Leebo86 posted... I know you're obsessed with good and evil and atheism, pjbasis, because you've brought it up in other atheism topics in the past. It's really not all that interesting to me.
Obsessed? I'm sensing I upset you in some way. If you didn't feel like discussing this anymore you could have just said so.
KingButz posted... Are you saying that you believe that there is nothing truly good or bad?
Imagine you are living in continual fear, being constantly raped and beaten while your family members are brutally murdered in front of your very eyes. Are you saying that there could possibly be a situation in which this would be anything but bad?
To who? To me? Yeah that would be bad for me, but that has nothing to do with absolute rights and wrongs.
From: Haguile | #082 My purpose for feeling is a bunch of things that I personally love. People have different reasons for living. Goals, dreams, that kind of thing. I have my goals and I live to complete them. The concept of death doesn't particularly bother me, so long as I get to accomplish what I want before that happens. But that's why living is fun.
So you ask what the harm is in murdering people randomly, and I answer you this. By killing people before their time to go arrives, you are not allowing them to do what they really wanted to do. You aren't just "returning them to nothing" you are taking away their purpose. And I'm not saying that you can simply kill someone who has done all he could do, because you see, to people who don't believe in God there is purpose in everything we do.
Just being there with friends, talking, laughing, having fun is something that's worth not for the sake of something else, but for itself. It can't last forever, but just living is...enjoyable. I find meaning in that.
We are not resisting theft for nothing.
Let me put it this way. You say that it's the same as always being dead since the ending is always the same, but that's not the point.
It's like being given the choice of having your big TV screen stolen now or after the Superbowl. The end result is the same but goddamn it having the TV for that game was nice. That TV is your life, and the game is your time on earth.
Still reading through this topic, but I wanted to point out this post was excellent and extremely informative and I greatly appreciate it.
Thanks.
--
yE frE me Kweku Ananse Papa me:http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1508/masterplumgm3.jpg
From: pjbasis | #151 Obsessed? I'm sensing I upset you in some way. If you didn't feel like discussing this anymore you could have just said so.
I'm not upset, and maybe obsessed was the wrong word, because I didn't mean it in a derogatory way, I was just trying to say my interest in this was starting to decrease significantly.
From: pjbasis | #151 KingButz posted... Are you saying that you believe that there is nothing truly good or bad?
Imagine you are living in continual fear, being constantly raped and beaten while your family members are brutally murdered in front of your very eyes. Are you saying that there could possibly be a situation in which this would be anything but bad?
To who? To me? Yeah that would be bad for me, but that has nothing to do with absolute rights and wrongs.
Of course it does! If you cannot find a situation in which having that happen to someone would be anything but bad and wrong, then you would say that it is absolutely wrong!
--
My Japanese alter-ego. Hey all this is Bartz btw.
Leebo86 posted... I'm not upset, and maybe obsessed was the wrong word, because I didn't mean it in a derogatory way, I was just trying to say my interest in this was starting to decrease significantly.
Ah, alright. Yeah I have some homework I'm supposed to be doing, so naturally I find it the perfect time to engage in a lengthy philosophical discussion.
KingButz posted... Of course it does! If you cannot find a situation in which having that happen to someone would be anything but bad and wrong, then you would say that it is absolutely wrong!
Alright, then I counter that it is very beneficial to my attacker.
Do you really do everything you do because you think it will be beneficial to you in your next life, whatever that may be?
=/
As I stated before, I don't do things because of the reward, I do things because they are good and right under my religious beliefs and thus it makes me feel good to do them. Without those beliefs though I don't know what I would fall back on and I question if there would be anything to fall back on at all, though from this topic I believe I am starting to understand.
Hence the question. Don't know if that made sense whatsoever.
From: Takfloyd_mkII__ | #101 And this is why religion is the filth of humanity.
These people are seriously so selfish that they are only good to each other as a sort of delusional grown-up Santa Claus Sees You belief.
People like you make me sick.
Well its wonderful to know not being from a particular paradigm and thus not being able to fully understand life with a different set of beliefs but being thoughtful enough to think its important to learn about other people's views makes you sick at me!
--
yE frE me Kweku Ananse Papa me:http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1508/masterplumgm3.jpg
From: Leebo86 | #154 Human morality doesn't exist without humans. I guess it wouldn't prevent some other species' morality from existing.
We call it human morality because humans are the only reasoning beings that we know of. If our planet had another species capable of objective reason, would they have their own sense of morality. Would it hypothetically be ok for them to cheat or murder because their morality allowed it?
--
My Japanese alter-ego. Hey all this is Bartz btw.
From: KingButz | #159 We call it human morality because humans are the only reasoning beings that we know of. If our planet had another species capable of objective reason, would they have their own sense of morality. Would it hypothetically be ok for them to cheat or murder because their morality allowed it?
Who am I to say what is right or wrong for some alien civilization a billion light years away.
Rather than assuming my experience applies to them at all, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that I have no clue what their society feels is right or wrong. That's cool with me.
