Nobody but TSM even entertained the idea about warding their own jungle. In the final game, top lane Shyvana stole golems five times with no opposition from Rain Man and red, I don't know, two or three times.

I'm not saying I could do better. God no. I'd sooner rage quit than deal with my s*** being stolen so often.

The take away from this tournament is basically that if you treat jungling like a farmfest and not something to get aggressive or forge a proper defense over, you deserve to get your s*** kicked in by teams like M5.

PS: People crying for Shyvana nerfs should step it up.
PSS: AD Kennen is a joke gone too far.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 9:40:00 AM
#124:


From: Biolizard28 | #123
No disrespect to M5 intended, but their opponents all played like their brains are on cruise control.

M5 wins games by f***ing over as many of the enemy players as possible.

Jungler? Constant creep and buff jacking
Solo top? Give your solo top a buff and make that lane an uphill battle.
Mid? Blue donations because Lee Sin and Shyvana can afford it.

Nobody but TSM even entertained the idea about warding their own jungle. In the final game, top lane Shyvana stole golems five times with no opposition from Rain Man and red, I don't know, two or three times.

I'm not saying I could do better. God no. I'd sooner rage quit than deal with my s*** being stolen so often.

The take away from this tournament is basically that if you treat jungling like a farmfest and not something to get aggressive or forge a proper defense over, you deserve to get your s*** kicked in by teams like M5.

PS: People crying for Shyvana nerfs should step it up.
PSS: AD Kennen is a joke gone too far.


AD Kennen is insanely legit, because Kennen has brutal antipersonnel defenses and bullies you out of lane for free with level 3 W. He's still better as mage, but has the stats to be a legit carry, with his free poke, massive stuns, and great AS.

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Biolizard28
01/22/12 9:43:00 AM
#125:


From: KanzarisKelshen | #124
He's still better as mage


That's really all that needs to be said, isn't it?

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 9:46:00 AM
#126:


From: Biolizard28 | #125
That's really all that needs to be said, isn't it?


Do you think Gangplank should never solotop, perchance? How about sticking Udyr in jungle only?

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Biolizard28
01/22/12 10:04:00 AM
#127:


From: KanzarisKelshen | #126
Do you think Gangplank should never solotop, perchance? How about sticking Udyr in jungle only?


You're putting words in my mouth.

There's nothing AD Kennen can do that AP can't except

- Deal better AD damage. (There are better options than Kennen)
- Deal better damage with W's passive (Once every five attacks)

You pick AD Kennen when you really want to play Kennen but already have a top and a mid. It's functional, but that doesn't mean it's optimal.

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Gwindor
01/22/12 10:14:00 AM
#128:


The analysis on LoL general forums was that m5 picked teams that didn't need mana, which gave them the advantage. Is that accurate?

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 10:23:00 AM
#129:


From: Gwindor | #128
The analysis on LoL general forums was that m5 picked teams that didn't need mana, which gave them the advantage. Is that accurate?


Bull****. I posted an analysis of the two games they won that came down to three bullet points. I can link you to them if you're curious.

From: Biolizard28 | #127
You're putting words in my mouth.

There's nothing AD Kennen can do that AP can't except

- Deal better AD damage. (There are better options than Kennen)
- Deal better damage with W's passive (Once every five attacks)

You pick AD Kennen when you really want to play Kennen but already have a top and a mid. It's functional, but that doesn't mean it's optimal.


Or you want an AD character that wins lanes for free and has considerable teamfight CC...which no other AD carry has, incidentally. Ashe doesn't have it because it's initiation CC, and lol at everybody else except Vayne with her short stun.

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Phase
01/22/12 10:45:00 AM
#130:


Biolizard28 posted...
You're putting words in my mouth.

There's nothing AD Kennen can do that AP can't except

- Deal better AD damage. (There are better options than Kennen)
- Deal better damage with W's passive (Once every five attacks)

You pick AD Kennen when you really want to play Kennen but already have a top and a mid. It's functional, but that doesn't mean it's optimal.

I haven't watched IEM (since I doubted anything interesting would happen), but from what I can gather, M5 won because of extremely aggressive counter-jungling.

If that's the case, I can immediately tell you you are looking at the problem in the wrong way. The question you shouldn't be asking is "is AD Kennen better or worse than AP Kennen?", it's "what do I sacrifice by having AD Kennen instead of a conventional AD carry? Is there a way to overcome that disadvantage? What do I gain from having AD Kennen instead of a conventional carry? Is there a way to exploit that advantage?"

If you take that in the context of counter-jungling things like "map control", "strong early and mid game", and "gank-resistance" start popping out.

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LamdaMax
01/22/12 10:46:00 AM
#131:


I've seen comparisons that make Kennen look pretty appealing as an AD carry.
-Kennen W at max rank deals +80% AD every 5 attacks (in magic damage) while Caitlyn's headshot for example deals +50% every 6 at max level.
-Supposedly Kennen's Q serves as an autoattack reset for some reason, which no other AD carry besides Sivir has.
-Better escape than any other carry besides perhaps Tristana
-Better base attack speed than every carry (tied with teemo if you count him). Keep in mind that AS increases are percents of the base, so differences in base AS end up being multiplicative. Also good natural AS per level.
-And, of course, stuns all over the place.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 10:49:00 AM
#132:


From: Phase | #130
Biolizard28 posted...
You're putting words in my mouth.

