Board 8 > Restore America Now! (Official Ron Paul 2012 topic)

(+) Yeah! (+)

What a shocker, Ron Paul supporter Kelly Clarkson actually knows the words to the star spangled banner and how to sing it properly!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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why is it important to know the words to the star spangled banner

From: Mr Lasastryke | #352
why is it important to know the words to the star spangled banner

Well when you're hired to sing it in front of an audience of hundreds of millions knowing the words is generally a good idea.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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So she probably would've known the words anyway, even if she weren't a Ron Paul supporter.

From: Mr Lasastryke | #354
So she probably would've known the words anyway, even if she weren't a Ron Paul supporter.

You'd think so, but recent history suggests otherwise!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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The point is that she doesn't need a teleprompter like Romney supporter Miley Cyrus

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_foolmo_
'he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance' - ertyu quoting Tidus

Ahh.

Best Englishman since Churchill?

Ugghhh, of course you like Churchill.

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"What I like to drink most is wine that belongs to others." - Diogenes the Cynic

Piers: "But aren't there times where you have to be the policeman of the world?"
Paul: "No"
Piers: "Really??"

Is this such a difficult concept for people to understand now? These people run daily political shows and have been involved with politics and the news for years, and they still haven't learned anything?

There may never be times when you have to be the world policeman, but there are times when an empire has to act, or else lose its ability to maintain its status as an empire. See: China in the 18th/19th centuries.

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Im willing to bet 90% of the American public doesn't want us to be an empire.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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Well, we are an empire in fact, and have been so since 1941. There is a lot of power and prosperity associated with it. Also, if you rephrased the question from, "Should the United States be an empire?" to "Should the United States promote freedom, democracy, and prosperity around the world?" you would get a lot of yes answers.

The other thing, as with that China example, is that countries that become weaker end up getting bullied around even on their own land. By 1900 the Chinese government had less power in China than the British, French, German, Japanese, etc. governments. And of course, while China was as wealthy as Europe as late as the late 1700s, by 1900 it was vastly vastly poorer on a per capita basis.

So I guess there are situations where you have to act: an example being World War II. The reason you have to act is that the enemy will not leave you alone if you do not. Our choice was to fight Germany then, wait until Germany had beaten the UK and USSR and then fight them, or submit. As a non-imperial country these situations arise rarely, but as a leading empire, they are not rare, because loads of things in the world directly impact an empire's interests.

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We shouldn't take war off the table completely, but our threshold for involvement should be higher than it is now.

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The funny thing is that I'm fairly confident that from December 1941 to 2006, if you polled the American public on whether we should do the things an empire does, but without using the word empire, you would have gotten majorities, and fairly big majorities, through that whole time.

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Also, if you rephrased the question from, "Should the United States be an empire?" to "Should the United States promote freedom, democracy, and prosperity around the world?" you would get a lot of yes answers.

That's the point though, it's all propaganda.



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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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This empire discussion reminds me of this letter, sent by the Mongol Khan Hulagu to Qutuz, Sultan of Egypt, right after the Mongols had sacked Baghdad. (Note: Hulagu was not a Muslim or Christian for that matter, although he cites the Quran.)