From: pjbasis | #157 KingButz posted... Of course it does! If you cannot find a situation in which having that happen to someone would be anything but bad and wrong, then you would say that it is absolutely wrong!
Alright, then I counter that it is very beneficial to my attacker.
beneficial =/= right. A homeless man could kill all of his competition and it would be very beneficial to him.
--
My Japanese alter-ego. Hey all this is Bartz btw.
From: Leebo86 | #160 Who am I to say what is right or wrong for some alien civilization a billion light years away.
Rather than assuming my experience applies to them at all, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that I have no clue what their society feels is right or wrong. That's cool with me.
I guess my question is then, if society feels that something is right, does that make it right?
--
My Japanese alter-ego. Hey all this is Bartz btw.
Well, "what society feels is right" is merely an approximation of what lots of people feel is right or wrong at any given time. It can change, and always will.
So why did you open up with a scenario that implied harmful = wrong?
Give me a situation in which that level of harm could ever be good.
From: Leebo86 | #164 Well, "what society feels is right" is merely an approximation of what lots of people feel is right or wrong at any given time. It can change, and always will.
But I feel what you are saying here is that slavery in the eighteenth century was fine because that was the consensus of the people.
--
My Japanese alter-ego. Hey all this is Bartz btw.
From: masterplum | Posted: 1/16/2012 11:35:07 AM | #152 Still reading through this topic, but I wanted to point out this post was excellent and extremely informative and I greatly appreciate it.
From: KingButz | #165 But I feel what you are saying here is that slavery in the eighteenth century was fine because that was the consensus of the people.
Obviously it's not good from our perspective. Thoughts on slavery have changed. It was right to them.
From: pjbasis | #167 We're going in a circle here.
I said it could be good for the attacker to inflict such harm.
You keep saying it could be good for the attacker to inflict that harm. I don't believe that. How could inflicting that harm be good or beneficial for the attacker?
--
My Japanese alter-ego. Hey all this is Bartz btw.
But then there is no morality at all beyond falling in line with society. What the majority says is good is good. For example, gay marriage must be bad because every time it comes up for a referendum, the voters reject it.
Even this does not get you away from a moral absolute: falling in line is good. And as far as moral absolutes go, I would not choose this one!
--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link.
I'm sure some people thought slavery was bad back then. As I said before, "what society feels is right" is just an approximation of what everyone feels, and there's always going to be some disagreement.
From: pjbasis | #170 It could just give him pleasure.
The fact that it has happened or can happen means there was some incentive.
I understand the argument that you are trying to make, but it just doesn't make any sense to me. It bothers me the only counter-argument that I can offer to that is the very utilitarian one; that the amount of pleasure the attacker receives would not outweigh the intense suffering received by his victims.
Anyway, I think I will bow out here as the differences in our viewpoints are obviously without reconciliation. I might suggest if you are interested in exploring the argument further to look up Sam Harris and his book The Moral Landscape. He presents my arguments far more convincingly than I could.
--
My Japanese alter-ego. Hey all this is Bartz btw.
I'm sure some people thought slavery was bad back then. As I said before, "what society feels is right" is just an approximation of what everyone feels, and there's always going to be some disagreement.
So what is actually right is what each individual thinks? Well, that seems much better, though I've still got some reservations (i.e. Smuffin has said that people should be free to sell themselves into slavery if they wish- should we allow this as a society?) This boils down to the single moral absolute: do what you think is good.
--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link.
I kind of already said above that everything comes down to individuals, in terms of how one will decide something is right or wrong. Biology will have some impact, culture will have some impact, but it will still be an individual thought process.
if you go down to the "Conjecture" part, that's what I believe death/"the afterlife"/"heaven or hell" actually is. As the article suggests, it's an untested hypothesis (and that part of the article is entitled "Conjecture") but it's quite interesting and to me, a massive chemical trip caused by a dying brain makes billions of times more sense than an afterlife or the ridiculous religious ideas of heaven (lol) and hell (lol).
--
ya right you are case the sunglasses have 3d so i can see right threw their clothes -ertyu (about wearing sunglasses to stare at boobs without girls noticing)
masterplum posted... So I personally don't understand how people don't believe in something. I can completely understand agnosticism but a belief in nothing at all confuses me. I don't understand why you would even bother doing anything productive or moral at all.
So I'm curious, what is your purpose for living? Does the concept of death bother you?
I would argue that the belief that there is no such higher power is only confusing was because you were raised to believe otherwise. i find it just as confusing that people would belief in a higher power based solely on faith. It may be the case that there is such a higher power that simply chooses not to intervene in human life, but if that is the case than his existence is irrelevant as far as I am concerned.
To address the other questions: I choose to be a good person for two reasons. First, the world is better off if everyone is follows "good morals," and I personally find my life more enjoyable if I behave as such. I would believe that people should behave morally for the sake of it rather than to appease some higher power.