There's nothing AD Kennen can do that AP can't except

- Deal better AD damage. (There are better options than Kennen)
- Deal better damage with W's passive (Once every five attacks)

You pick AD Kennen when you really want to play Kennen but already have a top and a mid. It's functional, but that doesn't mean it's optimal.

I haven't watched IEM (since I doubted anything interesting would happen), but from what I can gather, M5 won because of extremely aggressive counter-jungling.

If that's the case, I can immediately tell you you are looking at the problem in the wrong way. The question you shouldn't be asking is "is AD Kennen better or worse than AP Kennen?", it's "what do I sacrifice by having AD Kennen instead of a conventional AD carry? Is there a way to overcome that disadvantage? What do I gain from having AD Kennen instead of a conventional carry? Is there a way to exploit that advantage?"

If you take that in the context of counter-jungling things like "map control", "strong early and mid game", and "gank-resistance" start popping out.


And of course, the whole 'CC usually unavailable to AD carries, of industrial-grade strength, plus super strong base values for abilities'. That's what Bio isn't getting, too - what you give up for Kennen are Vayne, Graves and Trist's steroids. The issue is, characters like Ashe and Caitlyn function without steroids themselves. So, you don't really give up much.

From: LamdaMax | #131
I've seen comparisons that make Kennen look pretty appealing as an AD carry.
-Kennen W at max rank deals +80% AD every 5 attacks (in magic damage) while Caitlyn's headshot for example deals +50% every 6 at max level.
-Supposedly Kennen's Q serves as an autoattack reset for some reason, which no other AD carry besides Sivir has.
-Better escape than any other carry besides perhaps Tristana
-Better base attack speed than every carry (tied with teemo if you count him). Keep in mind that AS increases are percents of the base, so differences in base AS end up being multiplicative. Also good natural AS per level.
-And, of course, stuns all over the place.


Ashe can reset with W, IIRC, and Corki might be able to reset with R. But yeah, Kennen is very good if you can avoid exploding when doing AD.

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OctilIery
01/22/12 11:08:00 AM
#133:


From: KanzarisKelshen | #132
Corki might be able to reset with R.


Nope.

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Peace___Frog
01/22/12 11:10:00 AM
#134:


Huh. Interesting.

I wanted to follow, but couldn't find replays anywhere.

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Anagram
01/22/12 3:35:00 PM
#135:


Aw yeaaaaa just got my first pentakill.

In a bot game for the IP bonus.

Still.

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Silver_Ermine
01/22/12 6:29:00 PM
#136:


Anagram posted...
my first pentakill.

In a bot game


Nothing to see here folks.

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Heroic_CactObo
01/22/12 6:53:00 PM
#137:


so I'm playing dominion, right

They first pick yorick and I'm like "well crap I'll go sivir then and counter" then they second pick sivir and I'm like "CRAP." Nobody else on my team wants to bot so I last-pick ahri, but we got screwed on the rest of the picks too

So it's singed/shyvana/graves/GP/Ahri(me) versus yorick/sivir/akali/heimer/lee sin

I'm thinking we're screwed. So I go bot thinking I need to hold my own VS heimer and hope we have good players up top. I'm doing fine but I keep listening to my team get slaughtered. I figure I need to make a difference. I get aggressive on the heimer and start pushing him back. I proceed to kill him and push the creeps to the tower by the time he gets back and push him off of it completely and just take it. My team is still dying top like mad.

I guess Heimer got tired of the matchup so him and yorick tag teamed so I had to faceoff against him next. He's kinda fed and he's building typical yorick build and he wasn't bad, but I out-skirmished him to death and take the point. I got a creep advantage so that he had to use his ghouls to keep the creeps busy while I kept hitting him with Q/W. I'm getting more attention because I have to defend their bottom point against him AND sivir moments later with half health and proceed to double kill them on their point. They've built up a pretty big lead at this point but the fact that we have 3 points means we're ticking away at it and every moment I hold, the more of their lead we cut into.

Akali comes down to push me off finally but not before we kill each other, so she didn't take the point. I decide we can't win like this so Shyv and I switch off so I can go top and help out with damage and we just beat them up and take the windmill to get our control point advantage again. At that point nobody can stop me so I take bot a few more times before we win 64-0

I got some respect "carry" mentions in the post-game chat and the opposing heimer friended me
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Heroic_CactObo
01/22/12 7:10:00 PM
#138:


Yeah I've never gotten a penta, but I did get 2 quadras in 1 game though. Like 5 total, but that's it
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Biolizard28
01/22/12 7:13:00 PM
#139:


Guys

You know I was jungling Shyvana before the motherland, right?

Right?

;_;

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 7:14:00 PM
#140:


I...didn't actually. How'd it work?