From the King of Kings in the East and the West, the mighty Khan: In your name, O God, You who laid out the earth and raised up the skies. Let al-Malik al-Muzaffar Qutuz, who is of the race of Mamluks who fled before our swords into this country, who enjoyed its comforts and then killed its rulers, let al-Malik al-Muzzafar Qutuz know, as well as the Emirs of his state and the people of his kingdom, in Egypt and in the adjoining countries, that we are the army of God on His earth. He created us from his wrath and urged us against those who incurred His anger. In all lands there are examples to admonish you and to deter you from challenging our resolve. Be warned by the fate of others and hand over your power to us before the veil is torn and you are sorry and your errors are rebound upon you. For we do not pity those who weep, nor are we tender to those who complain. You have heard that we have conquered the lands and cleansed the earth of corruption and killed most of the people. Yours to flee: ours to pursue. And what land will shelter you, what road save you; what country protect you? You have no deliverance from our swords and you cannot avoid dreading us for our horses are swift, our arrows do pierce, our swords like thunder-bolts, our hearts like rocks and our numbers like sand. Fortresses cannot withstand us; armies are of no avail in fighting us. Your prayers against us will not be heard, for you have eaten forbidden things and your speech is foul, you betray oaths and promises, and disobedience and fractiousness prevail among you. Be informed that your lot will be shame and humiliation. "Today you are recommenced with the punishment of humiliation, because you were so proud on earth without right and for your wrongdoing" (Quran, xlvi, 20). "Those who have done wrong will know to what end they will revert" (Quran,xxvi. 227). Those who make war against us are sorry; those who seek our protection are safe. If you submit to our orders and conditions, then your rights and duties are the same as ours. If you resist you will be destroyed. Do not, therefore, destroy yourselves with you own hands. He who is warned should be on his guard. You are convinced that we are the infidels, and we are convinced that you are debauchers. God, who determines all and judges all, has urged us against you. What much for you is little for us, the honorable for you is base for us. Your kings should expect nothing from us except humiliation. Therefore, do not wait long but quickly answer us before the fire of war is set and the spark is thrown over you then You will not have from us dignity, nor comfort, nor protection, nor sanctuary and you will suffer at our hands the most fearful calamity, and your land will be empty of you. By writing to you we have dealt equitably with you and have awakened you by warning you. Now we have no other purpose but you. Peace be with both us and you, and with all of those who follow divine guidance, who fear the consequences of evil and who obey the Supreme King. Say to Egypt, Hulagu has come with swords unsheathed and sharp. The mightiest of her people will become humble and he will send their children to join the aged. "

I find the Mongols the empire that was the most honest with itself. Every other empire seemingly honestly believed that it was a colossal force for good in the world.

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From: red sox 777 | #361
So I guess there are situations where you have to act: an example being World War II.

Congrats, you gave the most recent example of a justified war for America.

When you are bombed by a nation, then retaliate by declaring war and establishing military presence in foreign territory, that is not imperialism, and it certainly isn't being the policeman of the world. It's self-defense.

When you leave military bases and troops all over the world in many different countries, long after any war in the region has ended, and use nationless terrorist attacks as an excuse to continue these expansions and invasions that are completely unsupported by Congress, that is blatant imperialism.

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_foolmo_
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Indeed it is. Which is why the question we should be asking is: should America be an empire? Right now people want the things that come with empire but don't want to be an empire or to be "imperialist." There should be an honest discussion about this in politics, but there is not.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
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red sox 777 posted...
Indeed it is. Which is why the question we should be asking is: should America be an empire? Right now people want the things that come with empire but don't want to be an empire or to be "imperialist." There should be an honest discussion about this in politics, but there is not.

What exactly do we have now that "comes with empire" that we are in danger of losing if we cease imperialistic practices?

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From: red sox 777 | #367
Right now people want the things that come with empire

Inflation, decay of liberty, terrorism? No thanks.

It might SEEM like Americans want an imperial type foreign policy, but if you look at all the war propaganda, it's 100% based in self-defense. Even saying that we need to "spread freedom and democracy around the world" invokes a little too much of an imperialist mindset. I think a lot of Americans would not support that statement. That's why most politicians just say that other countries are a threat to us and our allies and we need to stop them.

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_foolmo_
'You are obviously intelligent and insightful' - Sir Chris about me

We're dangerously close to losing our global currency domination, if you care about that sort of thing (HINT: the federal government does. a lot.)

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SmartMuffin posted...
We're dangerously close to losing our global currency domination, if you care about that sort of thing (HINT: the federal government does. a lot.)

...To whom? It's not like the Euro is a credible challenger right now.

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From: metroid composite | #371
...To whom? It's not like the Euro is a credible challenger right now.

To actual resources that have actual value, like gold and oil and even labor, all of which America has been rapidly losing to foreign countries. The US needs a sound currency to represent its wealth, because we don't have anything else (other than a military, of course, which is essentially our global currency at this point).

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_foolmo_
'but that statement is something only an Aspergers patient would say' - UltimaterializerX

What exactly do we have now that "comes with empire" that we are in danger of losing if we cease imperialistic practices?

Power. Prestige. The ability to spread our ideology to other countries. Basically, all the traditional reasons for empire.