On your last two questions, I dont think life has an intrinsic purpose, but my "purpose" is simply to improve my own life as much as possible without unjustly harming that of others. And yes, the concept of death bothers me, but I have accepted it as fact of life.
Morality is something that has evolved with human beings over time. There is no objective morality, only that which has developed through group selection over thousands of years.
From: KingButz | #159 Would it hypothetically be ok for them to cheat or murder because their morality allowed it?
Do you think it's okay for lions to have sex with multiple female lions and murder other animals? Because that's well within their morality. Lions are acting under the same biological impulses (though perhaps more basic) that humans are.
--
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog
You guys are not rigorous enough with these discussions. If you really wanna talk philosophy of ethics, you gotta be prepared to define morality and explain exactly why it is you do what you do.
As it stands most of the people in this topic are no better than religious people, just acting on emotional good will or faith that "it's just better this way."
Do you think it's okay for lions to have sex with multiple female lions and murder other animals? Because that's well within their morality. Lions are acting under the same biological impulses (though perhaps more basic) that humans are.
That's not the question. The question is: if a lion were magically inserted into the body of a human, would it be okay for them to have sex with multiple mates?
--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link.
That's fine, you're putting religion and lack of religion on the same level.
There are a lot of arrogant atheists though that laugh at religion and then turn around and blindly follow another, less spiritual, but no less ungrounded, dogma.
Maybe you're uninterested, but you should really read about the is/ought problem. It's like the last step you need to just denounce morality altogether.
Morality is something that has evolved with human beings over time. There is no objective morality, only that which has developed through group selection over thousands of years.
I would say that the understanding of morality is something that has evolved with human beings over time. I think that we are just starting to understand what moral truth is.
--
My Japanese alter-ego. Hey all this is Bartz btw.
From: KingButz | #188 I would say that the understanding of morality is something that has evolved with human beings over time. I think that we are just starting to understand what moral truth is.
There's no moral truth though, that's what I'm saying. Only what you believe to be the truth based on what your neurological impulses are telling you.
--
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "What about the lion from Lion King?" - SuperNiceDog
I have different views on what right and wrong are, compared to good and evil.
Right is to operate within the rules of society Wrong is to break them
These terms don't necessarily coincide with good and evil. For a person living in a society that believes honor is more important than life, killing a child who dishonors them is right, and in said society would likely prevent the lives of the rest of their family from becoming much worse.
However, such an action, would be evil in my eyes. Good and evil are based on one's own moral compass for the most part. We as humans have a base set of ethos hardwired into us (most of us at any rate), which is why most of us share a common sense of good and evil.
Both right and good can be mutually exclusive some times, and in those times it lies within us to decide between them. I have absolutely no doubt that the people behind the crusades or the holocaust, or what have you, thought that their actions were good, and they had the power to make it right in their society. This obviously is something the majority of humanity sees as evil, myself included. But they honestly believed they were making the world a better place, and if their ideas were correct instead of ours, then they would be good instead of those of us who stopped them.
So yes, morality and ethics are by and large non-terms. That doesn't stop them from having huge impacts on our lives, and they are certainly worth discussing and debating.
I'll end this with an example. Lets say your eternal afterlife was based on the amount of suffering within this life. Those who suffer more, are rewarded more in their eternal second lives. If this were reality, wouldn't the act of making people suffer be a good act? Would it not be better for society to deem harming others right?
--
MMBN style fighting game made by me in the link below! http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/games/184947-b8bn
You guys are not rigorous enough with these discussions. If you really wanna talk philosophy of ethics, you gotta be prepared to define morality and explain exactly why it is you do what you do.
It seems like you've spent a lot of time thinking this through and have an answer that you find rigorous and satisfying. And maybe you spend your time on the board just waiting for topics like this to come up so you can come off as superior. But just so you know, this is not a philosophy board. People didn't post in here because they "really want to talk philosophy of ethics" and had done all their homework on the subject ahead of time. Someone happened to post this topic raising this question, and people responded to the best of their ability because that is what you do on a message board. So you can probably get off your high horse now.
--
From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch
So I personally don't understand how people don't believe in something. I can completely understand agnosticism but a belief in nothing at all confuses me. I don't understand why you would even bother doing anything productive or moral at all.
Well I don't believe in fee will, so for me that's the answer. The atoms of your brain are governed by the laws of physics, and for these sizes Newton's Laws are applicable and they are deterministic. A simple explanation for why anybody does anything is that the laws of physics mandate it.
So I'm curious, what is your purpose for living?
I don't know that I have a purpose for living. If what you're really asking is "Why don't you just kill yourself" it would be because there is a very very strong survival instinct in all animals.
Does the concept of death bother you?
Yes and no. I am scared of dying, but at the same time I am glad I will not live forever. Even if we end up in eternal paradise, after the first million billion billion trillion billion million trillion years, is it really going to be fun any more? I think I would be bored to death long before that. Maybe even after a few hundred or thousand.