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mcflubbin
01/22/12 7:15:00 PM
#141:


Apparently my brother and his team beat Phreak and some guy he was duoing with in a normal game recently. He was so proud of himself.

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Biolizard28
01/22/12 7:18:00 PM
#142:


Well, I only jungle with Shyvana when playing with some B8ers, but she's pretty much the only jungler I like these days.

I just know that the second I pick her again, people will be like "OH MAN HERE WE GO THIS DIAMONDPROX WANNABE GOING TO FEED ALL GAME"

And that wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't mean I'm going to get judged for all of my actions.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 7:20:00 PM
#143:


From: Biolizard28 | #142
Well, I only jungle with Shyvana when playing with some B8ers, but she's pretty much the only jungler I like these days.

I just know that the second I pick her again, people will be like "OH MAN HERE WE GO THIS DIAMONDPROX WANNABE GOING TO FEED ALL GAME"

And that wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't mean I'm going to get judged for all of my actions.


Solution: solotop shyv.

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Biolizard28
01/22/12 7:22:00 PM
#144:


Then they'll be wondering why I'm not invading their jungle when my turret is pushed all the way in.

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SythaWarrior
01/22/12 7:24:00 PM
#145:


Jungle Shyvana is pretty weak even after Kiev. Tons of people including FD, Myself, 90% of the people who use Shyvana period and random free weekers all did jungle Shyv well before this tournament. Shyv needs a team with a lot of CC on it already also there are definitely champions that can 1v1 her either long enough to have your ally come in and kill her or kill her themselves. I mean it's fun and she is definitely super fast and is a hyper carry late game. But there are kinda conditions you need to make it work.

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KanzarisKelshen
01/22/12 7:25:00 PM
#146:


From: Biolizard28 | #144
Then they'll be wondering why I'm not invading their jungle when my turret is pushed all the way in.


Yeah, but it's a start!

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Biolizard28
01/22/12 7:27:00 PM
#147:


From: SythaWarrior | #145
Jungle Shyvana is pretty weak even after Kiev. Tons of people including FD, Myself, 90% of the people who use Shyvana period and random free weekers all did jungle Shyv well before this tournament. Shyv needs a team with a lot of CC on it already also there are definitely champions that can 1v1 her either long enough to have your ally come in and kill her or kill her themselves. I mean it's fun and she is definitely super fast and is a hyper carry late game. But there are kinda conditions you need to make it work.


Shyvana's conditions are lanes with good CC.

In a CC heavy meta.

You'd have to try not to have a lane or two with some kind of stun or snare, or at least a ridiculous slow.

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SythaWarrior
01/22/12 7:41:00 PM
#148:


Soraka+Ez/Cait/Kog/Corki/Vayne/Trist/Twitch/Sivir/Graves bot lane Basically all the AD carries lack Hard CC cept Ashe and Kinda Vayne (You wont land this in a jungle gank most likely.)

Morde and I'm sure a lot more AP Carries have meh CC.

Top lane you have guys like Olaf, Irelia (needs lower life then other person to have CC.), etc.


It's actually not as Heavy CC as you would think. It's just Bot lane is typically packing a Sona or a Janna and Morgana/Sion are like the two most popular mids.

I commonly play games with like 2 slows, a snare, a charm, 1 supression and a couple silences.

Cait
Skarner
Garen
Soraka
Ahri

If you remove Caitlyn for say a Sivir and Garen for Wukong you get even less CC.

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Phase
01/22/12 8:00:00 PM
#149:


So it's singed/shyvana/graves/GP/Ahri(me) versus yorick/sivir/akali/heimer/lee sin

I'm thinking we're screwed. So I go bot thinking I need to hold my own VS heimer and hope we have good players up top. I'm doing fine but I keep listening to my team get slaughtered. I figure I need to make a difference. I get aggressive on the heimer and start pushing him back. I proceed to kill him and push the creeps to the tower by the time he gets back and push him off of it completely and just take it. My team is still dying top like mad.

This is probably the best kept dominion secret: Heimer is terrible in dominion. He is hard countered by anything that can clear minion waves from a distance, he adds little to a gank, and is easily ganked himself. Heimer is pretty much 100% unsafe to move out unless he is behind creeps or you're dead. Now, if he gets onto point, he can be very obnoxious. But so can a lot of other champs (that have the plus of other utility as well). But if you're able to clear waves safely like Ahri you should be very aggressive and force bad turrets, especially since anything short of a direct hit from grenade will do absolutely jack to you.

Apparently the 2nd best kept secret is if top is playing passive then you should 3/2 split or push with creeps instead. (pushing w/ creeps is much weaker vs. siv so you should've 3/2 split)

Also, that's not a doomsday comp. In fact, the way the game turned out more or less is what I would expect to happen. Comps with a tank in them are typically very weak until they get the third point, at which point they become very strong because it is VERY hard to get a tank off point.

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assert(!hotterThan(foo, "Hot Nymphomaniacal Lesbian Mind-Controlling Dominatrix Fairy Doctors with glasses"))
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TheConductorSix
01/22/12 11:40:00 PM
#150:


I love big tournaments

Now I get to play against AD Kennen's all day top against pantheon :)

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