It might SEEM like Americans want an imperial type foreign policy, but if you look at all the war propaganda, it's 100% based in self-defense. Even saying that we need to "spread freedom and democracy around the world" invokes a little too much of an imperialist mindset. I think a lot of Americans would not support that statement. That's why most politicians just say that other countries are a threat to us and our allies and we need to stop them.

Every empire through history has used the same rhetoric of self-defense, so I don't think we can say that Americans don't want power and prestige based on that. The Roman Republic gained its massive empire through a series of wars, all of which I'm sure most the Roman people honestly believed were justified wars in which they were in the right. Defensive wars even. But the Roman army was very good at warfare, and they kept winning, until they had a massive empire on 3 continents.

And once that was accomplished, the people thought the existence of the empire was a very good thing. So pervasive was this belief that a thousand years later, people in the successor states still dreamed of the Roman Empire as the greatest thing ever.

So no, I think many Americans really do want to be the preeminent nation in the world, same as Rome and China.

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To actual resources that have actual value, like gold and oil and even labor, all of which America has been rapidly losing to foreign countries. The US needs a sound currency to represent its wealth, because we don't have anything else (other than a military, of course, which is essentially our global currency at this point).

The wealth of the US has always been in credit. Dollars are just credit basically. It's been this way since at least World War I.

I'm not sure what exactly a sounder currency would be good for, actually. Inflation is not a problem except for people on fixed incomes, and is a boon for just as many other people. Sure, it'll be more expensive when you go on vacation in another country, but on the other hand, it will be easier for American businesses to compete internationally (see Nintendo and Sony's troubles with the strong yen recently). China actively tries to keep its currency weak.

The government has a strong interest in having the world's reserve currency, but I'm not sure it's so important for the people. If we don't have the world's reserve currency, the government will be forced to either spend less, raise taxes, or pay more interest on borrowed money. The pressure should be enough to force them to spend less.

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From: red sox 777 | #374
The wealth of the US has always been in credit. Dollars are just credit basically. It's been this way since at least World War I.

Right, but not until recently has all the stuff backing our credit started to drain away to foreign countries. With our service-based economy now, we can't rely on credit like that anymore. Evidence: last 10 years.

Inflation is not a problem except for people on fixed incomes

Exactly, and America's current business strategy is to keep poor people on fixed incomes, while inflating costs, which is effectively stealing money from the poor and giving it to the rich.

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_foolmo_
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Power. Prestige. The ability to spread our ideology to other countries. Basically, all the traditional reasons for empire.

So nothing of value will be lost. Let's do this.

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From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch

http://www.vice.com/read/yeah-ron-paul-is-racist-after-all-sorry

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Inflation is not a problem except for people on fixed incomes

This isn't true at all. You can argue that in the very long run, since wages eventually adjust as well, it's a net neutral, although the Austrian school has pretty thoroughly documented that the creation of new money results in a net gain to its first users (nearly always the big banks) and a net loss to its final users (nearly always lower class workers).

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Right, but not until recently has all the stuff backing our credit started to drain away to foreign countries. With our service-based economy now, we can't rely on credit like that anymore. Evidence: last 10 years.

It's nothing new. More wealth was lost on paper in one day in 1929 when US markets crashed than the total damage from World War I. I'm not sure what stuff backing our credit has been lost- if you mean manufacturing jobs, services are just as good for that purpose. Better, because nowadays it would be impossible to maintain our current level of wealth based on manufacturing- a level far higher than a few decades ago, in a world that is more advanced than a few decades ago. We could be the workshop of the world before, but that isn't nearly so profitable now because other countries can also manufacture goods.

We've lost political credibility, but that's the most serious loss to US credit as far as I can see.

Exactly, and America's current business strategy is to keep poor people on fixed incomes, while inflating costs, which is effectively stealing money from the poor and giving it to the rich.

Not really, inflation tends to affect people who have a lot of standing wealth more than people who are working.

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This isn't true at all. You can argue that in the very long run, since wages eventually adjust as well, it's a net neutral, although the Austrian school has pretty thoroughly documented that the creation of new money results in a net gain to its first users (nearly always the big banks) and a net loss to its final users (nearly always lower class workers).

Yes, inflation helps out those who are leveraged. So our hyperlevered banks would stand to gain a lot from it. Strangely enough we haven't had much inflation yet though, despite all the money printing going on.

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Strangely enough we haven't had much inflation yet though, despite all the money printing going on.

Sure we have. It just isn't reflected in the statistics provided to you by the government. Gee, I wonder why THAT could be!!!

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From: SMOKEDOG42O | #377
http://www.vice.com/read/yeah-ron-paul-is-racist-after-all-sorry

Man, probably my favorite thing about RP is how anytime people try to criticize him, it backfires so nicely.

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_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram

I really can't get over how ridiculous it is that people are so willing to accept the government measures of things like unemployment and inflation. Aside from the completely obvious conflict of interest in play, both of those statistics are just so overwhelmingly and obviously inherently flawed on their face that to cite them in an argument is to expose your own ignorance.

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foolm0ron posted...
From: SMOKEDOG42O | #377
http://www.vice.com/read/yeah-ron-paul-is-racist-after-all-sorry
Man, probably my favorite thing about RP is how anytime people try to criticize him, it backfires so nicely.

Just playing devil's advocate. I don't have much of an opinion on RP.

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Parroting the same tired cliches that the mainstream media AND the conservative media trumpet is hardly a devil's advocate.

Speaking of Lew Rockwell though, I just watched him on Freedom Watch and he didn't ONCE mention anything about hating black people. Amazing!

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What is flawed about inflation?

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Seriously, what is wrong with the inflation statistic that makes it so horrible (as opposed to merely not exactly accurate)?

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Well, there's the fact that it doesn't include food and energy, quite possibly the two largest, most important, and most volatile expenditures of the average lower and middle class family.

There's also the "substitution effect" which is a complete and total joke.

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Gas is cheaper than it was in the summer of 2008 right before the crash. So adding it in would make inflation smaller. Food, yeah. But as long as you're consistent with the same standard across time periods, it's a good stat to compare to how we were doing in other time periods.

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SmartMuffin posted...
Well, there's the fact that it doesn't include food and energy, quite possibly the two largest, most important, and most volatile expenditures of the average lower and middle class family.

There's also the "substitution effect" which is a complete and total joke.

This.

Inflation statistics are the biggest lie the government tries to sell you.

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Gas is cheaper than it was in the summer of 2008 right before the crash

And it's also significantly more expensive than it was a year ago. Energy doesn't just mean gasoline though, it also includes say, the price of heating your home, which never seems to go down.

But as long as you're consistent with the same standard across time periods

They aren't. They change the formulas almost every year. And, SHOCKING, the changes always cause the reported numbers to be less than they were previously.

If you're really curious, spend some time here.

http://www.shadowstats.com/

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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Okay, so based on that site, real inflation has been uniformly higher than reported for many years. But recent inflation still looks no higher than the few years before the crash.

I mean, either way, I think my point stands. Inflation hasn't been as high as you would expect given the massive money printing that has happened. The other shoe could still fall soon, but it hasn't just yet.

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Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick
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So, if there's no inflation, why do you suppose it is that gold and silver keep going up. Before you blame all of that on Glenn Beck, what about the Canadian Dollar and Aussie Dollar and Swiss Franc (until they neutered it) rapidly gaining against USD?

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Because the market expects inflation in the future because of current money printing? Because gold is a safe asset in hard times? Because gold is a great bubble to ride for profit? There are any number of reasons for it.

Sheesh, I'm not disagreeing that current policies will lead to inflation. It just hasn't arrived in a big way yet.

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But there already is SOME inflation, more than they are telling us about. The substitution effect masks a lot of it. Some of it is hidden by the companies themselves through lowering quality standards, lowering administrative costs (say, by firing employees), or the infamous "grocery shrink-ray"

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http://www.buzzfeed.com/jpmoore/50-examples-of-the-ron-paul-meme

These are dumb as hell but some are funny

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_foolmo_
'Ulti is like when your parents post something on your facebook status' - Sir Cobain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/06/nevada-caucus-results-late

Guess Nevada is way worse at rigging the votes than Iowa... they didn't even make it seem halfway legit!

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_foolmo_
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/07/us-usa-fbi-extremists-idUSTRE81600V20120207

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You'd think people in Las Vegas would be all about Ron Paul.

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